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Starting this thread to continue from discussion started in the rumours thread.
The ski is still a work in progress. I'm confident it will break new ground and contribute to the sport in terms of how terrain is covered and how skiing is sensed and experienced --- for the better.
The thread and discussion energizes what I'm doing and thinking, although I feel independent of how others perceive of it.. in terms of both positive and negative comments.
Magic_CarveThe Meathammer is essentially a full reverse camber with the center portion flattened to assist landings, and the remaining rocker bits boosted up to turbo-charge carved takeoffs, and assist with pow-carves.
The AK (new since starting the thread) is a full reverse camber and not for landing airs on hardpack (due to instability of reverse camber.)
KneeDrop, not sure the vid you are referring, the best vid is Shake-a-leg, which is early-morning hardpack carving:
Pretty sure the issue with the shudder on outside ski is due to the tail section not tracking as intensely as the nose section due to it simply not being wide enough (I can just feel it.) When I ski the Heartslayer, I engage the entire edge, and if it's not all getting pressure evenly along the whole edge, it'll start shuddering on the slacker parts, ie the rear of the ski... you can see the rear of the ski wobbling around.
(This shudder doesn't happen in pow of course, but I'm sure with a wider tail, the tracks I leave in pow will be even tighter.)
The solution is pretty easy, widen the tail (or thin out the tip, which I don't want.) The wider tail should give the rear the hold it needs to track in balance with the front of the ski on hardpack.
Then I want a longer ski to get higher speed in pow (with the same overall shape.) That's the AK model and the one I envisage taking to Alaska with me at some point in the future (and doing some touring afterward for people who want to try it out.) -- basically the Meathammer with a full reverse camber and pushed up to around 195, maybe 2m. Mofo shit.
ive read parts and pieces of this thread, but after watching that vid they look like they would do terrible at high speeds. youre bombing down, initiate a turn, and boom your now dead and tomahawking down the hill
.Washingtonive read parts and pieces of this thread, but after watching that vid they look like they would do terrible at high speeds. youre bombing down, initiate a turn, and boom your now dead and tomahawking down the hill
They work best in pow/soft/medium-soft snow, short/medium-short radius turns. Outside of that they will shudder (as seen in the video) due to high pressure. The ski gives feedback, and you can tell when they're in their zone. They do have a zone they like to be skiied in.
I can slide a turn at high speed but the snow needs to be pretty soft, and I can slide the entire length of the ski (not just tail) so that's unique.
Washington posted a good initial obeservation about wiping out at high speed. I woke up thinking about an answer to that observation, and I would put a safety warning sticker on the ski.
"This ski (like all skis) has a zone where it performs best. Due to its very unique design, please start on beginner runs and when comfortable (and in command) only then progress onto more challenging terrain. Any new terrain and features are an incremental learning process. Have a very good idea of what to expect in advance before you move over any sort of terrain.
SFButtholefor fucks sake man, you've tested the waters of NS and have been rejected multiple times. Maybe head over to TGR and get some different feedback
Well, I posted it over there but they censored it... a while back.
You know, for all the work I put into the Colab comp. They didn't even send me (was it everyone?) an official thank-you letter, let alone a free copy of the DVD. They didn't even put my skiing into the warm-up video when the entries were being submitted. As I said somewhere else... just move on if you don't like the thread, you'll save a ton of energy letting it get you pissed off.
Heart_and_SoulWell, I posted it over there but they censored it... a while back.
You know, for all the work I put into the Colab comp. They didn't even send me (was it everyone?) an official thank-you letter, let alone a free copy of the DVD. They didn't even put my skiing into the warm-up video when the entries were being submitted. As I said somewhere else... just move on if you don't like the thread, you'll save a ton of energy letting it get you pissed off.
If I wanted to see low speed skidded turns on short skis I would sit on the side of a beginner's run and watch a lesson full of children ski past. That's why your skiing didn't make it into anything.
rozboonIf I wanted to see low speed skidded turns on short skis I would sit on the side of a beginner's run and watch a lesson full of children ski past. That's why your skiing didn't make it into anything.
I really do appreciate your feedback, and will challenge you to a ski off if/when the opportunity arises..... do you have vids of you skiing?
... the last third of my colab video was pow. My TGR thread was pretty huge at the time, and I'm sure there would've been people interested to see it in there just out of curiosty and novelty. I don't know why they didn't at least put it in the warm-up vid, there were some interesting shots. I submitted on the first or second day when entries opened. I've moved on anyway. I had some on-slope footage of me, and I bet they got some good ideas from my vid as many people do from a lot of my content. Haha.
Heart_and_SoulI really do appreciate your feedback, and will challenge you to a ski off if/when the opportunity arises..... do you have vids of you skiing?
Next thing you'll probably challenge me to a dance off or something.
What would you judge it on, who could generate the least sluff?
Why would someone want to watch something they could see an approximation of 200 times a day on any skifield, anywhere - a moderately competent skier, skiing down a very ordinary run - albeit on glorified Figgles, in a stance that would make a ski instructor cringe?
rozboonWhat would you judge it on, who could generate the least sluff?
If it were pow, sluff would be a component... I think a good way to compare heartcarving is skiing a long groomer, and then having 3 criteria:
1) time
2) splitting the run into 3 columns, and counting how many times a person goes from 1st to 3rd column and back again (like a slalom)
3) calculating heart-rate at top and then bottom (the less change the better, and the lower the better... because adrenaline is bad and endorphins are good)
There could be subjective criteria like sluff and style, but the above would be the basis.
Further, I'd run this comp over multiple hours, like a marathon. I suspect racers would have a hard time sustaining themselves over a long period of time becuase of their burnt out thighs. The run should ideally be closed off to other skiers too.
There should also be music playing too, and you get bonus points for fist-pumping (in the air) in time with it.
Heart_and_SoulIf it were pow, sluff would be a component... I think a good way to compare heartcarving is skiing a long groomer, and then having 3 criteria:
1) time
2) splitting the run into 3 columns, and counting how many times a person goes from 1st to 3rd column and back again (like a slalom)
3) calculating heart-rate at top and then bottom (the less change the better, and the lower the better... because adrenaline is bad and endorphins are good)
There could be subjective criteria like sluff and style, but the above would be the basis.
Further, I'd run this comp over multiple hours, like a marathon. I suspect racers would have a hard time sustaining themselves over a long period of time becuase of their burnt out thighs. The run should ideally be closed off to other skiers too.
There should also be music playing too, and you get bonus points for fist-pumping (in the air) in time with it.
To clarify, you think this would be an example of:
a. good skiing
b. something people would actually want to watch
This is why people think Heartcarving is stupid: your criteria for what is "good" differs so vastly from the enormous majority of skiers.
You are like a car maker that builds a car that will only do 30kph and only works on some roads, then tells everyone that the best way to drive is at 30kph on slightly damp roads with wide shoulders and a solid median barrier, and then you proclaim that your car is the best ever because it is the best at doing 30kph on the aforementioned road, and that you will take on all comers at a competition over who's car is the best at this obscure activity. Then you complain because nobody is interested in your videos of your 30kph car being driven sedately.
The fact that you think adrenaline is bad sets you completely apart from maybe 99.5% of the Newschoolers userbase.
Yeah.. how do you know what 99.5% of NS think? How do you know that no one will like HC'ing given only 1 person has ever tried it and he liked it on piste (but not on jumps)? How do you know racers think their style (or skis) are so perfect when they're under strict FIS rules regarding ski dimensions?
Anyway, when I skied NZ (including Mt Ruapehu) the problem with that trip was that whenever I asked anyone anything about anything, all I got was lies and misinformation. It must have been my Aussie accent or something. I just can't trust your opinion and there's no vids of you skiing.
JakeSmith*Note to mods: This hate and caps-lock is completely warranted and I love all of you beautiful green names :)
I have to say, I actually love the fact that this thread causes so many NS'ers to freak out. Heartcarve goes against the mold of what skiers think skiing is... Much like freeskiing's early days.
RudyGarmischI have to say, I actually love the fact that this thread causes so many NS'ers to freak out. Heartcarve goes against the mold of what skiers think skiing is... Much like freeskiing's early days.
If I had the chance I'd try out the Heartcarve with an open mind. They are probably not real skis but I actually like some of the stuff the guy posts. Heartcarve guy if you're for real just bring a pair out to Hood and it will be no problem to get some honest reviews.
Heart_and_SoulYeah.. how do you know what 99.5% of NS think? How do you know that no one will like HC'ing given only 1 person has ever tried it and he liked it on piste (but not on jumps)? How do you know racers think their style (or skis) are so perfect when they're under strict FIS rules regarding ski dimensions?
Anyway, when I skied NZ (including Mt Ruapehu) the problem with that trip was that whenever I asked anyone anything about anything, all I got was lies and misinformation. It must have been my Aussie accent or something. I just can't trust your opinion and there's no vids of you skiing.
Resort to ad hominem if you like, but I say that for a variety of reasons.
Newschoolers, in general, are the first to climb all over the hype train and get excited about anything with even a modicum of merit. I don't see a queue of NS'ers lining up to start Heartcarving. Considering the pure distilled shit that NS has got excited about in the past, a product has to be held in exceptionally low regard for the current mixture of disdain and apathy to occur.
At the end of the day it's basically laughable. The reason nobody is hyped about it is because you're trying to build hype about skiing in a very ordinary manner on a pair of wonky skis. I've said it before and I will say it again, there is nothing revolutionary, noteworthy or exciting in the slightest about either the skis or the way that you use them.
To use another metaphor, it's like you're trying to market going for a walk, except you wear your shoes on the wrong feet and you zig-zag a bit, but you're telling us all that it's a revolutionary new form of transportation and that all other styles of perambulation are somehow comparatively flawed, although only you and 1 other person have ever tried heartwalking and anyone who has watched a video of it can't actually see any particular merit in it over conventional walking. Not to mention heartwalking comes with some sort of strange marketing campaign that sits somewhere between confusing, deluded and obnoxious, and is delivered by someone with a strange fixation about penises.
Wait, no, that last bit is not a metaphor, that's Heartcarving.
Yeah Roz, you're talking nonsense again. I don't even want to do you the favour and break it all down for you (again - like earlier in the thread where I did so already) because I'm not feeling any goodwill from you.
OregonDeadIf I had the chance I'd try out the Heartcarve with an open mind. They are probably not real skis but I actually like some of the stuff the guy posts. Heartcarve guy if you're for real just bring a pair out to Hood and it will be no problem to get some honest reviews.
Well, so far I've got 32 friends ((well they were at one point) so perhaps give or take few) so that should be enough for the Pimp Shit tour. Once I connect with a manufacturer - Burton would be ideal because snowboarders might like to try too and they could also press some skis pretty easily at Craig's then it's on. Please be patient. I might need to setup a petition. I just wonder if getting the Bliss Plug into the ski would be feasible because personally I think that's a gamechanger and will get health freaks interested (like barefoot runners, maybe even surfers or bodyboarders.)
Heart_and_SoulYeah Roz, you're talking nonsense again. I don't even want to do you the favour and break it all down for you (again - like earlier in the thread where I did so already) because I'm not feeling any goodwill from you.
There is a spectacular irony in you saying someone is talking nonsense. Nonsense seems to be your primary export after all, and this thread certainly suffers from a surplus of it.
SmartTrying new things is always fun when it comes to ski design. Keep on thinking different man.
Yeah, thx I hear you.
Also, the different types of woods really interest me. The Heartslayers ended up warping by the end of my trip (not majorly) but enough to warrant concern. I think snowboard guys would be aware of that problem because of the greater stresses a single board goes through while snowboarding rather than 2 skis. Also, having a reverse camber that is really dependable to hold shape over the life of the ski is another concern of mine, given a ski (from what I understand) only holds its camber due to the glue/resin holding it in place after having being set in the press (the wood is otherwise straight in profile before being pressed.) So that concerns me too because of wax irons potentially affecting the glue, and thus the camber. Also, if one is dealing with a reverse camber ski to be used on groomers, then there's going to be more stress than if just skiing pow all day. Lastly, ski upper edge protection - is that still common today?
Wait, you've had an ACL injury and surf (or is that just false) and skate. Maybe you should be doing this. Then again, I'm not selling anything, no business. Maybe never.
Heart_and_SoulWait, you've had an ACL injury and surf (or is that just false) and skate. Maybe you should be doing this. Then again, I'm not selling anything, no business. Maybe never.
The last thing someone who's injured should do is use fucked up form like you...
Also, the different types of woods really interest me. The Heartslayers ended up warping by the end of my trip (not majorly) but enough to warrant concern. I think snowboard guys would be aware of that problem because of the greater stresses a single board goes through while snowboarding rather than 2 skis. Also, having a reverse camber that is really dependable to hold shape over the life of the ski is another concern of mine, given a ski (from what I understand) only holds its camber due to the glue/resin holding it in place after having being set in the press (the wood is otherwise straight in profile before being pressed.) So that concerns me too because of wax irons potentially affecting the glue, and thus the camber. Also, if one is dealing with a reverse camber ski to be used on groomers, then there's going to be more stress than if just skiing pow all day. Lastly, ski upper edge protection - is that still common today?
If you are using glue, yes a wax iron could affect the bond. Epoxies and glue are very different though and heating epoxy after it has set shouldn't affect anything unless you surpass the epoxy's recommended temperature range (probably higher than your iron goes, but again it depends on the epoxy).
Current skis can lose their camber yes, but it typically involves over-stressing or breaking the fiberglass- if you are using an appropriate epoxy though there shouldn't be too much concern as they do provide flex and don't instantly snap the second pressure is applied. Traditional wood skis are typically stored with a block of wood underfoot to keep the camber profile- but it doesn't make sense to do that with a modern ski.
I'm curious as to what kind of warping you have experienced and how many hours you think you've put on your skis.
Surfboard.. I'm getting a rozboon vibe from you where no matter what I say or do it won't be "right" for you. If you want love, don't just copy your heroes, because everyone else is. Be the best, or be the first. That's what Ice-T strives to do.
shin-bang - yeah, it's a bit out of hand.. there really needs to be new information or content to look at.. my stuff is from 2013... people need to try heartcarving on SL skis... why SL skis? Because if the radius isn't tight enough, you won't be feeling the G-forces as strongly enough that you need to in order to start playing with them... And if you aren't feeling inspired to do that.. go on a rollercoaster ride and think how you can translate that feeling onto skis.
Ryan, I'll have to slot you in on the Pimp Shit tour... I challenge anyone. But I want to get the heart-rates checked at top and bottom of runs and have multi-hour sessions.
PoikenzI'm curious as to what kind of warping you have experienced and how many hours you think you've put on your skis.
Thanks for that info... yeah they were custom built in France for $1700 and made of pine with oak sidewalls. After initially getting them and waxing them, I could see one of the skis had less tip rise than the other, and the person who made them said not to bend them while they are hot, (and I might be able to bend them back gently... I'm not sure if he meant that it was due to me... I don't think he precisely knew either.) So I still don't know if the skis came with less tip rise on the one ski, or was caused by me due to the hot ironing. Annoying though.
I skied on them for 3 solid weeks. The amount of g-forces was intense. I don't have them on me now, but they warped lengthways. You couldn't run a wax scaper evenly down the length and have full contact the whole way, you'd always encounter imbalances... the exact amount I'd need to check in the future. It wasn't serious, but I remember the skis weren't as fun at the end of the trip as they were at the beginning in terms of getting a powerful even response... the most stressed areas are going to warp first.
There is a ski available with the camber actually cut from the wood (pre-pressing,) I can't remember the name. Maybe that's a solution, or perhaps wood is not the right material unless is it pre-aged or wrapped in kevlar or something.
I was hoping the snowboard builders would have more knowledge in this area. For any service guys reading, surely you see warped skis and snowboards come through your shop?
Heart_and_SoulThanks for that info... yeah they were custom built in France for $1700 and made of pine with oak sidewalls.
Sounds like you got ripped, good for that french guy though. There are plenty of things that cause warping, grain, uneven heating, dampness in the wood, just to name the ones I'm aware of.
I'm pretty sure that cutting your camber profile out of a solid piece of wood will create an unresponsive and weak ski.
I would agree that there must be something better than wood as there are so many variables with it in terms of finding perfection, maybe one day it will exist.
Heart_and_SoulSurfboard.. I'm getting a rozboon vibe from you where no matter what I say or do it won't be "right" for you. If you want love, don't just copy your heroes, because everyone else is. Be the best, or be the first. That's what Ice-T strives to do.
shin-bang - yeah, it's a bit out of hand.. there really needs to be new information or content to look at.. my stuff is from 2013... people need to try heartcarving on SL skis... why SL skis? Because if the radius isn't tight enough, you won't be feeling the G-forces as strongly enough that you need to in order to start playing with them... And if you aren't feeling inspired to do that.. go on a rollercoaster ride and think how you can translate that feeling onto skis.
Ryan, I'll have to slot you in on the Pimp Shit tour... I challenge anyone. But I want to get the heart-rates checked at top and bottom of runs and have multi-hour sessions.
I actually really get your idea and see what crowd it would attract. I think it might be fun to try them, but I don't think I would ever buy them :/ good luck tho hear carve
shin-bangI actually really get your idea and see what crowd it would attract. I think it might be fun to try them, but I don't think I would ever buy them :/ good luck tho hear carve
Yeah, would you try a 2 wheel electric scooter.. looks like a similar body position to HC...
a ton on ebay for around $400. Skiers that use these are going to get HC pretty quick. I should get one myself but they look more like toys than serious transportation devices. Maybe in a few years when the design+tech matures. My guess is that someone will come up with Heartcarve-type skis before even hearing of them.
This is the most down syndrome thread in the history of NS. Who the fuck would want a ski that you can only ski in 10% of the time? As a sertified ski instructor this ski is terrible for your form. As a avid skier my advice to you is to shut the fuck up and try something else. This is not a good idea, you will fail stop. Blades have been around for years your trying to sell blades saying there something else. DELETE THIS FUCKING THREAD
liam_nowackiAs a sertified ski instructor this ski is terrible for your form. As a avid skier my advice to you is to shut the fuck up and try something else. This is not a good idea, you will fail stop.
But this is freeskiing, he can do whatever the fuck he wants regardless of what you tell him.
The main problem with these skis are that they will operate best at a fairly high terminal velocity..ie they are a deeply parabolic and wide ski that need to be skiied very fast and on edge to feel good. This means wide open and people-free (or rather beginner-free) piste-runs (or else off-piste.) That essentially means closed off runs for this purpose.. like a park.
Think about a turbo-charged car, needing high revs, and being the most at home on an autobahn (no top speed.)
Also, the ski itself will end up warping and with its edges very worn. There needs to be a new type of core and a new type of edge (ideally.) Also, being grounded will help with overall comfort. One of the things I like about this ski is that you can (or should be able to) place even pressure along the front and back of the inside edges of both skis. That's unique, right? Excellent for control and feel.
I had some real blades in 2012 on the Summit Marauder 125 and I skied those as fast as I could (vid) on-piste but while still turning continuously. The main problem there was the backseat position needed to always be on the sweet spot of the edge (and all skis really.) That's why forward waist skis I think are better (for what I want to do.)
Anyway, this whole thread can go on for 5-10 years. What'll change by then even if nothing becomes of the Meathammer?
How can I be racist, we are all one? I am not unfamiliar with it though, even here in Israel. How do you tolerate the intolerant, by being intolerant back? Racism is used in divide and conquer technique by power groups.
Heart_and_SoulThink about a turbo-charged car, needing high revs, and being the most at home on an autobahn (no top speed.)
What this makes me think is that you know little about turbocharged cars.
Heart_and_SoulOne of the things I like about this ski is that you can (or should be able to) place even pressure along the front and back of the inside edges of both skis. That's unique, right? Excellent for control and feel.
Nope, not unique in the slightest. Any good skier should be pressuring the inside edge of both skis equally most of the time. It's fundamental to a good parallel carved turn.
Heart_and_SoulThe main problem there was the backseat position needed to always be on the sweet spot of the edge (and all skis really.) That's why forward waist skis I think are better (for what I want to do.)
Just no.
To be absolutely clear, I have no issue with what you are doing in terms of coming up with a new ski. Experiment all you like. But don't preach about this stuff like you are an authority on it because all you actually achieve is repeatedly displaying your lack of knowledge.
There's a good chance I've skied more skis this season than you have in your life, come back and lecture us on the future of skis when you've actually experienced a few of them.
rozboonThere's a good chance I've skied more skis this season than you have in your life, come back and lecture us on the future of skis when you've actually experienced a few of them.
Post a vid of someone with super good technique and I'm certain they'll be be getting fatigued by it especially if they do it all day, so they won't be chilled out at the bottom of the run (physically and mentally,) and it would've taken them a long time to get that skill. It'll also look bad aesthetically. Ideally someone not on a race course.
The Meathammer 2015 is a ski that I think would be ideal for the HC Custom Piste - but not wholly necessary. I just think it'd produce the best results.
