FDA vs. Beer manufacturers and farmers.

Blake.Pim going to be seriously pissed if i can no longer afford decent micro's and have to go back to drinking genessee/pbr

Come to Canada hahahahaha

6er of Deschutes for $8 ?!?! yes please

will_powderCome to Canada hahahahaha

6er of Deschutes for $8 ?!?! yes please

I'm not from canada but all I've ever heard about canadian beer prices are they are quite high. maybe youre in a different area though.

Even if these proposed changes did happen (they wont, too much money in the brewing industry at the moment) all that would happen is that the brewers would just throw away the grain or have it hauled off for compost. the change would really only hurt the cattle farmers. they would be a smaller financial burden on the brewers who would then need to facilitate waste removal of the grain.

ScaredwhiteboyYes, I also have the common sense to know that a beer doesn't taste better just because it costs more or was made by a small brewer.

People do the same thing with all cheap foods. They claim not to like it solely to appear more sophisticated and high-class. McDonald's and Hershey's chocolate get trashed by the majority of America, yet somehow they still manage to hold the largest market share in their industries. How can this be? Because the majority of the people who claim not to like their products do so for appearances only.

because its cheap and accessible. i mostly drink more local beers or micros because they just taste better. however, if i am having people over or drinking for nothing more than to get hammered, i keep a case of pbr in my fridge so each drink doesnt cost me a minimum of $1. just like i dont normally go to mcdonalds but if im broke and need food in certain situations, i will go to mcdonalds. there is nothing wrong like mcdonalds, like there is nothing wrong with cheap beer, but in a lot of situations i wont chose mcdonalds, like i wont chose shitty beer

TingaI'm not from canada but all I've ever heard about canadian beer prices are they are quite high. maybe youre in a different area though.

Even if these proposed changes did happen (they wont, too much money in the brewing industry at the moment) all that would happen is that the brewers would just throw away the grain or have it hauled off for compost. the change would really only hurt the cattle farmers. they would be a smaller financial burden on the brewers who would then need to facilitate waste removal of the grain.

No I was saying I can get deschutes for $8 in washington. That'll cost me about $16 or more in BC.

will_powderCome to Canada hahahahaha

6er of Deschutes for $8 ?!?! yes please

uhh thats what i pay right now. plus canada beer is fuckin expensive

A 12 pack of 12 ounce pbr cans was like 21.50 after tax in canada. WHAT THE FUCK?

Also people were drinking my beer so I had to go back to the blt store or whatever and buy more. You think the boxed 12 packs of beer aren't THAT outrageous, then notice that it's actually a boxed 6 pack.

A handle of bacardi was 65 bucks. Ended up getting some wine for 8-10.

Next time I brought a 30 rack so that I could get drunk as donate some to my friends house. Paid around 16.50 after tax in michigan. So 18 beers for 5 bucks less. Fucking nuts.

If I was an alcoholic in canada I'd probably just switch to meth or something.

theabortionatorA 12 pack of 12 ounce pbr cans was like 21.50 after tax in canada. WHAT THE FUCK?

Also people were drinking my beer so I had to go back to the blt store or whatever and buy more. You think the boxed 12 packs of beer aren't THAT outrageous, then notice that it's actually a boxed 6 pack.

A handle of bacardi was 65 bucks. Ended up getting some wine for 8-10.

Next time I brought a 30 rack so that I could get drunk as donate some to my friends house. Paid around 16.50 after tax in michigan. So 18 beers for 5 bucks less. Fucking nuts.

If I was an alcoholic in canada I'd probably just switch to meth or something.

Did you notice how much a six pack of Mooseheaders or Labatt's was? Out of curiosity. It would be pretty funny if you could buy a six pack of Canadian beer in the U.S. for less than you could buy it in Canada, but it sounds like that's the case. MERICA WOOT WOOT!!!

Conspiracy theory following: Canadian beer manufacturers have bribed FDA officials to make stricter rules regarding spent grain so that they can be more competitive with U.S. microbreweries.

Mr.HuckDid you notice how much a six pack of Mooseheaders or Labatt's was? Out of curiosity. It would be pretty funny if you could buy a six pack of Canadian beer in the U.S. for less than you could buy it in Canada, but it sounds like that's the case. MERICA WOOT WOOT!!!

Conspiracy theory following: Canadian beer manufacturers have bribed FDA officials to make stricter rules regarding spent grain so that they can be more competitive with U.S. microbreweries.

Oh you can. You can get a 30 pack of Labatt in the US for less than the price of a 12 pack in Canada. At least in some places. I'm going off of ontario prices, I don't know the whole countries beer prices.

Mr.HuckDid you notice how much a six pack of Mooseheaders or Labatt's was? Out of curiosity. It would be pretty funny if you could buy a six pack of Canadian beer in the U.S. for less than you could buy it in Canada, but it sounds like that's the case. MERICA WOOT WOOT!!!

Conspiracy theory following: Canadian beer manufacturers have bribed FDA officials to make stricter rules regarding spent grain so that they can be more competitive with U.S. microbreweries.

A 24 case of keiths tallboys in Canada would be like 55 dollars or so. In the duty free you can pick up up for 20 and change at the duty free.

But that's taxes. It's the same as anything. We pay more for things like beer and gas, but get it back in other ways. Ei healthcare and road work.

That being said, we are fucking gouged on all booze. Would be nice if it was cheaper.

theabortionatorOh you can. You can get a 30 pack of Labatt in the US for less than the price of a 12 pack in Canada. At least in some places. I'm going off of ontario prices, I don't know the whole countries beer prices.

timmiA 24 case of keiths tallboys in Canada would be like 55 dollars or so. In the duty free you can pick up up for 20 and change at the duty free.

But that's taxes. It's the same as anything. We pay more for things like beer and gas, but get it back in other ways. Ei healthcare and road work.

timmiThat being said, we are fucking gouged on all booze. Would be nice if it was cheaper.

That's pretty amazing. ... and really sad.

At those prices Bob and Doug would have gone broke after one episode.

As a huge craft beer nerd and also self identified liberal, this is a terrible rule and I hate it as well. It is incredibly wasteful.

I wonder who lobbied for this and who it benefits? Big farm who doesnt receive the spent grain? Or macrobrewers who can afford to package said grain?

timmiI want to be fully clear on this. I am absolutely all for the craft beer market! I love craft beers and love trying different ones from all over the city. The whole proactive comment you were talking about is kinda what I do for a living, heh.
The keiths hop series is essentially defined as a bridge between the typical adjust lager and the craft beer market.

You were saying marketing is bullshit. I take no offence to that! I oddly enough love that marketing can be so influential yet for the most part intangible. It's what draws me to it.

As for my specific field of marketing- I do in store promotions. So I manage a team of people who set up booths in beer stores and get people excited for the beer. When I'm in field I can talk to someone face to face, give them a sample, explain the beer and the process used and find out what they do and don't like. And if the person says they are looking for something else and I know theres nothing in my portfolio to match I have absolutely no problem pointing them to a craft beer that I think they'll really like.

I will say that your concept of marketing is a bit simplistic, although I can tell that was purposeful. It comes down more so to identifying with a brand. Stella Artois cannot be served in anything but their flagship chalice, it's a decent pilsner but people don't buy it for that reason. They buy it for the glass that they can hold in their hand at the bar and let everyone know they didn't get the cheap stuff. That's an easy to explain example, but it's fairly true for all beers. Look at different demographics and they all drink pretty much the exact beer you would expect them to, with very little variation. Yes the merchandising side (shelf facing) does have a lot to do with it, but many beer stores in my area only have a menu on the wall to choose from and very little product on the stores floor, and still see the same results.

The brewing process is something I've got a working knowledge of, but been trying to find out more about. I've done a few tours and I've done some microbrews but there is so much to know. It also doesn't help that my other client is Diageo, so I need to have a working knowledge of pretty much all spirits as well.
Keiths hop series uses a dry hoping process. It's made to be an accessible beer to those who aren't accustomed to the more flavourful beers, but still pack a decent punch. Only roughly 20 IBU's, though. They're single hop ales and each has a very distinct taste.

As for your article I haven't had a chance to look over it yet, but that sounds like the same story that created Bud Crown. To my knowledge the brewmasters were just given free reigns and said make a beer. They ended up liking it and putting it into production.

One last thing, up here in canada a 6 pack costs 10-12 bucks minimum so we're paying out the ass no matter what. And I've read a fair bit on beer advocate, but the people on there come off as the most pretentious bastards ever. I read it almost as a satire in my own head a lot of the time.

Excuse my delay, it's been a busy week and now I'm typing this up over a pint.

Hey you gotta do what you gotta do, right? I don't blame ya there. Working for a beer company could be pretty sweet, alas it's not my calling.

I think you're right that I over simplify marketing and I think that's because it's a bit of an emotional response. Which is I guess what you're trying to invoke. If you say it's about forming a brand identity then in some ways it becomes an us vs them thing. If you're not for being represented by that brand, then you're against it. Kind of a double edged sword, no?

Much like Coke vs Pepsi or Canon vs Nikon, a lot of people pick one and hate the other. See, for the record I prefer Coke but will drink pepsi and I shoot Canon but respect Nikon. The issue I take with these macro lager companies is the marketing isn't backed up by the product-- At least not by my own terms of what I look for in a beer. It is backed up though as being a smooth and consistent beer, like we discussed.

The stores with little product are an interesting mention. No doubt the magazines, TV commercials, etc really play into those sales. I mentioned shelf space as just one example of how the marketing works. Also because I can't actually think of a store I've been to without most all of the beer on display, so I'm not too familiar with that being the case.

Microbrew tours are great for learning, especially if you can speak with one of the brewers. I imagine even a bud factory tour would be entertaining in that respect. I've learned enough to know there's a whole lot more to brewing than I understand, that's for sure. And definitely don't ask me about spirits, I know very little about that. Quite a knowledge base you would have to build up here, which for better or worse could involve a lot of drinking.

Definitely take a look at that article. It makes an interesting point about the yeast that at least Budweiser uses. I'm not sure how it works for other similar breweries.

I forget the exact costs but in college a tall boy sixer of pbr was a good and cheap beer to grab. Definitely under ten bucks! I'd say craft beer is anywhere from eight bucks (definitely cheaper side) to 12+ for six 12 oz beers.

I completely agree beer advocate is pretentious as fuck lol. I'm a longtime lurker though and I think it's helpful to see what people think about a beer, good or bad, and what they think about the flavors. Of course I'm also free to think they're often full of shit when they claim they tasted such and such in the beer, but that's another story. But they would be the group to separate beer that's average from beer that is actually very good. As we were saying before not all craft is created equal, and they'll let you know. (Just don't include beers that gain extreme hype within a community, those scores will always be inflated.) Anyway in that sense I think it's a worthy resource, as long as you can make it through the BS.

Also just because I dislike marketing doesn't mean I disrespect it.

Maybe we'll run into each other for a beer one day and we can argue over what to drink, first rounds on me.

MicrocosmExcuse my delay, it's been a busy week and now I'm typing this up over a pint.

Hey you gotta do what you gotta do, right? I don't blame ya there. Working for a beer company could be pretty sweet, alas it's not my calling.

I think you're right that I over simplify marketing and I think that's because it's a bit of an emotional response. Which is I guess what you're trying to invoke. If you say it's about forming a brand identity then in some ways it becomes an us vs them thing. If you're not for being represented by that brand, then you're against it. Kind of a double edged sword, no?

Much like Coke vs Pepsi or Canon vs Nikon, a lot of people pick one and hate the other. See, for the record I prefer Coke but will drink pepsi and I shoot Canon but respect Nikon. The issue I take with these macro lager companies is the marketing isn't backed up by the product-- At least not by my own terms of what I look for in a beer. It is backed up though as being a smooth and consistent beer, like we discussed.

The stores with little product are an interesting mention. No doubt the magazines, TV commercials, etc really play into those sales. I mentioned shelf space as just one example of how the marketing works. Also because I can't actually think of a store I've been to without most all of the beer on display, so I'm not too familiar with that being the case.

Microbrew tours are great for learning, especially if you can speak with one of the brewers. I imagine even a bud factory tour would be entertaining in that respect. I've learned enough to know there's a whole lot more to brewing than I understand, that's for sure. And definitely don't ask me about spirits, I know very little about that. Quite a knowledge base you would have to build up here, which for better or worse could involve a lot of drinking.

Definitely take a look at that article. It makes an interesting point about the yeast that at least Budweiser uses. I'm not sure how it works for other similar breweries.

I forget the exact costs but in college a tall boy sixer of pbr was a good and cheap beer to grab. Definitely under ten bucks! I'd say craft beer is anywhere from eight bucks (definitely cheaper side) to 12+ for six 12 oz beers.

I completely agree beer advocate is pretentious as fuck lol. I'm a longtime lurker though and I think it's helpful to see what people think about a beer, good or bad, and what they think about the flavors. Of course I'm also free to think they're often full of shit when they claim they tasted such and such in the beer, but that's another story. But they would be the group to separate beer that's average from beer that is actually very good. As we were saying before not all craft is created equal, and they'll let you know. (Just don't include beers that gain extreme hype within a community, those scores will always be inflated.) Anyway in that sense I think it's a worthy resource, as long as you can make it through the BS.

Also just because I dislike marketing doesn't mean I disrespect it.

Maybe we'll run into each other for a beer one day and we can argue over what to drink, first rounds on me.

Well you can say it's an Us vs. Them thing, but in reality, a ton of companies have a portfolio that pleases someone in every major market. Labatt has Bud and bud light for the traditional beer drinker, and a range of beers under different brands to ensure there isn't a sizeable market that's untapped. With the craft beer boom it's not surprise that they've brewed and acquired brands that suit that market. So I wouldn't say it's a double edged sword, because if you're not a fan of bud, then chances are you'll like something else. Keep in mind no beer is advertised as being a Labatt product. You need to read the small print on the back to find out what you're drinking is owned by a multi billion dollar company (with the exception of a few brands that are branded labatt).

I'm not sure the coke vs pepsi thing is an apt comparison, because there are essentially 2 big players in that market. Where as beer, there are hundreds of different beers to choose from, all under different brands. You do get people liking one beer and hating others, but in the case of these beer conglomerates that is completely by design. They want to pin beers against each other. That builds the brand identity because suddenly it becomes a more emotional response. Yet they don't realize both beers are quite possibly in the same portfolio. I'm talking quality aside here though, purely marketing based. But I'm reminded of a study a while back that concluded that the average consumer could not tell the difference between their favourite brand and the competitors in a blind taste test. This is for the average consumer though.

You did say the quality doesn't back up the brand for you though. Completely fair point and a point of view that you are free to have. Like I said, if you came in to one of my promotions with that point of view I'd show you to a few beers that I really enjoy outside of our portfolio.

Canadian beer stores are a unique thing because they are completely monopolized by the government. So I guess not having access to a lot of product on the store was at one point a decision to limit accessibility? Or potentially some pressure from the big companies to limit impulse decisions outside of the companies that pump millions into marketing (heh, may be making a point in your favour on that one). And to be clear, when I say it's 12 bucks for a 6 pack that's bottles. The cheapest legal price for a beer in ontario is like 1.15/bottle.

aha I don't take any disrespect to any of this and I hope I don't come off like I'm giving it. I love a good debate that doesn't turn petty and this has been fun. I'm not trying to persuade you to become a labatt guy, just raising some points.

DarthVaderJust going to step in here to point out that the FDA is moving to do this because what we use to grow our food is sorta important. You do remember that the whole BSE/ mad cow thing was caused by grinding up sick animals and feeding them back to our livestock, I wouldn't be so quick to say 'ah, fuck em.'

That being said, FDA y u no tax sugar but tax beer?

totally agree, but i really want to point out, madd cow is from a prion, which typically requires being spread directly from like-to-like species (mostly cannibalism actually)... so grain cannot be the culprit

The big reason I can understand the FDA ruling is that if wet grains sit for an extended period of time they become extremely venerable to being the host of bacteria. This is a huge concern, at least in the eyes of policy makes, when it comes to farming. Im sure that there is an economical way to dry grains that comes out of this.

Thanks Obama derp

theabortionatorHow can you hate on heady topper? Maybe you gotta slow down and enjoy em. If you're playing pong or shotgunning beers probably not the way to go but I've never heard of anyone single out heady topper in a hate list before.

Maybe the heady topper got murdered on the long trip from northern VT to Philly. I still have my hopes for you not being a communist.

I didn't hate on heady topper at all. I said I've been fed fantastic beer after fantastic beer -- from heady topper and the like. I never said I didn't like it. I just said for whatever reason I enjoy the taste of Coors more than those beers. I singled it out because it's universally considered one of the greatest beers out there. I pretty much always relax when I'm drinking a beer. I can't remember the last time I shotgunned or played beer pong. And haven't ever done either of those with a beer of a higher quality than keystone.

timmiWell you can say it's an Us vs. Them thing, but in reality, a ton of companies have a portfolio that pleases someone in every major market. Labatt has Bud and bud light for the traditional beer drinker, and a range of beers under different brands to ensure there isn't a sizeable market that's untapped. With the craft beer boom it's not surprise that they've brewed and acquired brands that suit that market. So I wouldn't say it's a double edged sword, because if you're not a fan of bud, then chances are you'll like something else. Keep in mind no beer is advertised as being a Labatt product. You need to read the small print on the back to find out what you're drinking is owned by a multi billion dollar company (with the exception of a few brands that are branded labatt).

I'm not sure the coke vs pepsi thing is an apt comparison, because there are essentially 2 big players in that market. Where as beer, there are hundreds of different beers to choose from, all under different brands. You do get people liking one beer and hating others, but in the case of these beer conglomerates that is completely by design. They want to pin beers against each other. That builds the brand identity because suddenly it becomes a more emotional response. Yet they don't realize both beers are quite possibly in the same portfolio. I'm talking quality aside here though, purely marketing based. But I'm reminded of a study a while back that concluded that the average consumer could not tell the difference between their favourite brand and the competitors in a blind taste test. This is for the average consumer though.

You did say the quality doesn't back up the brand for you though. Completely fair point and a point of view that you are free to have. Like I said, if you came in to one of my promotions with that point of view I'd show you to a few beers that I really enjoy outside of our portfolio.

Canadian beer stores are a unique thing because they are completely monopolized by the government. So I guess not having access to a lot of product on the store was at one point a decision to limit accessibility? Or potentially some pressure from the big companies to limit impulse decisions outside of the companies that pump millions into marketing (heh, may be making a point in your favour on that one). And to be clear, when I say it's 12 bucks for a 6 pack that's bottles. The cheapest legal price for a beer in ontario is like 1.15/bottle.

aha I don't take any disrespect to any of this and I hope I don't come off like I'm giving it. I love a good debate that doesn't turn petty and this has been fun. I'm not trying to persuade you to become a labatt guy, just raising some points.

Haha yes I didn't mean we would argue in a bad way at all, I love getting into debates. I'll get heated but it's really to get into the spirit of things and there are no hard feelings either way. It sucks when someone takes it too harshly or thinks things are getting out of hand when you're just having a bit of back and forth. Gotta stand your ground right!