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Interesting view on how political groups polarize Pro Life - Pro Choice

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theAbusementPark
Posts: 77 - Karma: 25
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/opinion/sunday/friedman-why-i-am-pro-life.html

thoughts?
Oct 29 2012 2:48PM
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Anti_Panda
Posts: 234 - Karma: 95
anti panda aint feared a you
Oct 31 2012 1:31PM
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Campeador
Posts: 7516 - Karma: -1,227
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Oct 31 2012 1:31PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
you obviously have no idea how teen pregnancy/ unwanted child adoption works.
Oct 31 2012 1:36PM
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Campeador
Posts: 7516 - Karma: -1,227
"Everywhere we see poverty and large families going hand in hand. Those least fit to carry on the race are increasing most rapidly. People who cannot support their own offspring are encouraged by Church and State to produce large families. Many of the children thus begotten are diseased or feeble-minded; many become criminals. The burden of supporting these unwanted types has to be borne by the healthy elements of the nation. Funds that should be used to raise the standard of our civilization are diverted to the maintenance of those who should never have been born."

- Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

This is probably the best pro-choice argument that exists.
Oct 31 2012 1:41PM
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wasatch_rat
Posts: 1771 - Karma: 2,937
well if she didn't know she was pregnant and did something to harm the baby, that would still be negligent manslaughter, if the fetus has the same value as living humans. if i accidentally or unknowingly drop something off of a skyscraper and it kills someone below, i've committed a crime yes? doesn't matter if i meant to or was even aware of it, my negligence has cost the life of another. so why the exception for a unborn fetus?

because a few week old blob of developing cells doesn't have the sentient value of a human being, its part of the mothers body and naturally vulnerable to her decisions. is there value in it's imminent potential for life? probably, but the government doesn't protect imminent potential for sentient humanity, it protects humans here and now (ideally).

the tricky gray zone for us pro choicers though, is the completely arbitrary nature of when the baby is shouldn't be aborted, like after the first trimester. what biological signifiers imply consciousness and human value? it is difficult question, because i don't think anyone could be in favor of the option of an 8 month in abortion.
Oct 31 2012 1:44PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
oh? enlighten me, wise one.
Oct 31 2012 1:44PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
well i cant really blame someone for killing a baby if she didnt know she was pregnant, and once conception starts it has the same value as a human.

and to k-rob, unwanted pregnancy adoption is the parents who adopted take the baby from the hospital, and they check if they are a stable family, none of that foster home bullshit.
Oct 31 2012 1:50PM
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klayer_9
Posts: 2037 - Karma: 188
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Oct 31 2012 1:51PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
dude she was a terrible racist, whether or not she said that, i am not sure, but yah she was incredibly racist.
Oct 31 2012 1:52PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
that still doesn't account for not being wanted by your parents.
Oct 31 2012 1:55PM
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klayer_9
Posts: 2037 - Karma: 188
You act like you have some sort of personal experience on the matter of pregnancy/abortion. Do you?
Oct 31 2012 1:56PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
im not going to get into that, but yes.
Oct 31 2012 1:58PM
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Campeador
Posts: 7516 - Karma: -1,227
Just the facts you clown.
Oct 31 2012 2:01PM
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klayer_9
Posts: 2037 - Karma: 188
nurse born in 1879 said something racist so abortion must be evil. now i see the light! you R so SmArT!
Oct 31 2012 2:51PM
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wasatch_rat
Posts: 1771 - Karma: 2,937
so accidentally killing a fetus you aren't aware of is ok, but accidentally killing a born person is a crime, and both the fetus and the born human have the same value? why the distinction?

Oct 31 2012 4:44PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141

Seriously... how does anyone think that is a legitimate argument? I'm pretty sure you could find a few prominent members of the Nazi party who were pro-life, that isn't a basis on which to dismiss the views of people who are pro-life.

Stupidity, it knows no ideological allegiance...

Oct 31 2012 5:08PM
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Bread_Fish
Posts: 760 - Karma: 71
I dont know. I am all for killing babies but I dont think women should have any rights
Oct 31 2012 5:44PM
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brosephstalin
Posts: 429 - Karma: 8
free abortions for everyone
Oct 31 2012 8:46PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
no i believe thats called manslaughter, and yes i think it should go punished, say if a woman was unaware that she was pregnant and had some beers the next night, can i blame her for that, I THINK NOT.
Oct 31 2012 8:54PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
your mom did that didn't she
Oct 31 2012 9:21PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
wow you sir are grasping for straws here, if i were you i would just leave silently and put that nice little sword up your icon firmly up your ass.
Oct 31 2012 9:22PM
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ironic
Posts: 735 - Karma: 104
Amen sister!


Oct 31 2012 9:30PM
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wasatch_rat
Posts: 1771 - Karma: 2,937
exactly, manslaughter is a punishable crime. but if a fetus has the exact same value as a person and is legally a human life, then how would a woman drinking during an unknown pregnancy not fall under that category? negligence (drinking when she is possibly pregnant) results in the end of a human life (first trimester fetus). how would that not be manslaughter by your definition of human life?

this is my problem with pro choice as a legal stance. morally believing that abortion is wrong is a very justifiable belief for a lot of people. however, if we are to pass a constitutional amendment saying that the legally protected sanctity of human life begins at conception, that could have broad and very draconian implications for women.
Oct 31 2012 10:02PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
a person really tell their pregnant for awhile, so how could a person be blamed for that?

and no it could not broad implications for women.
Oct 31 2012 10:09PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
look here is the thing, the intention of abortion is to get rid of the baby, (murder) and if you drink yourself silly when you were pregnant not knowing, you had not intention of killing the baby.
Oct 31 2012 10:12PM
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walrussteeze
Posts: 327 - Karma: 212
      Somewhat related at the end.
Oct 31 2012 10:22PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
no stupid, if you don't like murder, don't murder people.
Oct 31 2012 10:24PM
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ski.cats
Posts: 577 - Karma: 352
youre such a fucking idiot.

he implied that there are more people involved in an abortion than just the mother. the father, the entire family for that matter and the fetus all probably care on the matter

in the same way, a murder affects more than just the person murdering



im not chiming in on right or wrong, like i said before abortion is a beat to death issue thats already decided and is almost impossible to change. but seriously youre fucking stupid
Oct 31 2012 10:29PM
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joshua
Posts: 5046 - Karma: 1,280
So you don't think that I should be able to say to other people "murder is wrong, you shouldn't do that"?
Oct 31 2012 10:29PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
he implied that i said the fetus has a say in whether or not it gets aborted. you're implying the same. you're both nuts, i said no such thing.
Oct 31 2012 10:30PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
say what you want but you can't stop me mufucka. anyways we're talking about abortion not murder why do you guys keep bringing up murder everyone already knows that's illegal.
Oct 31 2012 10:33PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
because abortion is basically murder, if you view an embryo as a human with rights to human life.
Oct 31 2012 10:34PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
well if you view an embryo as a human then i have nothing to say to you you're beyond reason.
Oct 31 2012 10:35PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
really please explain why i am beyond reason.
Oct 31 2012 10:36PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
because embryos aren't people that's why we call them embryos and not Bobby Billy or Timmy
Oct 31 2012 10:37PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
why?
Oct 31 2012 10:37PM
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ski.cats
Posts: 577 - Karma: 352
"don't like abortion, don't get one" = if you think its wrong then dont get an abortion. but people should still be free to get an abortion if they find it morally acceptable

"dont like to murder, then dont murder" = if you think its wrong then dont murder someone. but people should still be free to murder if they find it morally acceptable

logic is still flawed.
stupid
Oct 31 2012 10:38PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
why what? that's not a question. are you okay?
Oct 31 2012 10:38PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
explain to me why embryos dont have a right to life.
Oct 31 2012 10:39PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
i never said people should be free to murder, again, you are the one making comparisons between separate issues not i.
Oct 31 2012 10:40PM
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joshua
Posts: 5046 - Karma: 1,280
B/c we are talking about morals here, and whether or not someone else has a right to tell someone else "thats wrong, you shouldn't do that."

Pretty much all arguments for abortion boil down to "I can do whatever I want, and you can't make me do any differently." (I realize there are plenty of extreme cases such as rape that are a lot more complex, but I'm just talking about the average high school girl who gets knocked up.)

Now, lets assume that abortion is morally wrong, as in, it is the ending of a human life.

When you say, "meh, its her body, she can do whatever she wants with the fetus," that is pretty flawed logic IMO. If abortion is in fact the taking of a life, (IMO it is), then this argument is pretty much the same as saying that we should be able to do whatever we want with our own bodies, no matter what. By that logic, we should stand by and just let murders do their own thing. Its an analogy.

Oct 31 2012 10:45PM
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ski.cats
Posts: 577 - Karma: 352
last time explaining why youre a dip shit because you'll probably pretend that youre trolling

if you cant apply the same logic objectively across some sort of spectrum = flawed. the shit you say makes less sense the chewbacca living on the forest moon of endor with a bunch of ewoks
Oct 31 2012 10:46PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
cause they're embryos mate they don't have rights. same as my skin cells don't have rights and i don't get arrested for exfoliating, same as your sperm don't have rights and you don't get incarcerated for jizzing. if you want to give embryos rights then become a woman and make an embryo and call it a person and don't abort it but there's still gonna be a whole planet full of women who disagree with you so good luck getting that one in the legislature it ain't gonna happen, for the same reason that murderers who legitimately believe murder is okay don't get a free pass when they kill someone.
Oct 31 2012 10:47PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
well seeing as how the majority of people say "nope it's okay you can do that" then good luck turning back time to when abortion was illegal and all those other good things that people thought back before i was even born. power to you man i hope your dreams of changing the minds of everyone who disagrees with you come true.
Oct 31 2012 10:51PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
my jizz doesnt turn into a human if it lands on the ground. a human does 2/3 of its growth in a womb.
by your logic your saying the embryos dont have rights, embryos are one of the weakest points in a humans life, along with being a vegetable. so should we also kill people that are in a coma if they have a chance to survive as well?
Oct 31 2012 10:51PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
newsflash, embryos don't turn into people if you drop them on the ground either.
Oct 31 2012 10:53PM
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joshua
Posts: 5046 - Karma: 1,280
Your skin isn't already on a path to become a person, neither is your sperm, and neither is a womans egg. A fetus IS a baby, its just not fully developed yet.

Again, WHY do you think this is an issue that only concerns women. Objective morals are not gender-based.

Did you just compare pro-lifers to people who believe murder is okay? Thats probably the worst analogy ever, and makes no sense at all. Are you saying that pro-lifers are on the same level as those who want to legalize murder? Are saying that pro-choicers are the ones who are upholding human life?


Oct 31 2012 10:54PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,396
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Oct 31 2012 10:56PM
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joshua
Posts: 5046 - Karma: 1,280
If you aren't going to read other people's posts, why bother trying to continue arguing? You are ignoring what everyone else in this thread is saying, and continuing to spout your arrogant, misinformed opinions.
Oct 31 2012 11:02PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
i'm saying the only people who are agree with you are other pro-life americans and the irish. you're the ones with the unpopular opinions here. the issue doesn't only concern women, that's why you're a minority on this issue, because most men agree with the women too. if it was only the women who were concerned about this i wouldn't be arguing with you guys, i'd be too busy taking care of all the children i never had aborted. the fact is that you can't create an embryo without a woman and most women agree on this.
Oct 31 2012 11:27PM
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