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Renewable Energy..food for thought

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mitchk
Posts: 678 - Karma: 19
So before i begin i wanna say Ive grown up in Ontario most of my life so I'm going to use some local facts.

Most Ontarians know that in Toronto there is a wind turbine that powers something like 1300 homes. We also know that with a population of (i think were at 35,000,000) 35,000,000 and approximately 2.2 people per houshold there must roughly be 15.9 million homes in Canada.

So with this many homes we would need 15,900,000/1300=1200ish windmills similar to the one in toronto to power our entire country. So at $6,000,000 a piece thats about $73.4 billion dollars.

Now in 1990 when the first reactor of the darlington nuclear plant was finally operational, they had already met their budget of $16.5 Billion to have all 4 reactors opperational, so you can imagine how much this whole thing has cost over the past 20 years...


So fellow NSers, why with all the extra space we have in Canada cant we seem to get with the program? Btw Germany who is obvs much smaller than us geographically now produces i've heard about 80% of their electricity with wind and solar power and their population is far far bigger than ours...

Any discussion? Im more than happy to hear why what ive said is a crock if it actually is!
Oct 4 2012 12:38AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Ignoring installation costs, power line costs, monthly upkeep, and the fact that wind power is DIURNAL. If the wind stops blowing then the entire country is fucked... But thats why we have backup oil, NG, and coal power right? Well how are those companies supposed to turn on and off right when the wind stops blowing? You don't start up a coal powerplant with the flick of a switch and have it running right away. There would be moments of power outages which would result in people outraging. The only current fix to this would be to have the backup power ready at all times which then means that you are still running those plants at full capacity anyways.

Another thing to consider. The majority of wind power comes in the morning and at night when the wind is blowing the most. Ironically the biggest demand for power comes around 4-6pm when people get home from work and do shit with their families and cook and all that fun stuff. This is when the wind power output tends to be at its lowest point.

So theres the problem right there. We can't take the energy produced in the morning and magically make it appear when we need it most. Or can we? What do we have that stores energy? Batteries! Well we have shitty attempts at batteries that work great at powering our electronic devices and starting our car. But do we really want to use 100000000000000000000000 car batteries just so we can store that wind energy? Thats a lot of lead required and therefore would cost WAYYY too much money let alone the fact that they have a lifespan of about 5 years if treated nicely. And their storage capacity on an industrial scale is laughable at best.

So where does the leave us? Well we need to create a battery that can hold massive amounts of power, has a long shelf life, doesn't use electromagnetic generators do to their inefficiency, and can deliver power in a fraction of a second. My friends the solution lies in batteries. And there are solutions coming. My dad is working on this very problem as we speak and its not gonna be long before we see some fucking cool shit come out in the battery world!
Oct 4 2012 12:53AM
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fupaface
Posts: 810 - Karma: 449
i think its a good idea, i mean with upkeep that creates jobs, and you have to do upkeep on every kind of power plant anyway. Plus every step of this is creating jobs while working towards a sustainable source of energy. I feel like people joust don't do this because big oil and coal companies lobby to keep things the way they are so they can make big money.
Oct 4 2012 12:58AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Read my post. Its not a good idea until we fix key issues with wind power...
Oct 4 2012 12:59AM
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fupaface
Posts: 810 - Karma: 449
Sure there are still holes in wind energy but look at germany they get the bulk of their power from wind and solar and you don't see any huge public outcries about power outages. I don't think making wind power work is out of reach, I just think that like I said oil and coal companies don't want this to happen.
Oct 4 2012 1:04AM
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mitchk
Posts: 678 - Karma: 19
some goo dpoints indeed, but it is true that all electricity sources have upkeep costs. And yea i did leave out installation costs.

If your dad helps whip up some awesome shit in the world of batteries thats dope because the issues you pointed out are totally true and I hadnt considered them. We still cant say that we couldnt be using waaaaaayyyyyyyy more renewable ressources though..

I dont know if youve ever been to Saskatchewan but along highway one whenever ive stopped to pee (ive actually done this a considerable amount of times) iits always super windy and I dont think ive ever had a solid stream of urine touch the ground there.
Oct 4 2012 1:05AM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,455
Yes, def put a billion wind turbines everywhere.
Oct 4 2012 1:07AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Are you fucking kidding me? If you can't think through that then you're not ready for the rest of my post anyways... So you're saying that the wind blows constantly all the time no downtime so there is a constant source of power coming from wind turbines? Dude how fucking thick is your skull? Think about it before you go bashing my post.
Oct 4 2012 1:25AM
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GEORGEzimmerman
Posts: 1473 - Karma: 439
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Oct 4 2012 1:28AM
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ski.cats
Posts: 577 - Karma: 352
first of all,nobody proposes relying on solely wind power. when talk of renewables is on the table, its a collection of sources such as solar, wind, better batteries, reduction, nuclear (terrapower is sick and i think is extremely promising), tidal, hydro and whoever knows what else. 

secondly, coal and current nuclear plants break down all the time. theres a back up system. kinda supports the original point..

anyone saying wind is not part of the solution because of uncontrollable wind patterns is talking out of their ass
Oct 4 2012 1:30AM
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Schoellkopf
Posts: 1300 - Karma: 122
Thank you for your first post. Very insightful, and I completely agree about our need to develop better batteries. +k
Oct 4 2012 1:31AM
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Uah
Posts: 1104 - Karma: 176
I wish Tesla was here, that dude knows what's up

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Oct 4 2012 1:53AM
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ski.cats
Posts: 577 - Karma: 352


its happening
Oct 4 2012 1:56AM
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Tinga
Posts: 11349 - Karma: 2,333
I still think that in america the biggest source of energy is stored in the gut of our people.
Oct 4 2012 2:05AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Little bit of info on the batteries my dad is working on.

Take a giant mass. say 15000 lbs or so and spin it at 18,000 RPM in a vacuum

That's a lot of power and its also levatated by magnets. So theres absolutely no friction at all.

Take that and combine it with an electroSTATIC generator and you have some 99.9% efficient batteries capable of storing 250kWH.


Oct 4 2012 2:12AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Tesla>>>>>>>>Edison

I love tesla and I'm glad we went with AC power instead of Edison's shitty DC garbage.
Oct 4 2012 2:14AM
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fupaface
Posts: 810 - Karma: 449
Man I love TED talks, that one was fuckin interesting
Oct 4 2012 2:14AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Wrong.

About 8% of the electricity in Germany comes from wind, and about 3% is solar.
Oct 4 2012 2:18AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Only in imaginationland.

Most of the electricity in Germany comes from coal.
Oct 4 2012 2:20AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
To add to this:

Most of the energy in the WORLD comes from fossil fuels.

Also to add:
These batteries my dad is working on would also be sold to power companies that run the coal and NG plants. Most of you probably don't know this but coal powerplants burn pretty much the same amount of coal during the night as during the day and the extra power is essentially wasted. So if these batteries could be used to store excess power duringthe night and implement it during the day, there would be no need for peak and super peak power generation which is very very costly.

The batteries could also be used to make solar a baseload power source as well because it currently faces the same problems as wind. Its diurnal!

Another thing to note:
Power companies HATE taking solar and wind power into the grid. Why? Not because they hate the Earth, but because of its diurnal nature, it tends to be hard to predict teh spikes in power that come from using wind and solar. These surges of power can blow up power lines so power companies leave extra "space" in the lines to prevent this. Imagine a water pipe filled 90% of the way with water. That empty 10% is being saved for when the surge of solar power comes in so that the pipe doesn't burst. So right now it can be argued that solar and wind power are actually hurting us to an extent because we only are using 80-90% of our capacity in our lines. But again, batteries would fix this problem.

Another problem: Cost
Solar and wind are so fucking expensive compared to coal and NG power. Almost 2 times as much per watt hour even. Solar panels are not very efficient right now either. The Photovoltaic cells are eventually going to have to be replaced by different kinds of panels. My dad is working with solar companies who are developing panels that can absorb the whole UV spectrum which means that they can still generate some power when clouds cover the sun.


Last word: Nuclear power is amazing! But its PR is shit so its fucking hard to build new plants when everyone and their dog is ranting about how they're gonna grow a 5th limb or a giant dick on their forehead...

Sorry for the long rant again but this shit interests me big time. Read it and you won't be disappointed!
Oct 4 2012 2:29AM
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burntahoegreen
Posts: 191 - Karma: 24
http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/wind-cheapest-power-source-world-report-says.html


i dont disagree, just food for thought, is cost the biggest issue when dealing with renewable energy? if you have the money cost is not an issue (meaning it takes more than one person, better yet, a whole group of people), you make solar panels out to be like they are millions of dollars to incoprporate in every day life, they're not. And is your dad a lobbyist for some company trying to make it in this new "environmentally safe" economy? We all know corporations main goal is to make as much money as possible... get to the truth, and if it is... well good for him, he's on the right track
Oct 4 2012 2:40AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
All very good points. This is a pretty good debate from TED. (I agree with the pro nuclear energy guy)


Oct 4 2012 2:48AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Yes cost is everything. Im not talking about a home solar project here. Im talking about a country (for now) that is spending way too much money on renewable energy when its just hurting us. Batteries fix the intermittance issue but not the cost issue of the panels or turbines. Thats up to the manufacturing and r and D companies to figure out. And no my dads not a lobbyist, hes a scientist that focuses mostly on composites. His friend phil is the nuclear physicist that restarted three mile island after it partially melted down. Another guy was the lead nuclear chemist at Los AlAmos Labs ( nuclear bomb). Definitely not lobbyists.
Oct 4 2012 2:57AM
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burntahoegreen
Posts: 191 - Karma: 24
how can you spend too much money studying renewable energy? should we spend more on studying natural resources that aren't renewable? or more on studying war? or natural disasters? or how to get out of debt? or how to spend more money than you have? pretty sure we're gunna run out of oil, coal, food, water within the next 100 years. Doesn't take China to figure that one out, thank god for population control, oh wait... nevermind
Oct 4 2012 3:05AM
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Phil-X-
Posts: 7205 - Karma: 14,399
NUCLEAR / FUSION.

Once we can harness fusion we are set.
Oct 4 2012 3:07AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
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Oct 4 2012 3:09AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Research is good but we need to also focus on the mich obtainable means of making what we got even better. Theres loads of room for inprovement in the oil and coal sector and that is the best course of action to pursue in the short future so we can make what we have last even longer. Again back to batteries, they can make our current power plants more efficient AND they can completely get rid of the diurnal nature of solar and wind power which up until now along with their higher cost, was their biggest drawback. Its all about fixing things in the right order in a way to save the most money and to make the most efficoent use of our money and our time.
Oct 4 2012 3:12AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Nuclear fusion! Its my dream to be on the team that develops the first working nuclear reactor that sustains the reaction continuously and creates more power than it takes to sustain the magnetic field in which the reaction is taking place
Oct 4 2012 3:17AM
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burntahoegreen
Posts: 191 - Karma: 24
and when a tsunami knocks down your reactor, i hope you have some plans for that (you think japan was planning for it??)... i'm an environmental engineer and agree with many of your opinions, but you need to realize if we as a people demanded less (energy and resources) we wouldn't rely on this more 'efficient' and 'affordable' (false belief) energy. education starts from the bottom, not the top. The top just know how to better themselves at our loss.
Oct 4 2012 3:24AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Assuming your talking about my FUSION reactor? First off, we dont have tsunamis in the uS and secondly theres not gonna be the problems associated with traditional FISSION reactors because theres no uranium involved. Not sure if thats what you were getting at but im assuming you either mixed up fission and fusion and/or dont know what they are... And unlike a nuclear fission reaction which is hard to stop (and not favorable to stop) a fusion reaction can be stopped instantly. Theres also no harmful products in fusion reactions. Depending on the dofferent types of reactors, the reactants arent too dangerous either. Deuterium, different isotopes of lithium, 2h and 3h etc... Not nearly as nasty or radioactive like U-234.
Oct 4 2012 3:32AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
In fact we don't really know how to keep it going yet without a net energy loss.
Oct 4 2012 3:39AM
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burntahoegreen
Posts: 191 - Karma: 24
lol preach man! i hope your talk ain't bs. Luckily, I don't know enough about the topic to disagree or agree, and i don't like talking about stuff i have no knowledge of, so do work. I hope you're right, but i'm skeptical this is the most effective and efficient method. cheers to you for doin your homework, no hate whatsoever.
Oct 4 2012 3:45AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
I really do think that it can and will be a viablee source of power in the near future. The tokamak reactor is a providing with so mich information about the process of fusion. But like Bill Nye said, we cant even get enough emergy out of our current reactors to make up for the energy needed to run them. This is mostly caused by the fact that we cant een keep a fusion reaction going for more than a fraction of a second. But as new research is done and we keep learning, we will eventually be able to create an efficient fusion reactor in the not too distant future.
Oct 4 2012 10:32AM
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tinkytwinky
Posts: 2432 - Karma: 1,446
Yeah but the amount of uranium ore in the world is finite and Nuclear power, while more efficient than other energy sources, is still not a clean, or renewable energy source.
Oct 4 2012 10:49AM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Yep which is why fusion really is the next step in nuclear energy. Hydrogen is everywhere and we have no problem making hydrogen if we need too. Cant say the same thin about uranium. Also, hydrogen requires no enrochment processes to make it more reactive. But for now at the current time, i dont see why we arent using more nuclear power. Its certainly a viable source of wnergy but like i said earlier, it just has a bad rap because it involves radioactive elements. Sry for any spelling errors im on mobile.
Oct 4 2012 1:52PM
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mitchk
Posts: 678 - Karma: 19
Youre right that its not %80 that was just what i heard and foolishly didnt research before i created the thread.. HOWEVER:


In the 14 months since then, however, the situation has changed dramatically. In the first half of 2012, the country generated fully 25 percent of its electricity needs via wind, solar and other alternative power sources. Doubts as to whether the 35 percent target is attainable have virtually vanished.

Thats from another site.. so it seems I was wrong and your fact is a little outdated. Not by much though ill give you that as well..

Sounds like gangnam's dad is working on some pretty burly magnets though. If they are clean to assemble, use and dismantle thats pretty rad cause these would certainly make clean energy far more viable.
Oct 4 2012 9:29PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
If you actually read that whole article you'll realize that the change in that time period isn't as drastic as it looks. The 25% of it's electricity that is from renewable sources includes wind, solar, geothermal, biomass, and hydroelectric.

Wind still only generates about 7-8% of the electricity. (it says 7% right in that article you posted)
Oct 4 2012 9:34PM
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Mister.F
Posts: 1206 - Karma: 169
Oct 4 2012 9:49PM
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corona
Posts: 12752 - Karma: 32,266
do you know what diurnal means?
Oct 4 2012 9:54PM
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Mister.F
Posts: 1206 - Karma: 169
note vid above^^^^^^^
I'm currently working on algal biofuel at university. From my few years working with it and studying it, it seems to be one the the best sources of biofuel out there. If this was combined with the other renewables (solar, wind, tidal, nuclear, etc.) we'd be in a good place. Hopefully the future is bright! Because we all know if we keep going with fossil fuel, the thing we all love will be gone!!....(skiing)
Oct 4 2012 9:56PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Any cycle that occurs daily.

For example, it's light during the day and dark at night. It's also usually windier during the day than it is at night.
Oct 4 2012 10:01PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
Algae's pretty cool imo


Oct 4 2012 10:03PM
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corona
Posts: 12752 - Karma: 32,266
In my opinion solar is the way of the future. Currently our solar capture is quite inefficient, give it some investment and a few years and solar could be a very viable alternative to oil and coal power. Otherwise, I'm all for nuclear. as long as we don't rush it.
Oct 4 2012 10:03PM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Yes i do. Its a repeating cycle that repeats itself over a given time frame. Wind tends to blow the most in the morning and at dusk and sunlight tends to shine during well, the day... So therefore powersources relying on these 2 things are diurnal power sources right?

And in reply the the algae vid:

I like the fact of using algae for ethanol production over corn cause like he said corn isn't really efficient at ethanol production.

When he was talking about energy produced I assume thats coming from the burning of the products created by the algae? Which does indeed provide energy but at the same time, were still adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere.

That being said, this surely looks cheaper than oil drilling in the middle east and if it is, this could be used as a way to bring gas production to the US and make gas prices drop. But we need to make longer chains of CH than just C2H4OH (ethanol). Ethanol by itself has been proven to be much harsher on engines than our standard gasoline mix. If there are algae that could produce say 8 carbon chains to make Octane, then were in business here and this could be the next step in lowering gas prices in the US.

Another thing to look up if you're interested is extracting oil from oil rich shale. Its pretty cool stuff and it would also help us loosen our reliance on the middle east for oil.
Oct 4 2012 10:05PM
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corona
Posts: 12752 - Karma: 32,266
Well YOU know what it means. The other dude didn't. Wind does not magically stop at night. It might be on average windier during the day, but not by much. Wind is still perfectly viable at night.
Oct 4 2012 10:06PM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
True but wouldn't it put out the exact amount of CO2 that the algae takes in when it's being produced?
Oct 4 2012 10:07PM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Me too! I'm all for solar as long as we find a way to make it a base load power source (which it is currently unable to do) AND find a way to bring costs down to coal and oil power levels.

Which is what 90% of my posts in this thread have been about anyways...
Oct 4 2012 10:07PM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
I understand perfectly what it means. I didn't say that the wind magically stops at night. I said that the wind power curve PEAKS during the morning and at night and at CERTAIN times MAY stop completely, thus resulting in a loss of power.

Cmon now it wasn't that hard to get that from what I said.
Oct 4 2012 10:09PM
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ski.cats
Posts: 577 - Karma: 352
http://www.terrapower.com/home.aspx

traveling wave reactor. shit is next level. basically boasts to used depleted uranium from the enrichment process as fuel... using nuclear waste as fuel. fuck yeah
Oct 4 2012 10:17PM
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Mister.F
Posts: 1206 - Karma: 169
The lipids and sugars extracted from algae can be made into almost any sort of combustible fuel i.e. biodiesel, (from lipids) jet fuel, ethanol (from the sugars)....and since the algae consume co2 during photosynthesis, the net carbon output is zero or less.

Oct 4 2012 10:26PM
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Darth.Maul
Posts: 2472 - Karma: 652
Im still wondering about the Octane thing. He didn't mention it directly but if they can make long chains like that then this is some awesome technology!

Next thing it comes down to is price. What is the cost of doing this method over drilling/importing Middle Eastern oil?
Oct 4 2012 10:35PM
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