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Gov. Jerry Brown Bans Open Carry of Long Guns in California

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LoathesRaisins
Posts: 3612 - Karma: 4,735
Right to Bare Arms? Nope!!! No more!!! Further progression in Nazifornia
Sep 29 2012 9:10PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
^^ see that gunhuggers?

obviously i havent checked back on these sources, but that looks like a fucking graph to me.



the horseshit graphs the pro-gun faction (cough leerockwell.com cough) compares different times, different countries and other horseshit data in order to create the picture of guns being safe and shit.

like one time they talk about the jamaican homicide rate, and you cannot find this information ANYWHERE else on the interwebz. the other time they compare the soviet and us homicide rates after a soviet gun ban. wat?

Oct 3 2012 10:39AM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,881
Are you fucking retarded? That graph doesn't prove shit. Notice the years in which these "murder rates" rise. You honestly think it is solely based on gun sales?

I feel bad for you. Let me get back to cleaning my Rugers
Oct 3 2012 10:50AM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,881
That graph certainly includes murders committed with illegal weapons, as well as non-firearms.
Oct 3 2012 10:59AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
Oh, I see. Because when I look at the 10,000 or so gun related homicides in the U.S. every year, and compare it to the less than 50 in the U.K., about 10 in Japan, 150 in Germany, less than 100 in Canada, 30 or so in Australia, and so on and so forth... is this because Americans are more homicidal by nature, then?

Or do you think it might have something to do with those places having gun control laws?
Oct 3 2012 11:28AM
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Amadeus.
Posts: 3050 - Karma: 382
This what you said "Gun laws, no matter how many you put into place, will not help your crime rate or murder rate."

Does the graph not show a correlation between hand gun sales and homicides (crime)? There is a very clear pattern. You can take your loose gun laws and accept the increased crime rates if you want to, but you can not claim that gun laws do not prevent gun related homicides or homicides in general. This is the evidence.
Oct 3 2012 11:33AM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 269
yes in fact it is because americans are homicidal by nature.
Oct 3 2012 11:37AM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,881
Did you never once think about other influencing factors that lead people to commit crimes?

Those countries you named have all kinds of laws that are different from ours. Laws pertaining to guns, drugs, this and that. It's not a single law or set of laws concerning one matter (guns) that decides a countries murder rate, it's the combination of several. So no, I don't think we are more homicidal by nature, but it is pretty obvious that here in the States we have access to substances, firearms, various weapons that other countries citizens would never be able to obtain.

When you have that vast array of illegal shit at your disposal, it opens up a lot of possibilities, assuming you don't get caught. So I would guess that Americans are more apt to try and get away with illegal shit, murder or otherwise because they have the available resources to make it easy, or so they think.

Also, gun laws will never protect against accidental deaths, which, fyi, go on record as "Homicide".
Oct 3 2012 11:52AM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,881
You're very uneducated.

Gun laws will not affect the weapons that are snuck into this country and used to carry out syndicate-style crime/murders, which is what makes up most of the murders on that half-assed chart you've got there.


Btw, that "correlation" you speak of, is much more coincidence than correlation, if it's even accurate in the least. It doesn't even address the past decade haha
Oct 3 2012 12:02PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
stolen guns ≠ smuggled guns
Oct 3 2012 12:05PM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,881
Never said they were the same.

But I will say that both go unaffected with gun laws. Thus, murder rates are free to continue rising
Oct 3 2012 12:07PM
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cottage_steeze
Posts: 564 - Karma: 58
yes, the graph shows that there is a possible correlation between handgun sales and murder. but also, this thread is about the carry of long guns, not handguns. long guns are not used for murder nearly as often, and have a much more recreational purpose than handguns. And your graph also does do anything to show that its not the fact that maybe something happens the years the graph spikes to cause more murders. Maybe the economy is bad so people are pissed off, then they buy more guns, but they dont commit murder because they have a gun, they commit the murder because they are pissed off about something else. a single graph cannot summarize whether guns and murder correlate directly, especially when the graph shows handgun sales and the topic is long guns.
Oct 3 2012 12:12PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
that makes no sense less guns=less guns to steal. having more laws like getting a gun safe if buying a gun will make it harder to steal. making it harder to steal will make less guns taken as well making guns on the black market cost more.
Oct 3 2012 12:12PM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,881
You're talking about gun laws banning guns in general, which is not the case here. I'll humor you though and say that yes, less guns available to citizens means less guns for people to steal from them.

So now let me reiterate the concept of smuggled weapons coming into this country. The harder you make it to get guns in the USA, the more we will see a spike in illegal arms trade, which brings with it a much higher chance of crime.
Oct 3 2012 12:16PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
no i personally believe guns should be much harder to get. i don't think we should ban guns all together.
Oct 3 2012 12:21PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
what, you know the difference between coincidence and correlation?

than show me a pro-gun website that knows that too. maybe 2012 IS INDEED THE YEAR.
Oct 3 2012 12:47PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
So you've listed two "factors" that might be different that lead people to commit crimes. The first is drugs. Well, I'm not convinced that Canada's drug laws are significantly different from the U.S.'s, particularly in relation to the kinds of hard drugs that are likely to lead to gun related homicides.

The second of the two factors is "firearms, various weapons that other countries[sic] citizens would never be able to obtain". I'm pretty sure this is my point - the gun control laws in those other countries make those weapons harder to obtain, which leads to fewer people being killed by them. So thanks for agreeing with me.

Add to that that an argument based on culture or other influencing factors might be arguable if you had a difference of, say, 1500 gun deaths to 500 - that's still a big number, but when you're at 10,000 to 300, it's just too big a bridge to gap by saying "it's a bunch of random subtle crap that makes that difference happen". It's just not credible.

Lastly, you're wrong - accidental deaths are not recorded as "homicides", they're recorded as gun deaths (which if I were using those, the U.S. would be around 15,000, not 10,000). But even if you were right, this would be a bad argument against gun control - people dying accidentally because guns are easier to obtain isn't much better than people getting intentionally shot.
Oct 3 2012 1:13PM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,881
tl;dr

Whatever you wrote is wrong, dipshit.
Oct 3 2012 1:17PM
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Amadeus.
Posts: 3050 - Karma: 382
You may consider me uneducated but at least I know how to use evidence to back up my argument instead of pulling shit out of my ass.
Oct 3 2012 1:43PM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,881
Do you honestly consider that graph evidence? If so, I need not say more. I'm off to more pleasant threads.
Oct 3 2012 1:50PM
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BlackCupid
Posts: 1533 - Karma: 9
So you are uneducated?

I can't tell if you just agreed with him or just suck at defending yourself...
Oct 3 2012 1:52PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
Personally, I don't like other people telling me what to own and what not to own. And I can easily kill people without a gun. I would be a pretty dumb criminal to use a gun, since they are so obvious, and easy to track (unless of course you are the BATF, or Eric Holder in which case you are criminally negligent). I'd use something that does not have a serial number on it, like a pencil. Maybe we should ban people carring pencils around. Erasing is overated, and people should get with the modern world, and type everything anyway. Ban Pencils!
Oct 3 2012 2:51PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
good.
Oct 3 2012 2:58PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
trying too hard.

"guns dont kill people" blahablablabla.


obviously, they do. and comparing them with cars or anything else that could be used to kill people is just a bad bad argument by "your" side.
Oct 3 2012 3:04PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
Well considering when push comes to shove, 'my side' has guns, and 'your side' likely does not, 'My side' is going to win.

However, if 'your side' gets their way, guns will just be the first step. People will still find ways to hurt and kill eachother, even if all the bad evil and nasty guns disappeared. Then we will see the move to ban those big nasty and evil weapons like knives, and than axes, and then clubs, and so on and so forth. And soon a good chunk of the stuff you use in your kitchen or garden will be banned or heavily restricted, and you won't be able to buy a car that does not come with a ton of internal restrictions that will keep it from driving faster than the posted speed limit, or going within a certain distance of a crosswalk or a school, and you will have to have a city official come out and 'turn off' the crosswalk restriction around your driveway, but only after you pay for an expensive set of bollards to protect the innocent pedestrians. You will also see a movement to restrict the practice of martial arts, or working out in a weight room, because after all, your body is your first, and last weapon; and it is very lethal.

Or you can just give up your pussy liberal attitude of 'guns are scary, lets ban them' and come have some fun with me and Sam Colt.
Oct 3 2012 3:19PM
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PASKIINGSUCKS
Posts: 9097 - Karma: 777
Bitch and moan all you want. This law is not even what I would call a speedbump in gun rights and it's only one state. If you think guns will ever be banned or need to be banned in the US you are out of your mind.

Hell I'm pro gun and I don't have a major problem with this law being passed. Of course it doesn't really hurt me in any way.

I like to hunt, that's what I keep guns for. I have one for home defense and will probably never use it. I would use it if need be but let's be serious, rural PA isn't exactly the break in capitol of the US. (Warning biased pro gun opinion) Actually IMO you'd have to be fuckin nuts to try and break into a house around here because I'd bet on firearms of some kind being in 8 out of 10 homes.
Oct 3 2012 3:26PM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24704 - Karma: 29,683
Soon he will preeeessss ahhh DENT..


Oct 3 2012 3:26PM
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volvotom
Posts: 2045 - Karma: 712
Most firearms used in crimes are from straw sales.
Oct 3 2012 5:03PM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 269
a bunch of subtle crap? are you serious? no its a bunch of huge factors that give us a huge violent crime rate. canada and these other countries that do not relate at all have nowhere near the gang, immigrant, drug trafficking and plain crime problem that the US has.

my home town has not had one gun related death that ive known of in my lifetime, shit the only one i can find was an accident from like 20 something years ago. yet i dont think i know one person or at least household that does not own multiple guns. i can guarantee our gun ownership per citizen is much much higher than that of some place like oakland, but oakland with their lower gun ownership and strict gun control basically has an infinitely higher gun crime rate than my town. but.. guns kill people? guns are the cause of gun related death? hmm.... doesnt seem to be the case..

california has some of the most strict gun control laws in the country, yet those violent areas of california have some of the highest rates of gun related deaths in the country. washington DC also has some of the most strict gun laws, if not THE highest, yet they have THE highest gun related death rate. Chicago's gun control laws are also among the most strict in the country(ive also heard the most strict), yet they have the most officers killed by gunfire.

now, to me, that doesnt say much for gun control effecting gun crime. if anything it makes it look like it makes it worse, but ill even admit, that other factors are clearly the cause of the problem, the gun control laws dont seem to have a huge effect in either way. we have some very dangerous cities and a crap ton of gangs. its not a subtle difference at all.


Oct 3 2012 5:41PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11630 - Karma: 24,465
precisely why the federal assault weapon ban put in place under clinton expired and wasnt renewed. because it didnt do shit.

Oct 3 2012 6:00PM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423
dear lord, more dumbasses on the interwebz.. Look at when gun purchases skyrocket.. it is AFTER higher murder rates begin or after a mass murder. There was a huge increase in gun sales and prices after the aurora shooting, columbine, pretty much any big shooting because people want to feel protected. The gun purchases are an effect of the violence not the cause.
Oct 3 2012 6:43PM
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Dobies.
Posts: 1835 - Karma: 205
LOL at anyone who thinks stricter gun control laws will reduce gun crimes. I'm not going to state my beliefs on people who commit crimes with guns (especially against police) because I would probably start a hurricane sized shit storm.
Oct 3 2012 7:11PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11630 - Karma: 24,465
this has been the only time ive read "shit storm" and actually imagined a big storm full of shit. Like poo rain and chunky pieces of shit flying around hitting people in the face
Oct 3 2012 7:19PM
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alpacarider
Posts: 290 - Karma: 42
Shouldn't you be at occupy wallstreet or something?

Anyways for or against it just fucking read this
http://www.uwplatt.edu/~wiegmake/Intro_Files/CJ%20-%20paper%20example.pdf

This is about concealed and I realize that but honestly if a criminal is going to shoot someone they are not going to take the chance of alerting the police by open carrying anyway... they are also not going to get a concealed carry permit... if they are already committing a crime why would they worry about getting a permit??? People who go out of their way to get concealed carry permits have honest intentions. If you open carry criminals will still use guns. If you ban concealed carry criminals will still use guns. If you ban guns and ban the manufacture of guns criminals will still use guns... Gun laws just keep honest people from using guns. Guns don't kill people... People kill people
Oct 4 2012 9:17AM
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