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Ricky Gervais on Atheism

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uosdwiSrjewoH
Posts: 4220 - Karma: 121
I hate to create yet another religious shitstorm, but this just explains my views too perfectly

Jan 23 2011 11:01PM
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thugaim
Posts: 2181 - Karma: 33
To be honest i dont know enough about abiogenesis to claim whether it is a good theory or not, but its the belief i hold simply because other alternatives always seem to include the existence of an omnipotent, omnipresent being.
Jan 24 2011 9:22PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
What you said about Darwin not being the end all, be all source anymore is very true and important for the ignorant to learn. But come on man. There is absolutely NO evidence AT ALL that he ever recanted. NONE. To even entertain the thought like you did is fucking retarded. It was claimed in a book written 33 years after his death and all of his family who were present denied it. And to the guy you quoted, irreducible complexity of the eye is as much of a myth as the story of Noah and his ark.
Jan 24 2011 9:24PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
Are you really not going to reply to me? You get fucking destroyed so you retreat to the bullshit spirituality "god is my world" nonsense. You talked a big game in the beginning.
Jan 24 2011 9:26PM
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Chunter
Posts: 2050 - Karma: 1,894
I loved that whole stand up routine about The Book of Noah, it was so funny.

I am a christian but that was one of the funniest things I have heard when he said that at the end of the golden globes. To me; whether its religion, sexual preference or anything else, I believe in the "whatever floats your boat" theory haha.
Jan 24 2011 9:28PM
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mowdapow
Posts: 223 - Karma: 48
Atheists need to learn to accept christians. Accept that people have different beliefs, don't just scream you're wrong. And for people who say religion is should be kept out of modern society completely, Mike-0, don't be so ignorant. Everyone can believe what they want, don't hate on everyone who does.
Jan 24 2011 9:32PM
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Funkadelic
Posts: 1967 - Karma: 391
I agree, I don't really know much about the whole "how to create something out of nothing" science either. I guess I just take the opposing view to you regarding a subject that probably will never have an ultimate conclusion. Either way, it's not an issue I care that much about. I focus more on the natural selection side of things and, while I have an opinion about it, don't really care that much about how everything came to be.
Jan 24 2011 9:35PM
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Funkadelic
Posts: 1967 - Karma: 391
I wasn't entertaining a thought at all that he recanted what he said. I was just stating the mediocre evidence that there is that he did recant... if anything I just showed that there is no reputable source that he did recant.
Jan 24 2011 9:38PM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
you clearly know shit all about the theory of evolution.
Jan 24 2011 9:39PM
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saskskier
Posts: 4772 - Karma: 9,984
I believe God created us and created us with free will, allowing us to make our own decisions. Without this choice we(I) would not be able to love him. This inherently means people have the choice to make good decisions and bad decisions. When bad decisions were made, sin (whether or not you believe in it) entered the world and along with it, pain and suffering. I don't believe God caused this, but allowed it to happen. When we see evil, pain and suffering, we are also able to able to distinguish good, love and compassion.
I cannot speak for God, but I'm pretty sure he isn't stoked on all the pain and suffering in the world, but by in large it comes about by the choices people make.
As a rational, moral human being I read through the bible and I see over and over again that I am to love others. I am supposed to help and care for those who are suffering. That doesn't sound so bad to me.
Jan 24 2011 9:41PM
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thugaim
Posts: 2181 - Karma: 33
>implying babies are born with original sin
>implying that thousands of innocent children don't die every day.

If god wasn't stoked, he wouldn't allow it to happen. He can do anything he wants. He is supposed to be perfect in every way. Yet we can clearly tell that the world we live in is far from perfect.
Jan 24 2011 9:48PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
"I don't believe God caused this, but allowed it to happen." Do you not believe he created everything? "he isn't stoked on all the pain and suffering in the world, but by in large it comes about by the choices people make." Then why create us at all? Does he get off on being worshiped? Or was he just lonely. Of course that would imply he's missing something and thus not perfect. "As a rational, moral human being I read through the bible and I see over and over again that I am to love others." Did you read the same bible as me? Sounds like you learned about it in Sunday School class. There are countless atrocities in the bible including but not limited to (and these are things that God approved of, commanded, or did himself): sexual slavery,the old vanilla workin in the fields slavery, infanticide, genocide, killing nonbelievers, slaughtering the old, innocent, women, and children, the list goes on. While Jesus preached a bit about love, that is a tiny, minuscule fraction of the events described in the bible. "That doesn't sound so bad to me." Sounds pretty fucking horrific if you ask me.
Jan 24 2011 9:53PM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423
how so?! i have made tons of arguments throughout this thread that I still havent heard good evidence refuting?! what bout what i just said makes it seem like i have no knowledge on what i am arguing?
Jan 24 2011 9:53PM
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saskskier
Posts: 4772 - Karma: 9,984
Yes, I'm implying babies are born with original sin and I recognize innocent children die everyday. I don't know what happens to them, but I believe that salvation cannot come without the ability to understand. I don't know what age that is or what level of comprehension that is, and ultimately that's between them and God.
If God stopped everything from happening then we wouldn't have free will and we wouldn't be free to love him. Perhaps the world would be a perfect place, but we wouldn't be able to enjoy it because we wouldn't know any better.
God is perfect, but we, and therefor the world we live in, are not.
Jan 24 2011 10:00PM
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thugaim
Posts: 2181 - Karma: 33
You're suggesting evolution has anything to do with chance.





Jan 24 2011 10:05PM
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thugaim
Posts: 2181 - Karma: 33
Can't really say anything to that. You're a sick fucker if you worship a god who is perfectly fine with millions of innocent people suffering and dying every day.
Jan 24 2011 10:06PM
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Funkadelic
Posts: 1967 - Karma: 391
For a moment I'm going to assume that the whole Adam/Eve argument is true to make a point. See, what bothers me about this whole concept is that the rest of humanity is fated to suffer because of the slight of two people (Adam and Eve). Why should the rest of humanity be forced to suffer because two people a long time didn't have any self control. Seriously, put me in their situation. I'm pretty sure I personally have more self control than 90% of people in this world. If you put me in paradise and tell me there is one thing I could do to ruin it... there is NO WAY I'd do that one thing to ruin it, and I can say that with 100% confidence. So because Adam and Eve didn't have self-control and succumbed to eating the forbidden fruit the rest of humanity is doomed to suffer through sickness and pain? Doesn't seem right to me.
Jan 24 2011 10:10PM
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oreopancake.
Posts: 2596 - Karma: 21
I lol at all the people who survive cancer or whatever and claim God got them through it.

If God has the power to save people from dying if it's "not their time," then why don't people who have been shot ten times or stabbed in the face multiple times survive?
Jan 24 2011 10:14PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
Ok, let's take the bible literally. A loving, all knowing God applies sin to newborns. Sin that they had no hand in committing. Before I continue with that, let's delve a bit deeper into original sin. God created two humans and put them in a fantastic land called Eden. All of their needs were fulfilled, they had no worries and their existed no evil. In fact, God kept the knowledge of evil from them. This he placed in the fruit of a tree in the garden. He said to His new pets "do not eat from this tree." As we all know, Eve was tempted by a serpent and she and Adam ate the fruit and gained the knowledge of good and evil. This, to God, was a terribly evil act. How could they disobey them? Apparently he forgot that whole part about not giving them understanding of good and evil. This brings up another question. How did Adam and Eve have free will in a world where they didn't have any moral decisions to make? They couldn't have. Free will was only gained when the fruit was eaten. This would make the serpent, to some people the devil, the one who brought free will to humanity. All part of Gods plan? He seemed pretty pissed so I doubt that. Here is one of the most basic stories in the bible and even it can't keep its shit straight. But moving on. When this happened, god cursed Adam with labor (a job) and Eve with the pains of childbirth (children). I'd like to send a big thank you to the serpent for that (along with that whole free will thing). But alas, we ended up with sin. This God is so pissed and so vengeful that he would bestow the sins of their ancestors onto babies. What kind of vindictive bastard would do that? If my father murdered someone should I be tried for the crime? Using the logic God uses with sin, you would say yes. Now, moving on to the next part. Free will can't exist without evil. Further proof that humanity gained free will only after original sin was committed. So billions have suffered from the beginning of humanity. Let's not forget that human life has been an insane struggle for all of humanity until roughly 200 years ago. So he allows us this amount of unchecked evil to go on so that we may have free will. Why would he do that? The bible tells us we were created in his image. So he is vain? Maybe he wants others to enjoy his creation. But as we know, there are billions who have found it a terrible place to be. Did he just want worshipers? Then he is an egotistical megalomaniac. Did he need us for some other purpose? If he needed anything he would not be perfect. There is one way he could have stopped all suffering. Never having created us.
Jan 24 2011 10:24PM
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SCOO-WOOP
Posts: 1264 - Karma: 244
Hilarious.

I love Ricky Gervais.

BUT...

I am also religious. Well, not really religious, but spiritual. There is something out there. Whether or not its what we know as God will be seen when we die.

If we go nowhere, then we go nowhere. We wouldn't really be able to know the difference.

If we go somewhere, then we go somewhere and are stoked.


Plus, like N-U-G-G-E-T and I have said before in countless numbers of these threads:

Religion wasn't meant to be something taken literally. It was meant to be a "How To Live a Good Life for Dummies" kind of deal.

Religion was created to help people live good lives, not to kill each other over whose god is real and whose isn't.
Jan 24 2011 10:26PM
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cttc
Posts: 73 - Karma: 13
Ok, so shocker I've been reading all of your arguments and I cant really be bothered to respond to them all, but I thought I would add my two cents at least.

Firstly, I do not have anything against religious people (as long as they don't push their beliefs onto other people), I just think that everyone should have their own decision in what to believe in, and by what moral code to live. Because of this I think it's essential to keep religion out of politics. It would be irrational to try and make everyone (including all atheists) to live by rules that your religion has stated. If the followers of the religion want to follow these rules, then fine, do so, but don't try and make other people live by the moral code of your religion. The role of the state should not be to uphold a religious moral code, but rather to ensure that everyone could pursue their own visions of a good life.
Nowadays American politics have been heavily influenced by the christian right etc, but remember that thoughts like these were what formed a large part of the base of American politics(Robert Nozick's entitlement theory).

If you don't believe me follow this link and read a little (I can especially recommend part d, the bit about utopia):
http://www.iep.utm.edu/nozick/

Secondly, the argument that the eye couldn't have evolved is a very old christian argument that pretty much has been disproved. I say disproved because we haven't witnessed it, and thus cannot be empirically sure, but there are still quite a few good explanations of how it could have happened. Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duBW9QabXfw

Hope I didn't sound offensive, if so, it was not my intention.

Jan 24 2011 10:27PM
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cttc
Posts: 73 - Karma: 13
meant to say a large part of american politics we have today
Jan 24 2011 10:32PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
Religion was created by humans to explain what their senses could not. It's a product of evolution, genetic and cultural. Let's assume you're talking about Christianity when you say religion is a guide. The Bible is hardly a how-to guide for living a good life. Contrary to what you believe, it actually commands that those who follow other religions should be killed. Whether or not the original authors intended for it to be used as a weapon is debatable (though it's hard to mistake "stone the nonbelievers" as anything but hate speech, but look at what religion has been used for throughout history. It has been used to control, enslave, command, and kill.
Jan 24 2011 10:35PM
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the~muffin~man
Posts: 364 - Karma: 76
Click for larger image
Jan 24 2011 10:43PM
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the~muffin~man
Posts: 364 - Karma: 76
hahahahaha
Jan 24 2011 10:45PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
What you are saying is the byproduct of religion. Consolidation of power is very easy when you have a commonality. Look at any genocide ever, Rwanda, the Holocaust, etc. In Rwanda ethnic/cultural differences were used to distinguish another group as "bad" people and then that allowed them to dehumanize and make it justified to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Hitler did the same thing in which he controlled a group with similar beliefs/cultural to dehumanize a different group of people separated by their faith. Not to say that religion is always or most of the cause, but it can be factor in given circumstances.

This is the one major problem I have with a large organized religion. Not only is it another distinguishable barrier between people, but it's debatable if the salvation and benefits of having it around is worth it. I will admit my ignorance to the world. I don't know what happened, but the mystery of life is something that intrigues me deeply. That alone is enough to keep me satisfied fully with my life if it were to end tomorrow. Making the most of every day and as Ricky said "treating others how you want to be treated" are principles I live my life on. I don't choose to be subservient to a God who punishes innocent people via their original sin or some other notion of assumed wrong doing. However, I have no offering of many other theories of my own. Everything I believe is based on MY day to day interactions and not the accounts of others. As soon as you relinquish judgement from your own perception and rely on others you have been lead down a path of someone else's desire. I remind myself daily that the perpetual existence of human labor is always building a new world. We are all interconnected in that way. I don't need questions answered and I am not scared for the future. There are thousands of communities out there if you just use religion for that. The skiing community alone has been more than comforting for me socially and has brought me a lot of joy in life and helped me take an optimistic approach to whatever comes my way. So if I am condemned to hell for the rest of my life because of someone else's judgement of what is sinuous than so be it. However, if I get the chance to talk I will forever use that as evidence against a corrupt system of existence.
Jan 24 2011 11:15PM
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_steffen_
Posts: 903 - Karma: 124
ever have a dream that you feel lasted really long or covered or covered a long period of time. ever lucid dream?
Jan 24 2011 11:30PM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423
I dont really have time to take each persons arguments against mine, however i will just make my final statement. Those of us that believe in religion read books and articles that support our opinion, and this goes the same for the non-religious. I could cite hundreds of books that support my theories and im sure all of you could do the same. So you guys quoting other peoples articles with "facts" doesnt do anything for me, because i could find another professor at some university that would argue the exact opposite point to what you are saying. The bottom line is there are two sides to the argument, and there are reasons for choosing both. Saying that religion should not be in politics is ridiculous, first off, no legislation has come through that is directly imposing christianity on people. saying that the morals have no part in politics is also rediculous, because a large portion of the populations morals are shaped by christianity, and many atheists also have these same morals. Because christians fight for the outlawing of abortion doesnt mean that this is solely a christian belief, there are plenty of non-believers that share this belief, so putting a title on this as christians "pushing their agenda" is completely out of line. I guarentee that if any of you talked to me in person, you wouldnt be quite so disrespectful of my beliefs after realizing i am the exact same as you. Im not some religious bigot who comes at you with hate, and i would expect the same in return, and if i am not given the respect that i give to you then this shows that the maturity in my decisions far outweighs yours, and takes away from your overall argument. the best way for people to get to conclussions is not by bashing others beliefs, but instead stating their own and asking for thought on them, and I feel like there is more bashing going on than anything else coming from an atheists perspective. Overall, i respect your beliefs and see how you can come to the conclussions that you have, but I still hold firm in mine and nothing will change that, especially the bickering of a 14 year old
Jan 24 2011 11:52PM
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SCOO-WOOP
Posts: 1264 - Karma: 244
Guys,

all of your arguments are valid and deserve to be heard/read, but it gets hard when I'm seeing walls and walls and walls and walls of text.


Learn to use paragraphs please? :)
Jan 24 2011 11:55PM
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Funkadelic
Posts: 1967 - Karma: 391
I have read several books trying to debunk evolution and prove Christianity to be right that my mom has given me and I've found a common theme throughout all of them. The authors of these books do not have a true understanding of evolution, and take half-truths and attempt to defraud evolution using those claims. For example, The Case for Christ makes a claim about Archeopteryx regarding the evolution of dinosaurs to birds that is absolutely incorrect. The author took a half-truth about Archeopteryx and made himself look like a moron to anyone in the scientific community that truly understands the evolution of dinosaurs to birds.

I, fortunately, have had the luxury of having grown up in a house entrenched with Bible study and other related Christian books. I have also had extensive classes in college regarding evolution. I think this has put me in a great position to accurately assess both sides of the argument, having read extensive literature both trying to disprove evolution and literature teaching about evolution.

I can assure you, once you take the time to seriously and honestly learn both sides in its complexity, the truth becomes pretty apparent.
Jan 25 2011 12:06AM
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95959
Posts: 2765 - Karma: 377
religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods

We have no priest, no saints, no pope, no messiah, and no god. You must have at least one of these things to be viewed as a religion.

Atheist=non theist. or the belief that no deity exists.

Calling atheism a religion is like calling an African rebel fighter a skier..... He meets absolutely none of the requirements.
Jan 25 2011 12:27AM
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butteredpretzel
Posts: 1484 - Karma: 845
Here is how I see it.

If Atheists are RIGHT: Nothing.

If Christians are RIGHT: A horrifyingly high amount of human beings throughout history will burn in the fiery depths of hell forever.

now....

If Atheists are WRONG: A horrifyingly high amount of human beings throughout history will burn in the fiery depths of hell forever.

If Christians are WRONG: Nothing.


I hope that made sense. Personally I don't care what anyone believes. The only thing that I cant fucking stand is when beliefs (regardless of religion, christianity, atheism, etc) are aggressively pushed upon those who do not share the same beliefs. I hate pompous scripture spouting christian assholes, but I hate atheist assholes who deem the Christian belief invalid as well. All are invited to my religion, Dont-be-an-asshole-ism. We dont discriminate, unless you are an asshole.




Jan 25 2011 12:31AM
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95959
Posts: 2765 - Karma: 377
this is the most back against the wall idioticgnorant(word i just now made up) christian argument of all time.
Jan 25 2011 12:31AM
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IceCreamer
Posts: 1587 - Karma: 27
Is god willing to prevent evil but unable? If so, the deity is as impotent as a newborn baby. Is god able to prevent evil but unwilling? The the deity is depraved. Is he able and willing? Neither?
Jan 25 2011 12:31AM
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cttc
Posts: 73 - Karma: 13
but should we really believe because were scared of hell? why dont you believe because we actually believe.

also, if atheism is wrong =/= christianity is right, it would just mean that any one of thousands of theories could be right.

also, what if you chrisitians were born somewhere else. imagine if you were born in china for example, do you still think you'd be christian?
Jan 25 2011 8:09AM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423
Depends on if i was presented with christianity. I have done a ton of personal "soul searching" and have decided on christianity, i feel like i would do the same if i lived in china unless the idea of christianity was never presented to me
Jan 25 2011 10:06AM
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cttc
Posts: 73 - Karma: 13
so you really don't think your family and community has influenced you at all?
Jan 25 2011 11:11AM
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jibnut
Posts: 3038 - Karma: 304
I am just going to say this for all of those who are in my shoes: my family is not religious and I have seeked out a religious community. I had to make it my own, I've never pushed it on anyone though. It's my decision and I'm okay with that.
Jan 25 2011 11:16AM
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Fish_Sandwich.
Posts: 9108 - Karma: 16
LOL @ anyone arguing for religion in this thread.

Keep holding it down Thugaim, these children are foolish indeed.
Jan 25 2011 11:48AM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423
oh of course. its impossible not to be influenced.. but i do feel like i have been able to step back as I have gotten older, looked at the facts (for me), and decide that faith is what is right for me..
Jan 25 2011 11:53AM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
Keep your faith out of my legislation and my daily life and we'll be best friends. Like you said before, you don't go around flaunting your beliefs, that's a good thing. Neither do I.
Jan 25 2011 12:02PM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423
HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO SAY IT! THE LEGISLATION IN THE UNITED STATES IS NOT FORCING CHRISTIANITY ON ANYONE.. YOU ARE BLATANTLY ARROGANT.. get it that time?!
Jan 25 2011 12:06PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
..and you have Tanner Hall Syndrome, better get that checked out.
Jan 25 2011 12:12PM
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cttc
Posts: 73 - Karma: 13
good for you. I'm just saying we should keep religion out of school and politics to keep an as objective society as possible. Imagine for example a Buddhist school where kids were told that their religion was right and everything else was bullshit. Doesn't sound ideal, does it.
Jan 25 2011 12:32PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
threads
Jan 25 2011 1:05PM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423
So now how many public schools do you know that preach christianity to their students? and how much legislation has been passed that even mentions christianity?
Jan 25 2011 1:11PM
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jibnut
Posts: 3038 - Karma: 304
I don't know about where you live but I grew up around a lot of Christian neighborhoods but our schools never had religion in them. We really didn't even allow "god" clubs in our high school. Politics I fully agree with, because those classes were the worst in school.


I feel like everyone should be able to hold their own opinions and not be swayed either way. I've always been open to everything, I couldn't imagine anything different :) We can sit here and fight for days, but in the end I would rather just go skiing and live my life to the fullest.
Jan 25 2011 1:21PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
It took some time to get some decent opinions in this thread. I still think the spirituality/morality aspect, albeit needed for the the well-being of a person, does not have to derive from religious activity or beliefs.

I too, have grown over the years. I doubt in 2003 I would have been able to express myself like I do now about my beliefs.

And yeah, sorry, I guess I'm not that aware of US governship - I had the idea that governors were also a part of the senate i.e. "Palin is a senator".

Keep on doing your thing. You studied Phil. for 4 years, what are you doing now?
Jan 25 2011 2:02PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
threads
Jan 25 2011 2:59PM
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cttc
Posts: 73 - Karma: 13
Legislation doesn't need to mention anything to be influenced by it.

There are shitloads of religious schools out there brainwashing kids in the community. This is an unfortunate fact.
Jan 25 2011 4:42PM
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shocker611
Posts: 2599 - Karma: 423
religious schools are private, therefore i dont understand how they effect you if you obviously arent attending them. and OF COURSE legislation is going to be affected by the MORALS of the christian religion, but these morals arent only christian, many atheists believe in all of the same morals of the christian faith, so what is wrong with christian morals being in politics?! being against abortion and gay marriage isnt solely a christian belief, and if you dont realize this, again you are just making yourself seem even more ignorant. Name one piece of legislation that only applies to the christian church and no atheists?!
Jan 25 2011 5:14PM
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