School, what a waste of time

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Insane

I consider myself to be far from successful as far as school goes, but i don't consider myself a failure either. I feel like the current education system is flawed, but that this guy's version of it isn't any better. I recently read a few case studies in an Alfie Kohn that was supporting a complete paradigm shift in the school system due to the fact that kids simply arent learning to learn, they are learning to get A's. In the case study, he warned against many things such as letter grades and competitive GPA scholarships, which I feel are the most important aspects of the school community today. The problem with his suggestions to fix these things was that he didn't have any that would actually work. For example, he suggested that instead of letter grades, teachers should institute a check plus, check, check minus system. This is stupid, because these have the same affect as letter grades.

The guy in this video also seems to be incredibly biased, and sets up these straw-man arguments about what our current school situation is about. He says that we are trying to educate these kids to work in a 21st century environment when we don't know what the economy will be like next week. We have never known what the economy will look like. Second, he says that all of the past generation was brought up to believe that you had to grow up, go to college, and that would lead to a good job. Essesntially, the past genertion has been taught that college guarntees a job. I disagree with this as well. Going to college has never been a guarntee for anything, except for a boosted resume.

Another part of the video talks about age groups (I think, it might have been a different RSAanimate video) and how we categorize kids based on their age groups. He sees a problem with that, whereas i do not. Sure there are a few strays within the system who are either ahead of or behind their time education wise, but they are taken care of, there are programs for those kids and there are opportunities for more challenging school environments for kids who don't feel challenged enough.

I may be slightly biased, but even so, definitely not as biased as the man presenting these "findings" that have really been an obvious part of culture for a very long time.

The school system is definitely flawed, but that is because people suck, not because the system itself is flawed.

Dec 15 2010 1:30AM

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Bar_Down

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^ true

the way i look at it though, like thugaim said really, is i dont think the guy was telling us his opinions on what needs to be done and how he thinks it should be, if you listen closely i dont think he ever says "this should change and become this" he just shows that maybe we should start looking at it in different ways and try to keep an open mind to other possibilities, hes just like introducing the debate type of thing

Dec 15 2010 1:34AM

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JamesR

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Something you sort of touched on there was the teaching for the grade or more often referred to, teaching for the test. Education has become a contest of who can memorize the most without making connections between subjects that would produce real learning. Kids are being taught what to learn rather than how to think. That's the main problem with education today.

Dec 15 2010 1:34AM

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Just read that in English and had to write an essay. Personally, English is harder for me than any other subject, it's hard for me to concentrate on writing ona blank piece of paper. I' good with mathematics and stuff like that, or world studies.

Dec 15 2010 1:37AM

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paige.

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I was actually in a program like this for a year in elementary school (Vancouverites will know it as the MACC... we were the crazy kids).

The idea was that the structure of a normal class was too limiting and caused kids to act out. So we were given a class with 15 kids (gr 5-7), no letter grades, and no set curriculum. It was a really cool experience. It was interesting to see how, when given the chance, these elementary school kids would act far beyond peoples expectation. We studied math at our own pace - for some, like me that meant barely keeping up with grade level, but on the other hand half the kids were ahead by a year or two. One boy was in gr. 6 and getting tutored in university level math. We got to choose our own novels for literature study and kids were choosing things like 1984, Shogun and Stranger in a Strange Land.

Because we didn't follow the standard curriculum there was room for us to study what we were actually interested in. We generally got to do one big project per subject and were given next to no guidance. The lack of structure meant we spent the majority of our class time fooling around and projects NEVER got handed in on time. But at the same time the finished product was almost always far beyond what would be expected in a normal class room. Eleven year olds writing 5 page essays on Lord of the Flies? A twelve year old spending hours each week at the Hastings Mill Store Museum so she could learn every little bit of that part of her cities history? Kids would never be given these chances in a normal classroom. Kids don't even want to excel in a normal classroom. But give them the chance to work on something they actually care about and the results are impressive.

I think at the lower grades our system is working pretty well - kids are learning to read and write, add and subtract. These are things that form the background of our lives and are basics that everyone needs. More importantly these early years help teach us social skills for interacting with others. But soon after this the majority of school is a waste of time. So many of the things I 'learned' were forgotten the second I handed in the test. Who is benefitting from this? Not me, and not the people's whose tax dollars paid for me to be there. I probably would have gotten more out of being let loose in the library for a few hours each day.

Dec 15 2010 1:40AM

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Insane

how do you propose we fix this?

i also somewhat disagree with this as well. though i believe that kids should focus more on the learning process rather than memorizing direct material, i feeel like it's been working out so far

i know this isn't a thread about Alfie Kohn, but what you said is pretty much a skimmed down version of his ideas. Kohn says that whenever a student is asking "whether or not this will be on the test," they are really "crying out for help, because well meaning people sucked the drive to learn right out of me"
I found that to be incredibly one sided and rather appalling. Rather than seeking a solution, Alfie Kohn focused more on identifying the problem. Thats what this gentlemen has done in the video

Dec 15 2010 1:41AM

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I get what ur saying. The whole grade thing is stupid. I recently took a class when the proffesor walked in the first day and told us we were all going to get A's. I'll let you know that there are no assignments or tests in this class only a presentation at the end (with no report?). So basically the class is very interesting so I still went to everyclass. I also worked very hard on the presentation (even though I didn't need to) because I just didn't want to disapont him. His incentives were not the good grade instead he gave $500 to the best idea. His other incentive was that the top 3 ideas will be continued as independent research the following semester if you wanted and he and the school would provide the resources to do so.

The way he describes 21st century jobs is correct though. These days you are going to school for jobs that do not yet exist, and everything is fast paced.

Dec 15 2010 1:41AM

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klayer_9

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Great thread, I love these animations.

This really brings up some good points, I wonder how much more creative i could have been without elementary school....

Dec 15 2010 1:43AM

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Insane

this is very similar to the structure of one of my favorite classes in high school. While i see it working in this situation, how do you apply it in the field of mathematics or biology? a field where a kid knows nothing about anything, and lacks the means to find out anything else?

I love the class like that that i am in, and it is essentially an "easy A," but it's an A you still want to learn

I just don't see it working in other fields

Dec 15 2010 1:44AM

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Standardized testing and "the no child left behind act" make this situation worse. Basically your school gets money from the government if your test scores are very high or very low. This encurages teaching for the test to get them high or not teaching well at all. There is no incentive for the average here which is a major problem

Dec 15 2010 1:45AM

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Insane

thats exactly the problem though. Identifying a problem that most people are already aware of isn't benefiting anybody. I'm glad he made the video though, it allows me to consider what actually is and is not flawed in the system (in my own opinion)

That said, it still annoys me that no solution is suggested

Dec 15 2010 1:46AM

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Bar_Down

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ya, no solution is suggested in this particular video, but i guarantee you people are working on it for sure

Dec 15 2010 1:48AM

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Insane

like i said in an earlier post

the system is flawed because people suck, not the system itself

I am slightly to the right politically, but i think Bush was an idiot for thinking that would work. In the book Freakonomics, it goes into detail about how this No Child Left Behind act induced the cheating of teachers, faking student's test answers in order to get a raise. This essentially ruins the students education for that year, as they are left without decent feedback on their performance

Dec 15 2010 1:49AM

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I agree with you 100%. I'd rather have school teaching us the basics, not about stuff that won't help us progress later in life when we dpn't have our teachers to fall back upon. The school system should most definately change (to what, I am not sure), nowadays, the only reason people are trying in certain classes is to get a good grade, not to actually learn.

I can also see the opinion from those who oppose my above statement, but I ask you, how often do you see people in class constantly taking notes and paying attention? Depending on the school and class, (AP, regular, etc.) it really isn't going on that much.

Another point I can bring up is an example of doing a worksheet. You are assigned this worksheet with a list of quesitons and all that you are given is a textbook, say this is Euro Studies. I know I am not the only one who does this, but I look at the essential information in the question, then skim through the text and try and find the key words.

In doing this, I get the work done as fast as possible, so I can work on other stuff or just relax, but in the end, I learn probably about 1/2 of what I could if I would have read through everything and tried. But I didn't/don't, and that's how most people in this flawed education system of America attempt to get by in school.

/end rant?

Dec 15 2010 1:50AM

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Insane

they've been "working on it" for a solid 20+ years. Any addition made seems to take us further away from the goal

people need to stop focusing on "what the norm wants" and more on what the individual needs

Dec 15 2010 1:50AM

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This method was applied in a type of science field. The class is MEMS or Micro Electrical Mechanical Systems. I didnt know anything of this feild, and it is hard to understand because different forces react differently at the micro and nano scale (so some things about physics and other sciences apply differently). The proffesor taught the class by bringing in every thing we already know as an engineer major (basic physics, chem, material) and explaining scale laws. Then it was up to you to go more indepth and do research for your presentation. I don't see this being a problem to be applied to science but math is a different story.

Dec 15 2010 1:52AM

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Insane

A lot actually

Statements like "how often do you see people taking notes" are kind of ignorant, as there are actually plenty of kids that I see everyday working studiously in order to achieve their goals. As for worksheets, i agree, but worksheets aren't the only method of teaching there is

Dec 15 2010 1:55AM

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Insane

i was thinking more biology, but that does actually sound interesting

Math was also more where i was going with that statement

Dec 15 2010 1:56AM

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paige.

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What's needed is variation. What works in different subjects is completely different. What works for different people is completely different.

Yes math needs to be quite structured. But at the same time math questions have one correct answer and except for very very few people you will never get to the point where creativity would come in. But marking essays based beyond the grammar is completely different. Forcing someone to read a story and spew out the teachers predetermined symbols is the problem.

Dec 15 2010 2:01AM

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I didn't mean it directly like that. I meant like kids consistently, putting 110% into the work that isn't forced upon them, but rather frowned upon if they don't do it.

And yeah the worksheet thing was the only thing I could think of right at that second, sorry.

Dec 15 2010 2:01AM

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Insane

dont apologize, it was still a valid arguement

work that isn't forced upon people should be work that people enjoy, otherwise, it defeats the purpose.

If a teacher says "he's a hard project that you arent going to enjoy, but you dont HAVE to do it" how many people would do it?

you need to add incentive if you aren't going to force something
the carrot is always greater than the stick in my opinion

Dec 15 2010 2:07AM

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And now after you recognizing, explaining, and validating your point, I understand where your're coming from. There will always be two sides to every argument, and the only way for the other to understand is by explaining, and you did.

Dec 15 2010 2:19AM

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Insane

...thanks?

Dec 15 2010 2:25AM

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.SillyGoose

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Loner

I am not going to a college

If i do go to college and graduate, I am not guaranteed a job. Also i would have to get student loans even with scholarships. I do not find 1-2 years in debt worth a 20% more chance of getting a job.

Dec 15 2010 2:31AM

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Cthulhu

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im the type of person that hates school but loves learnig. like theron said i cant deal with everyone elses shit while im there, i learn 10X more if i stay home and read or watch the history chanel

Dec 15 2010 9:00AM

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fujarome

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the problem here is funding, not the teachers or the school. The system as it is now, is based pretty much entirely on test scores. So the only way they can get by is if the kids know the information on the test. Whether they actually know what they are talking about or not is irrelevant, so long as they pass the tests. And what choice do the schools have? Not teach them the way the test demands they do, have the students do poorly, get less funding, and in the end, offer less? No one wins there. There might be a few years of students who grasp all the knowledge, but not as required by the test, but thats the best possible result.

How else could they properly assess it?

Essays, and papers are a good way because they force the student to analyze the information, do some research, and gather up real knowledge in order to do good job assessing and analyzing in order to truly understand it.

The problem with that is that it can be hit or miss. If you get the wrong idea in your mind, you could spend hours doing good work and research, and even write a decent paper...but if the idea is off, the entire paper will be useless. And students are fucking lazy as hell these days. There are people in college level classes complaining about a 5 page paper. A test means you can cram and study a semester's worth of information in a few days, and get a decent grade. A similar mark on a paper would require weeks of reading and attending class, then a few days of writing. People just don't want to do the work.

You get out of school what you put into it. If you don't want to commit an hour to complete some work, why should a teacher go out of their way and work harder to get you to do it? I went to public schools my whole life, worked hard, got pretty good grades, got into a good college, and am continuing to work my ass off at it. Didn't always enjoy it. But if you go in thinking it's waste of time, useless, and so on, it pretty much is, because you've already given up.

Dec 15 2010 9:20AM

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Well I agree on with you that you have to work hard. I have and am in a similar situation as you. The fact is you have to look at the general public or in my case my fellow classmates. Most of my friends were never motivated enough in school to give them the chance to try harderand they therefore ended up going to a comunity college and still not trying. I guess it goes back to funding though because in upperclass private schools the teaching is alot different and students are incuraged in different ways.

Dec 15 2010 10:43AM

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Alkyy

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I feel ya, im done with my major, minor and all my gen ed requirnments. yet i still have to pay for a last semester taking pointless elective classes...3,000 extra dollars to get my name printed on the deploma not for any real education.

Dec 15 2010 10:43AM

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Ski..4..Life

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very interesting point and he had some really good points.
but i find that its not so much about what they are teaching you its more about the teacher themselves.
everyone has had teachers they love and teachers they hate. the ones you hate make it difficult to want to learn and thus your focus fades and your creativity is lost.
However, when you have a good teacher who is actually interested in helping the students the learn and grow they usually enjoy the class more, become more involved and are allowed to be more creative.

for example in high school i had english teachers that i loved and hated.
The one that i hated wanted you to write every paper,essay, paragraph, assignment the way she did, if you varied from her format or style points were deducted. frankly this sucked for me cause i hate following a format when i write and prefer to just pour my thoughts onto the page, it limited my creativity and me write in a way i didn't like if i wanted a good grade.

On the other hand the teacher i loved allowed us to express ourselves. for our big essay he gave us a wide choice of topics and said either defend for or against it. there was no format or style we had to follow and you could write it anyway you wanted. this was great as i could just write.
For the most part he said people would still follow the 5 paragraph format because its what they had been taught in school. But the people that wrote it in different ways had much more persuasive arguments for the most part and were able to get their point across.
I essentially wrote out an argument between two people. it made me question myself on both sides and i found it difficult to come up with an ending point. others he said wrote it out has a court proceeding or a debate, or still wrote an essay but just in new and workable formats.

i may have just gone completely off-topic there but those are my thoughts on how school should be taught mainly.

sparknotes: read the entire thing and don't be so dam lazy.

Dec 15 2010 12:33PM

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Anathema

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how else were you going to learn that the iroquois lived in longhouses

Dec 15 2010 12:37PM

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TaySwift

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fuck school, at it right now. waste of time for me. all my friends are in grade 10, im in grade 9

Dec 15 2010 12:39PM

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Mike-O

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Crazy Fool

Often misdiagnosed and to keep really active kids off the minds off parents and faculty, but you know when it's the real deal, can be nuts.

How severe is yours and are you on medication?

Dec 15 2010 12:43PM

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GayWolf420

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Basement Dweller

Pretty bad. To the point where I just can't focus on one thing at a time with multiple things near me. I get side tracked very easily. Its hard for me to stay on task. I do take a bit of medication for it. But I am trying to tone it down so I can take it only when I really need it.

Dec 15 2010 12:50PM

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Anathema

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like a passofier shoved in a baby's mouth to shut it up

Dec 15 2010 12:52PM

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Wall_Nut

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Ted (I presume?) is absolutely right, the old system is tragically flawed. However, the question that naturally follows is "How do we change it?"
JamesR touched on a point that can be summarized as 'We are learning how to memorize rather than how to think cohesively and connect ideas for ourselves.' So the problem is, we need to have a shift in the way we are actually receiving the information. I would be a fool to say I could singlehandedly lay out a new design, but I do have a few proposals:

-First, Divide the students by means of learning mechanisms (some people are visual learners, some are cognitive(sensory, they have to actually DO the thing) learners, some are auditory(verbal instructions), and a small percentage will be theoretical(understanding of mathematics/reasoning/core concepts behind subject of study)
-Then, classes can be oriented around the style of learning that each sub-group of the student body prefers. Naturally, the classes can be further divvied up if necessary (there should be no more than 8 or so students per teacher to facilitate a group environment)
-Classes could still be organized for a convenient 6-hour day bell system, but 1 day a week minimum would be set aside for an Aesthetic experience, preferably relating to subject of interest
-Philosophy would be tied into all subjects, and history would be significantly reduced (too many names and numbers and facts and dates to memorize, hideously unproductive for career preparation)
-Foreign Languages and CORE REASONING PRINCIPLES/VALUES (such as honesty, dilligence, LOVE, etc...) would be taught and re-taught to the youngest age groups

.....I seem to have gone on a mind-tangent. There are a few of my ideas.

Dec 15 2010 1:00PM

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If I have kids I don't care how bad of ADD they have I will never give them those drugs. I have a friend thats dependant and hes a mess, its pretty sad.

Dec 15 2010 1:02PM

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Rbamf

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take it from someone who's been there done that and now in the real world. typing this from my work computer.

ENJOY THAT SHIT WHILE IT LASTS

Dec 15 2010 1:03PM

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GayWolf420

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That explains why I am trying to take a lot more less of it. or maybe just stop taking it at all. Whenever I am on it, It takes away my personality. But I helps me get work done.

Dec 15 2010 1:05PM

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