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Camcorder Format/Media Type Discussion

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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

As anyone looking into buying a camcorder will tell you, it's aggravating to find recent, relevant information reagrding which type of media is best to record to.  I know this can be subjective, but I thought a thread like this would be helpful to get different opinions and perspectives. 

I've seen this discussed/debated in other threads, but it is often buried down in the replies for some camera advice thread, or the thread is old and new advancements have come out which change everything.  For example, a few months ago people might have knocked flash memory because the cards were too small or expensive, but now people like them cause they're light and have no moving parts.

So all I'm looking for here is some input from anyone with experience to discuss pros/cons of the different recording types (miniDV, HDV, HDD, Flash, AVCHD) relating to both ski/sports filming as well as regular stuff.  Maybe we could also get into some discussions about buying older, more "prosumer" cameras vs. newer HD and what not.  Who knows.  For now my hope is that this could maybe get stickied and constantly be updated as new things are released and prices change or w/e.

Dec 15 2009 7:50PM
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A.Eberhard
Posts: 4426 - Karma: 415
Good thread idea! Should get all those what camera to get threads to disappear. Also it will help people get a better idea on what camera to get with lots of opinions.

If your going to buy a mini dv camera a.k.a tape the one problem I don't like about it is worrying about drop outs occurring and ruining your footage from a good ski day.
AVCHD though is not to many people have a powerful enough computer to edit the footage. Very important thing to remember! Nothing worse then buying a sick ass camera and not being able to edit the footage. I heard the workflow for AVCHD on macs is still not that great ,but don't know if that is true.
Dec 15 2009 7:59PM
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Ignorant
Posts: 107 - Karma: 15
what sort of comparison is there between super compact HD camcorder like the Kodak Zi8 (1080p, 60fps at 720p) and something like the JVC Everio GZ-HD40, is the Zi8 a strong alternitive for ski filming?
Dec 15 2009 8:44PM
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eheath
Posts: 61107 - Karma: 118,279
As for media type, the more you spend the better its gonna get. In a line it goes

1.P2 and xdcam (camera $$$$)
2.AVCHD (flash, camera $-$$$)
3.HDV, SD(DV) (camera $-$$$)

For now, as long as you have a decent computer, flash is IMO the best, affordable media type.
Dec 15 2009 10:05PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287
any opinions on where you see the future heading towards?  say maybe by this time next year, do you think SD will even be mentioned?
Dec 15 2009 10:22PM
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Jwenz
Posts: 8893 - Karma: 7,633
as p2 cards come down in price that is where it is going. I love it, only draw back is all footage has to be backed up on the computer. and he did mention SD cards...AVCHD films to SD cards...hmc and what not...that is where the medium is going right now. away from tapes. tapes suck. drop outs, dirty heads, rewinding, etc...dumnb
Dec 15 2009 10:33PM
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eheath
Posts: 61107 - Karma: 118,279
p2 and xdcam, high bit rate memory cards are the future.
Dec 15 2009 10:36PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287
SD i meant standard definition.  will anyone even think about filming in standard definition within a year?
Dec 15 2009 10:42PM
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dergblerp
Posts: 1303 - Karma: 77
The 'what camera' threads would disappear if people could just use the fucking searchbar, or maybe do some research on their own.  You can argue over cameras and formats all day, but when it comes down to it, every person has slightly different needs, and has to decide what the right camera is to meet those needs.  If you want to buy a camera go to www.dvinfo.net or www.dvxuser.com, and start reading some forums and figure it out for yourself.  All the info is out there and EASILY accessible on these topics.
Dec 16 2009 12:06AM
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eheath
Posts: 61107 - Karma: 118,279
Yes, SD will be around for awhile still since SD still looks great when played on dvd and a SD tv, which alot of people will still have. Now 5-10 years, i could see SD not being around much more.
Dec 16 2009 12:36AM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287
yea we know it's out there, that's just the problem.  if the info is right here kids won't have to go searching around so much.  and no where else can you find such a large group of skiers who have experience with different types of cameras and will be able to give first-hand knowledge of what they learned.
Dec 16 2009 1:05AM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

ok well im sure this is a question that has been addressed before, but let's say im in the market for a camera.  i'm pretty much a beginner but i will definately be pursuing this hobby and would like to eventually get serious with filming (not only sking).  here's the pickle- do i go for a used older "prosumer" camera like a gl2 or dvx100 (i know they're totally different) or do i go for something newer that shoots in HD like the hv30?

imagine that i could get a gl2 for $700, a dvx100 for $1100 and a hv30 for $500.

i know there might be some kind of flaw here in my question, but the main idea is this: older, more manual friendly camera vs newer more advanced technology

Dec 17 2009 3:48PM
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DBeck
Posts: 1275 - Karma: 63
alot of it depends on sound though too, not just picture. For NS most kids don't use sound, or even think about it when they're making an edit of them and their friends, which for that situation is just fine. But, if you're going to be making short films or anything requiring good audio you'll need xlr ports. So it depends on your situation and needs.
Dec 17 2009 4:23PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

ok thanks for the help so far.  i'm looking at the hv30/40 and the hf s100 right now trying to compare which would work better for me if i can get the funds for either.  let's say i could find the hv30/40 for under 700 and the hf s100 for under 900.  i really like the tapeless idea with the hf s100 but like i've seen discussed before, idk if my computer is up to par.  im not sure what stats are important but i only have a 2ghz system with 3gb of ram which im thinknig might be too basic.

the other factor im considering is the accesories.  if i get the more expensive s100 that's less extra i can buy for the camera.  if i get the hv30/40 i can look into a wide angle and better tripod and other stuff.  any opinions?

Dec 24 2009 11:52PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287
and if it helps i'll probably mainly be filming skiing and other little edits just playing around.  maybe eventually surfing and some other stuff if i can afford everything needed.  i really wish u could edit posts
Dec 25 2009 12:21AM
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Ftacnik
Posts: 1997 - Karma: 111

Bump cause i kinda have the same questions...

Except i don't really have the extra money to buy the Hf s100 (I know thats a relatively cheap camera)

So i was thinking about getting the HF10... I saw some footage from it and it looked pretty nice to me.

Heres the review

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/canon-vixia-hf10/4505-6500_7-32786396.html?tag=rnav

If someone could tell me if this would be a good or bad choice or if there are better cameras in that price range that would be great

Sorry if this was a thread jack just didn't wana make another "What Camera?" Thread

Dec 30 2009 2:55PM
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Bentley@DOSMedia
Posts: 1410 - Karma: 1,827
Exactly.
Plus a camera like a DVX still gets better colors then those little HD handy cams that everyone is buying. Right now there are great SD cams like the DVX that many people buy so that they can jump into filming. There is so much more you can do and learn with something like a DVX (or VX) that you can not do on those HD handy cams.
Im afraid that many people will start buying HV30s and such just because they are HD and then they will jump right to something like an HVX not knowing anything about the camera or any of the settings.

Therefore, for people that are trying to get into filming and really want to learn how to use a camera, prosumer SD cams will be their best choice for the next 5 or so years.

Thats just adding on to what Evan said about how DVD is still the most popular format by far, and prosumer SD cams still look great on standard DVDs.
Dec 30 2009 3:49PM
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Ftacnik
Posts: 1997 - Karma: 111

What would a nice DVX camera be? Sorry new to filming and stuff

Dec 30 2009 3:55PM
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eheath
Posts: 61107 - Karma: 118,279
DVX is a camera, panasonic AG-DVX100a or 100b.
Dec 30 2009 4:12PM
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Ftacnik
Posts: 1997 - Karma: 111
Oh ok thanks... Little out of my price range
Dec 30 2009 4:36PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

i think that pretty much cleared it up for me.  it would be more worth it then to invest in a dvx and learn to use it and progress and then think about an upgrade, than buying a hv30 or equivilant and then spending money on a wide angle and other stuff for it?  it's undeniable that some consumer cameras can generate a great image, but for someone who is really looking to go further into filming than putting the camera on auto and letting it go, the dvx or similar is a beter choice?

and about the dvd part, what if i'm not really going to be publishing to dvd and it's mainly just gonna be like posting on the internet?  im guessing the answer is the same but just wanted to clarify.

Dec 30 2009 11:26PM
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Jwenz
Posts: 8893 - Karma: 7,633
if you are looking to get learned and really get into filming id say Dvx. although its SD that will still be prevelant for the next 5 years like evan said. IMO DVX footy online looks better than an hv30. that is just me though. i had this conversation with a friend of mine about a month ago and he went with the dvx and LOVES it. and when you are looking to upgrade in 3 to 4 years or sooner you will have an easier transition to something like a hvx or hpx. now my personal situation i fucked up. i had a gl2 then went straight to a hvx. quite the learning curve and obviously i am still learning and trying my best to get the best colors and what not. but having a dvx initially would have been very beneficial when that upgrade to hvx came. just my .04 cents
Dec 31 2009 9:58AM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

^good info that definately helps.  on one hand though i just want a kinda small light camera like the hv30 or hf s100 that can produce some pretty good images without a lot of work, and just fool around with follow cams and other fun stuff.  but then another part of me really wants to get into filming and learn as much as possible so i can continue to progress.

i guess the ideal situation would be to just buy both

Dec 31 2009 2:42PM
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Bentley@DOSMedia
Posts: 1410 - Karma: 1,827
Exactly!

If you want to learn how to use a camera I highly recommend one. Get some filters and learn some about those as well. Basically I would consider the DVX a stepping stone to an indy style HD camera like an HVX.

The DVX can look very good online as well. It has extremely good colors and when you learn to use it there is a lot of good things you can do with it.

Take a look at some of Landis's old stuff if its still around. He has a HMC 150 now, but he still uses his DVX all the time.
Dec 31 2009 3:15PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

^ok sweet thanks a lot for the help.  i've ben checking out some footage from dvx's on vimeo and there's a lot of great stuff. 

any ideas on a resonable price for a dvx?  i've seen a few 100b's in the range of like 1300-1500 but that might be more than i can spend

Dec 31 2009 4:20PM
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A.Eberhard
Posts: 4426 - Karma: 415
Well between the hf10 and the hfs100 there is not much differece. If I'm correct doesn't the hf10 just have and the hfs100 is that the hf10 has a 32gb internal flash memory? So I guess it depends if you want an internal memory or not personally I would just go with the cheaper one.
Dec 31 2009 7:25PM
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Ftacnik
Posts: 1997 - Karma: 111
The Hf s100 has a bigger lense... I believe the hf10 has 16gb flash memory but has a smaller lense
Dec 31 2009 9:52PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287
any hd cams with good manual control and ability to progress and learn that are under $1500 used? i keep seeing comparisons between fx7's and hmc40's and others but im not too sure what would be best to start out on
Jan 2 2010 5:11PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

ok so another pickle.  i won't be transferring until fall of this year so im trying to decide between getting a camera now or waiting till summer. 

if i buy a camera now i can start learning early and get some good experience especially with winter stuff.  however, i don't have that much money and i'll be spending pretty much all i have a camera like a dvx.

if i buy a camera over the summer the prices will be lower and i'll possibly have more money to spend, but i will have lost all of that time not filming.  any opinions?

Jan 8 2010 6:02PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

any tips?

Jan 10 2010 8:54PM
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ryanschindler
Posts: 80 - Karma: 41
if i were you i'd buy a hv30 or hv20 with your money insted of the DVX. the future is toward HD, and although the dvx is a much better professional grade camera, the HV series shoot much better quality, and still 24p, 30p, and 60i. I would buy that, and a .3 death lens, or a 35mm adaptor such as the jag35 (www.jag35.com). This will turn out better.



anyway back to the topic.
miniDV

pros: You won't lose a clip if your hard drive collapses. with all the new media you erase your clips once you import them, but mini DV lasts forever in tapes (if you name them right)
Jan 10 2010 9:20PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

thanks for the reply but we've kind of been discussing this.  true the hv's can produce a great image and with some add-ons they can be really great, but if i want to learn to really use a camera and learn about filming i think the general consensus is that a dvx is a better choice.  sacrificing the HD for manual control kind of sucks, as the ideal choice would be to have both, so im trying to decide if maybe i should wait till summer and try and pick up a used hmc or something when hopefully the prices have dropped.

Jan 10 2010 9:39PM
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Trent_Palmer
Posts: 226 - Karma: 936
1. R3D/RED

2 is getting a little close, a year ago P2 was by far better then all the .H264 codecs (AVCHD) but now that computers are getting so damn fast and the compression is getting better they are getting pretty comparable, still get a higher bitrate with P2 but that doesnt always mean better quality.

3. HDV
Jan 11 2010 11:38AM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

Aright should be last question for me here.  Pretty much just about dvx100a vs b

I'm seeing good deals for the "a" where I could get some batteries and other stuff for under $1000, or there's also a few "b's" that i've seen just over $1000 but they don't include as much.  basically just wondering if the b was enough of an upgrade to warrant spending more money when I'm on a budget like mine.  obsiously spending less means more to spend on a tripod and stuff.

Jan 13 2010 4:51PM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287

just felt like i should give and update/review. 

long story short, things worked out and i got a dvx100 and dvx100a for $800. sold the 100 for 830ish on ebay so with fees i pretty much got the 800 back and had a free dvx100a with 72 or so hours on it.  love the camera so much, even if i had payed $900 i would be stoked on it because i'm learning so much and having a lot of fun.  the whole non-hd thing i was worried about pretty much dissapeared once i learned to use the camera.  colors and quality are awesome for a standard def cam and it's super easy to use once you learn about it.  there's still tons i dont know and a lot more stuff i wanna shoot, but for the 2 and a half months ive had it i couldnt be happier

Apr 14 2010 10:09AM
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horner
Posts: 2439 - Karma: 1,578
You got 2 dvx's for $800? how?
Apr 14 2010 10:17AM
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foodisfun
Posts: 5427 - Karma: 287
craigslist haha. 2 dvx's, 4 batteries, wide angle, and custom underwater housing for $700 but i needed it shipped so it was $800. got reallllllly hooked up
Apr 14 2010 1:32PM
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1337
Posts: 31038 - Karma: 29,003
agreed x100

I would kill for an HMC150 though
Apr 14 2010 2:17PM
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miroz
Posts: 10333 - Karma: 3,947
Whattttttttttt the fuck, that's outrageous.  You, my friend, are a handy businessman.  Good call on the DVX, too, there's not another cam like it for many dollars around.
Apr 14 2010 2:44PM
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[-mvee-]
Posts: 1713 - Karma: 10
no way, ive never seen a deal like that before, not even on craigslist. so tight
Apr 14 2010 4:11PM
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