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Leftist Anachism? Isn't that an oxymoron?

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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
Well it sure sounds like one. It contradicts it self rather well. Why then, is it so popular? Or is it just trendy? A way to be a Anarchist without being a right-wing-almost-Nazi.

Leftism is quite interesting. I won't make any quick definitions of what it is, because they'll prolly be wrong, so I'll just rant a little. Easier that way. Social responiblity is important. Those of you who read (and understood) The Lord of the Flies realize this. Without a social conscience, it would seem we are to prone to cheating. Altruism sucks. Cheating is easier. But we are human, and we do feel shame. That what the Left is a product of. Welfare protects citizens from artifical savagery, brought about by the unbalance of wealth. Regulation also protects us, the majority, from the rich minority, whose wealth is dirived from our need and the manipulation of. But this comes at a cost. Goverment is not totally responsible. Some are more than others, but there's always coruption of some sort. Be-it finacial, or simply biased becaused of opinion, the uneven grasp of power is sure to upset some. But rarely to goverment itself.

But then there's Anarchism. Anti-Nationalism. Anarchist (rational one anyways) beive that the goverment should be abolished. But this it would seem is very similar to the right-wing's objective; localized democracy. Anarchism simply takes it a bit further, free people from taxes, encouraging, and infact relying upon cooperation. Rather utpoian. But fashionable. And trendy. The key idea behind Anarchism is the abolition of goverment. But, what's the difference between Right-wing 'Conservitives' and Anarchists? Right-wingers are often stuborn people who simply don't want to be controlled by white-hearted Liberals, who take their money and give it to the infirm. In a sense, right-wingers are simple minded savages who don't give a dam about social responiblity. But Anarchists do. Sorta. Communism/Socialism with the almighty, opressive goverment, is the goal of Anarchists. Cooperation. A return to a good fair game of Tit For Tat. No cheating. But it seems naive to assume people will be so virtueous. And it is. Almost Utopian.

But where do these fit together?
Leftism: Social responsiblity brought about by goverment control (opinionated)
Anarchism: Elimination of goverment to allow a cooperative, non oppressive society.

I realize that this is poorly written and leaves many thing unsaid. Some of the things said in may be very wrong. Feel free to correct me. I'd like it. And then add your three cents to the matter, maybe we'll all learn something. Cheers.




-malcontent anti-corporate buddist leftist anarchist taoist.

Adbusters
Apr 30 2002 8:55PM
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Gdawg3
Posts: 1956 - Karma: 10
Anarchy has to be one of the most insane concepts I've ever heard of. If people were virtuous enough to live without the control of any sort of government, we wouldn't have the problems that we do have today. I personally would hate to live without a government, even in a utopian society, because there will always be people with messed up genes who kill, steal, maim, rape, etc. We need the protection of the government, and always will.

'Victory? We're French, we don't even have a word for it.'

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Apr 30 2002 9:16PM
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Schwags
Posts: 4692 - Karma: 399
it would be like nature without government... the fittest survive... but were too intelligent for that i guess and have morals.



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Apr 30 2002 9:20PM
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Nine_Milla_Killa
Posts: 6783 - Karma: 23
Think of a political spectrum as a circle instead of a straight line. So if that the FAR left and FAR right are both very close to each other.
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Apr 30 2002 9:22PM
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coz
Posts: 1754 - Karma: 11
sorry, i'm kinda missing what you're trying to say? or are u just trying to understand the 2 different concepts? is there a thesis? i'm tired and therefore inconprehensive.
Apr 30 2002 9:30PM
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FreshCoast
Posts: 5602 - Karma: 34
Yeah I used to think of the political spectrum as a line but then realized that boths ends are very similar. It makes political idealogy that much easier to understand.

EX. The Communist of Russia and the Facist of Germany or Italy. Both hated each other and on oppisate 'sides' of the spectrum but both very similar. They both had an extreme dicator. Living under similar rule and policies.

So you can see it is actually possible to be a Leftist Anarchist.
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Apr 30 2002 9:53PM
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c_lo
Posts: 1281 - Karma: 10
That's exactly right man the political spectrum is a cricle not a line. it's niave to believe that you can take a society from a 'democracy' to anarchy. It won't work. People won't except it and it will fail. capitalism isn't altogether bad. It's uncontrolled capitalism that is shitty. Thats waht's going on right now in places like South Africa and even (although on a smaller scale) North America. Ultimatly Capitalism creats the rich and the poor, ie the haves and the have nots. Poverty, therefore, inevitably exists within all systems of social equality. In order to create complete equality some people would say that communism is the answer. However, there is far too much room for corruption and totalitarianism as illustrated throughout history. Democratic Socialism is the answer, this eliminates the high upper class and the low lower class, it's not quite a classless society but close. Scandanavian Countries are living proof.
Apr 30 2002 9:56PM
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Diabhal
Posts: 1003 - Karma: 10
I know a 'leftist anarchist' who believes that the Nazis were in the right during the war. He really creeps me out. But according to human nature anarchism CANNOT WORK and could possibly destroy humanity. I'm not being an extremist, but i doubt under anarchism that we would be able to develope enough to get resources from other sources besides earth, i.e. the moon. I know it sounds like science fiction but humanity will not survive if it can't developep fast enough. Their will be simply put, not enough resources left to sustain us. Also i don't believe anarchism will work because their will always be someone who will wan't more power. It's human nature. In my own personal belief Communism or socialism is a much more viable choice.
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Apr 30 2002 9:59PM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
Hmmm, all good points.

But, I belive that Anarchy would actually work. hat did we do 7,000 years ago? What do smll tribes on small islands do today? They live with out a governing body to keep them all in awe. The community replaces the justice system.

But, populations are much bigger today, and also much bigger in cities than on small ''uncivilized' islands in the middle of some ocean. So maybe we are doomed to be controlled by democracy. The only problem, however, with a true democracy (which is impossible, but anyways...) is that the sheep, err, ah, make that people, control that goverment.

Thank for for reading this uncomprensible rant.
-malcontent anti-corporate buddist leftist anarchist taoist.

Adbusters
May 1 2002 8:50AM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
Hmmm, all good points.

But, I belive that Anarchy would actually work. hat did we do 7,000 years ago? What do smll tribes on small islands do today? They live with out a governing body to keep them all in awe. The community replaces the justice system.

But, populations are much bigger today, and also much bigger in cities than on small ''uncivilized' islands in the middle of some ocean. So maybe we are doomed to be controlled by democracy. The only problem, however, with a true democracy (which is impossible, but anyways...) is that the sheep, err, ah, make that people, control that goverment.

Thank for for reading this uncomprensible rant.
-malcontent anti-corporate buddist leftist anarchist taoist.

Adbusters
May 1 2002 8:51AM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
sorry.
-malcontent anti-corporate buddist leftist anarchist taoist.

Adbusters
May 1 2002 8:51AM
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coz
Posts: 1754 - Karma: 11
so u say that the sheep, aka people control the gov't.. and this is bad?? who would u want controlling gov't? corporations? the military? i'm pretty sure that the only possible way to have a democracy is by having the citizens of said gov't in control over it.
May 1 2002 9:46AM
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FreshCoast
Posts: 5602 - Karma: 34
I think anarchy would work if it was put in place before man knew of organized government. People would have the respect needed for anarchy to work. These days though it would fail so quickly. Society is so corrupt! I mean look at Enron. Also people are crazy these days and would turn the country into a trash dump. there would be riotiong and mass violence. It is too late for anarchy in our world today!
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Hey sweet thang, my I offer you a fish sandwich?
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The Ladies Man
May 1 2002 10:59AM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
Well, sweetcoz, what I meant to say is that people are easily manipulated as a crowd. Think about the average North American. Materialists. While they may WANT to live in a society that caters to their every need, it masy not be a good thing in general for the world. North America is a case of a whole country of haves, trying to have even more. The GDP per person in the USA is $36,000. In Afganistan it's $800. And America attacks Afganistan to preserve the 'American Way of Life'? That's dangerous. More later.
-malcontent anti-corporate buddist leftist anarchist taoist.

Adbusters
May 1 2002 12:18PM
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fakiedropdude
Posts: 1108 - Karma: 1
well anarchists(generally speaking) believe that all the problems we have in society are an effect of the system we have.

if people wer free to make their own little societies with their own rules everything would be alright and so on.

2 years agi i was in israel on a KIBBUTZ. the Kibbutz is a system based on anarchistic principles. a collective where everyone shares equally.
May 1 2002 4:34PM
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c_lo
Posts: 1281 - Karma: 10
Perhaps this is alittle bit too abstract for you sweetcotz. See people are very impressionable. The united states is a perfect example. The government has the majority of the population believing that racial equality is no longer an issue. The average income for African americans is 12 000 lower than that of whites, but you go up to most people on the street and they think its gone. Society as a whole will believe what the government tells them, that's why democracy doesn't always work
May 1 2002 4:55PM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
Yep, and let's not forget the corporations, and America's love of consumism. Unresponsible spending may fix an economy, but it doesn't create the kind of world I'd want to live in.

So do we change things in our goverments, create new ones, or abondon them? And could we expect many people to care?

I'll think I'll make a poll.


Need a vacation? No.
May 1 2002 5:29PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
The POINT behind anarchy in itself is not ridiculous. However, an anarchist society will never occur due to morals, and just overall evil-ness of modern-age society.
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May 1 2002 5:42PM
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g-dubs
Posts: 873 - Karma: 11
Well Steve, I think I might agree, but just to pull out a Liberatarian concpet real quickly. Some people believe that people are evil as a result of the coersion of their society, namely the coersion of laws and government. The point of a law is to coerce someone in to doing something i.e. you can't kill because we say it is wrong. But in a society where the morality of each person and of society in general has recognized killing as wrong, killing won't occur because the person recognizes and individually acknowledges it as wrong rather than having a government tell them it is wrong. This thing kind of goes hand in hand with the fact that government is simply counter-productive.

As for this whole the ideological political spectrum is a circle not a line thing. I have heard an awful lot about this lately and I basically think it is bullshit. You are taking two people, say for example Hitler and Stalin, and saying they held political views right next to each other on the spectrum because they were similar in their leadership tactics of opprssion and murder. But they were derived from completely opposite ideologies. This is like saying some communists are unjust rulers, and some Fascists are unjust rulers, so communists are fascists. Just because somebody from one ideology may do the same thing as a person following a different ideology they aren't the same ideologies.

'There are only two powers in the world...the sword of the oppressor and the spirit of the oppressed. In the long run, the sword is always defeated by the spirit.'
May 1 2002 11:01PM
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Gdawg3
Posts: 1956 - Karma: 10
People are innately evil, our human instincts cause this. Leaving large populations with lots of gene pool diversity to their own devices is insantiy. There needs to be a herder for the sheep, but I haven't seen a good one yet. Maybe some day.

'Victory? We're French, we don't even have a word for it.'

Beer is my copilot.
May 1 2002 11:08PM
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coz
Posts: 1754 - Karma: 11
i'd say it's less a matter of impressionism and more a matter of ignorance. a story goes of out the news for a while and people just think it's solved. your example was affirmative action, do u think that the citizens of the us actually think that it's solved? no, they know that everybody isn't equal just because of a few years of attempts to hire visible minorities, but they simply ignore it because it's no longer shoved in their faces every day.

one last question - tak, u say that gov't is bad, u say that spending is bad, what would u like to do?? live in the middle of the congo left to be eaten by lions? your whole theory and argument just reek of self interest. u want to have a perfect gov't; if any at all, u want people to spend responsibilty, but not too conservatively so as to keep the quality of living up. as far as i know, there's no such thing as utopia. and even if there were, it would become corrupt on day 2 of existence.
May 2 2002 12:56AM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
Hmmmm, well, I just figured that I'd give philosophy one last chance before becoming a taoist. I've come to this concustion= world sucks, people mean.

So, sweetcoz, you don't like the idea of demystifing Leftist-Anarchism? I won't go very far in flaming you, becease to begin would be pointless, but I'm hurt.

Need a vacation? No.
May 2 2002 9:34AM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
Uh, sweetcoz, I just realized I didn't say those things. Play fair man, fighting won't get us anywhere. What this thread is all about is freedom from the western brain-washing that covers our public spaces. Most people are materialists, and see the goverment as a protector of property; their freedom to consume. The war on ''Terrorism'' sickens be. To see inocent Afghans pour out of their country, leave their homes and villages for fear of American bombs, is, disturbing. And no, this is not me being brain-washed by Adbusters. Since the War on 'Terrorism'' began, and Afghans, the poorest people in the world, became the enemy of the the richest, most unstable, greedy country in the world, I have been against it. I only hope that people will be able to see though the shallow promises of coporate America (and Canada) and ''The American Way of Life.'' SOme, who share my views my prays for these people. I, being a taoist and buddist, will not pray, but rather sit in quite meditation, pondering how to show people a way better than materialism. Peace, and cheers.

Need a vacation? No.
May 2 2002 9:49AM
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coz
Posts: 1754 - Karma: 11
well, if u didn't say those things, i'm sorry for assuming that the whole point of your argument was to say that western government and policy is wrong. i'm sorry to wake you from your idealist sleep, but the middle east hasn't just erupted in war because of the events of the past 6 months. they've been in turmoil ever since the thought of hording mass amounts of oil dawned on some right winger who knows how long ago. complaining about how we're better off than the middle east won't do anything, and abolishing gov't won't do anything either. what do u think one of the main reasons for the problems in the middle east is? unstable gov't. so in turn, should we adopt a system of anarchy? it hasn't seemed to fair very well for the people of afghanistan, and look at how much less they have to organize and control than that of the united states. democracy is the only way that we will be able to live.. just accept it.
May 2 2002 12:20PM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
Wha?

Dude, isn't that what I was saying? Whatever.

Point is, America's consumer culture as it is today = bad. Labeling this the ''American Way of Life'' = bad. Bombing people to ''protect'' it = bad. Fighting ''terrorism'' = simple bloodlustful revenge for unpatient Americans (Westerners in general actually). Later, peace.

Need a vacation? No.
May 2 2002 9:00PM
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funkymonk
Posts: 206 - Karma: 5
yeah, i was talkin to my friend who believes in anarchism...he says that in an anarchistic society, armed groups would rise up to enforce peace, because he realizes that people and human nature sucks. I immediately thought about the fact that this would defeat the principle of anarchism, in that some people are raised above others.... i dunno though


i'm just tired



dude, one time, I snorted ketchup off of a pizza. that sucked.


Oh yeah, republicans suck, you right winged conservative bastards, have fun burning in hell!!!!
May 2 2002 9:04PM
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coz
Posts: 1754 - Karma: 11
to tell u the truth, i've got no clue what i'm arguing about either. all i know is that i like to argue, and this started out as something that i had a point against.. whatever.

what i can tell u is that in my opinion, the western world would only be able to run as we know it using a democratic system of gov't.
May 2 2002 9:19PM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
...haha, totally dude.

Anywayys, I think I figured it out. Leftist-Anarchism may be an oyxmoron, and it may be utopian, but, like the system we have here in Canada right no, its balanced. Capitalist-Anarchism is right + right = far right (facist). Leftist-Anarchism is left + right = balanced. The system we have in Canada right now is set up, so that an offical opposition has a certain amount of power, which is determined by the people. It's quite good, but, malcontents like myself like to stir shit up, so lets have socialism with the goverment (Animal Farm without Napolean, nowball, and Swealer). Eh?

Need a vacation? No.
May 3 2002 8:45AM
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coz
Posts: 1754 - Karma: 11
sounds good. i personally like the system that we've got in canada. definitely better than pure capitalism.
May 3 2002 10:04AM
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TAK
Posts: 5007 - Karma: 14
So Leftist-Anarchism is rational after all? And Capitalist-Anarchists, often respected for their rational thinking, are actualy (unknowly) voutching for a form of facism. Interesting. It turns out that Leftist-Anarchism isn't actually a pro-onetyoeofgoverment, but rather its similar to pro-democracy in its pursuit of what would be a balanced system.

But, we're not going to chande the world are we? Proly not. But, maybe if there's a local problem, we can apply these ideals to help solve the problem in an economicly and morally good way.

Need a vacation? No.
May 3 2002 10:23AM
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