Land of the Free?

it's the land of the free for people who don't break the law. you break those laws, and you lose your rights and freedom.

you play with fire, your going to get burned.

Freedom isnt free man...Its a hefty fuckin fee!!!! And apparently all those dudes in prison didnt pay the fee so not they dont get to enjoy freedom.

ha thats nice of us.

The majority of people incarcerated are on manditory drug charges. There is a massive overcrowding of prisons.

Possibly it's the case that the laws are over-restrictive, infringing on individual's rights in the first place.

Don't break the law, don't go to jail. It's really a pretty simple concept. America is the land of the free because anyone from anywhere has the choice and the FREEDOM to do whatever they want with their life. That could be getting thrown into jail or starting their own business from scratch and becoming a millionare. The choice is out there for everyone to make, they just need to make the right choice. And besides, without laws and those who enforce them, you cannot have a productive, civilized, and yes, free society.

I don't know. You might think drug policies infringe on your rights but the majority of people don't. The people in prison know why they're there and always (except for the few not guilty prisoners) could have made a different choice so they wouldn't end up in jail.

xactly

With that sort of logic the Taliban could also adopt the phrase land of the free --the women have a choice of either covering themselves up or being decapitated, burnt or stoned but free choice right?

Dude, thats not what I said and you know it. Any person from any background has the chance to make any choice about how to spend there lives. Unfortunately when you give that power to some people they turn out to do bad things or lead unproductive lives, but for the most part you can't blame the government for that because those individuals made the choice for themselves. There is an upside and a down side to many of the values we hold high in America such as freedom of speech.

Maybe that's not what you meant but it is what you said.  I think if you look at the population filling the prisons in our country a lot of the charges that are putting them there are bullshit paternalistic laws which you'd agree don’t equate to freedom.


I promise you there are plenty of other countries out there that laugh at us for our naivety in believing we're the "most free" country in the world-- it's hard to argue that we're the most free when we have the most imprisoned.

I bet you many of the people in prison didn't do anything "bad" morally speaking, and aren’t necessarily living unproductive lives, it just happens to be the fact that America has become so afraid of everyone else that we've got to lock every 1 in 100 up.

The thing that is really bothersome is over 1 million of the inmates are charged on NON-violent offences, whereas more and more violent offenders are being released, being put back on the streets, just so the prisons can have more room.



Look at habeas corpus, look at the movement for retrograde immunity for telecom companies, the patriot act... do you still think we've as much freedom as you seem to think we do?

Dude, I'm not gonna have this discussion. If you want to read everyhting in my post and actually put some effort into trying to comprehend what I am saying and where I am coming from then we can talk. But you are posting and saying things that don't have anythig to do with the points that I am trying to make. Oh and btw go to any other country and see if you like it more than the US.

I have and i did.

well put

Ok well then stop hating on America and go back there.

Very good and insightful post.

It´s nice to hear that there is someone who has not been fooled by all the crap about USA beeing the land of the free etc.

Don´t get me wrong, I really like a lot of things about the US. But there is a lot of problems to be solved and claiming that you are "the land of the free" and "the best country in the world" is just hilarious. Realize that your country is not that good and start dealing with your issues and one day maybe you will be.

great comeback dude, All of a sudden being critical of your government is unpatriotic and i should leave the country right?

There never were any famous Americans who stood up to a government they thought was wrong to create one that was for the people by the people.

Before I label you as this or that -- What does it mean to you to be patriotic?

what country did you visit for 2 days with a tourists' attitude that you decided you liked better than america?

I spent  6 months in australia and 2 weeks workign on an organic farm in NZ... i'm pretty sure i didn't have a tourist attitude, even when i went to Fiji.   I go places to listen to the stories the people have to tell, to join a part of their family and to apreciate the life they live.  

Great job on the assumption though.

Ok then you've simply proven you're oblivious or maybe youre perceptive, you just cant draw connections? After spending 6 months in australia you like their government more than ours? I can guarantee you if you were a native of australia, you would like the american government better. Also i can guarantee you, being asian and all, the people in fiji patronized you like none other. Its what asian countries do. We pretend to embrace white people but really were pompous pricks.

Actually no, if you show respect you get repsect. I know the facade the put on for white people, but when you actually spend time with them and tell them you know the white guy usually thinks he knows best but that you actually understand there is plenty of wisdom to be found in everyone you actually get a pretty legit response.  You didn't experiance what i did so there is no way you can tell me wheather or not the people i met were pretending to like me or not.  I'll tell you i'm pretty confident that it's not the case. 

Fiji was the most touristy i got but i rejected being the tourist pretty hard. Even if you're with a tourist group, it's easy to break away from the group and get to know the people and the country around  you.

I actually found more of an attraction to NZ than Australia, but thats aside the point.  What i found was a critical lens to look through in regards to examining the place i live. There are things in my country that i'm not happy with, there are things in other countries that i'd love to see us adopt. We're too caught up on the notion of "USA FTW !!!!11"  When we really should acknowledge other people may have a better way to do things, and that It's alright for us to change.  .


It's more than just governmental things though. Government policies can change rather easily when compaired to changing a whole nations "way of life" so to speak. You'll be hard-pressed to find a more layed back view on life than that of a kiwi. It'll be difficult for you to find someone in the US who is as happy as many of the people i've met on Fiij.  I'm sure plenty of people on NS think how shitty living in the 3rd world is -- (and sure it is frustrating when you want to get "official" shit done, there was one case where the fijians were tar sealing a road, been working on it for 5 years, going to take another 5 to finish) but the general population is just so happy with the day to day life-- especaily those away from the city, away from the encroachment of the 1st world. (probably because there is a huge lack of material objects and a real sense of community/family.)

Ok first off, I'm not tryin to make a come back, I'm just sayin, if your stoked on another country go there, makes sense to me. Same concept as if you dislike one ski hill, move to another. Also I don't want this to turn into an arguement with both of us senselessly bashing the other like all the other politically related threads on NS, cus I for one can't stand that shit. We both obviously disagree, but I would just like to set the bar right now to say lets both keep it respectful, as in debate not arguement of screaming death. Also since we are having this discussion, lets both honestly try to look at one anothers viewpoints and see if we can find anything we like.

Now, as for your previous post, there is nothing unpatriotic about disagreeing with your government as long as you disagree because you want to improve the current state of how your country is being run, and I'm fine with that. In fact I can see that as being patriotic because you want to honestly help the country by having the government start doing some things differently. What I think could be defined as unpatriotic would be something along the lines of "screw this country, i hate everything it stands for, i don't care if the government changes it will still suck and I hate it", and that, as far as I can see, is far from what you are saying. In fact my interpretation of your views is that while you greatly disagree with some of the things being done in the country, you still like the country itself and you would like to see improvements.

As for patriotism, at least in the case of America and with the viewpoint of an American (I obiously can't have any other viewpoint), I would say patriotism is caring about and for one's country. Certainly you are not going to agree with everything, or most people don't, but you believe strongly in a democratic government that gives the citizens the power to have influence over the choices the government makes as well as the power and freedom to make their own choices. I think one would also believe in other things embedded in the roots of the country such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, or the right for everyone of the age 18 or older to vote. At the end of the day, you love your country and you are proud to live there, even if you do think some things need to be done differently.

Yea dude, I will agree with you there. And i think in many cases of someone being particularly happy or unhappy with life, I think that depends more on the culture than on the things the government does or the laws they enforce, at least in a democracy. For example, you look at people who have lots of money but aren't happy. That may very well be (in some cases, not all) because the culture and mainstream of America constantly portrays and puts out the message of materialism and that you can't be happy unless you make a certain amount of money, drive a certain car, live in a certain sized house, and drink a certain beer. Now obviously, being rich and owning lots of cool stuff is not the secret to being happy (though sometimes the two do coincide), but the culture doesn't say that. I think if you want to be happy you need to do what you love and pursue your passion(s) in life. But that is not what the culture and the media tells us. None of these things that are thrown US citizens everyday, are there because of the government. Unfortunatly that is the culture whether you disagree with it or not, and because our government has given us the right to free speech, the culture will be like that until the majority of the society begins to reject that message.

Dude i feel the respect, i think i've posted enough long-winded posts for today, so i'll give it a rest for now. But i think you can understand the dillema i face-- by wanting to leave and go to another country i face being unpatriotic, if i stay i'll be unhappy with the way the future looks like it'll play out. I can't chage the world i can only change myself, maybe i'll just have to find allegience to another country.

It's wierd, one thing america has that most other countries do not is a strong sense of patriotism. Our self-celebration is a pretty unique thing in this world and i think thats why we get so much hate.  II think we've got make sure that if we're going to be so self-celebrating that we actually have good reasons to do so, (look out now i'm starting to sound like Michelle Obama not being proud of my country -- jokes) but i'm not against the american patriotism celebration of our who we are, i just don't want to celebrate who we are unless we regain the moral high ground we were on before we entered WWII.

Hahaha! No. Being a native of Australia myself, I can safely say that our government is far superior to yours in areas that I personally consider (take note of this) to be important. What a stupid thing to claim, I know you were trying to make a point, however I'd reccomend you stop posting with your guarantees and start posting with a little more insight. This guarantee is going in my sig...

Someone please bring back the golden wheelchair, you've definately earned it.

could you expound on this?     

Unfortunately I can't go into great detail at the moment, however I would argue that our public healthcare system is more effective than yours. I often forget though that our population is significantly smaller than yours, and with greater populations comes greater issues.

ok thats cool, if you ever get the time, i really truly, would like to know what you like and dislike about your country's government...

but like you said, we are a different countries, so in some respects it would be like comparing apples and oranges..

i find that sentance misleading...you mean like compairing fruit to fruit?

america is still young and stupid, especially with lawmaking

cant you read between the lines?   
  we both have some aspects of our countries that are the same, but at the same time we are different.

You loose your freedom if you do things that take away the freedom of others.  That being said there are definatly some things that can get you in prison that I don't think should.  Selling weed?  Who's that hurting, and don't give me shit like it's hurting the kids they sell it to, those kids have the choice to buy it

yes they should go to prison because marijuana kills!
just watch this video!
http://http://youtube.com/watch?v=FRfmi2NO_yg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FRfmi2NO_yg

I think it's just stupid to say compairing country to country is like compairing apples and oranges, as if to say in some aspects they compair, and in some aspects they do not, when you are just compairing them.

"The usa has  a large population", "Australia has a small population",  "oh you can't compair that, that's like apples and oranges"