Israel

hahaha so true

why would you bump a 5 year old thread...... fuck

It's a valid argument. I don't really understand what the US has to gain in the region.

I have a very small sliver of hope that within my lifetime Israel will realize that a 2-state solution would be beneficial for their long term stability and safety. They are going to accomplish nothing by continuing to build settlements in Gaza and the West Bank and economically crippling them as well.

The US support of Israel is a hold over of Cold War era politics and practically nothing else. The US originally support Sadat and Egypt because they wanted access to the Suez Canal and the Soviet Union was actually a Israeli supporter. But then, Sadat went all communist and shit (at least the US gov't believed so) and nationalized the running of the Suez Canal and kicked out the UN and Brits who were guarding it. At this point, the US and Soviets basically traded allies/buyers of their weapons and used Israel (US) and then Syria, Egypt, Palestinians (Soviets) to have a little bitch fest with each other.

No, it wouldn't.

The 2005 Israeli withdrawal from Gaza has been a disaster. The Arab-Egyptians in Gaza (I won't call them "Palestinians") have proven over and over again that they are completely unable to govern themselves responsibly. The West Bank is not much different.

Israel fucked up when they gave the Sinai back to Egypt. Part of the deal should have been the dissolution of Gaza as an Arab territory, and that Egypt be forced to take all the inhabitants of Gaza (who are basically Egyptians themselves). Gaza would become an annexed part of Israel and the Sinai would become part of Egypt again. If they had taken the the necessary measures, instead of half-measures, they would've wiped out Hamas. Instead they caved  to international pressure from the left and allowed "Palestine" to continue.

The same goes for the West Bank, it should've become an annexed part of Israel and those that lived there should've been forced on Jordan and Syria as part of the peace-treaty after the six-day war.

If they had taken the necessary measures Palestine would no longer be an issue. Though it'll be much more difficult now (since they've put it off for far too long), they need to take these same measures if they're ever going to solve this issue.

There is no negotiating with militant Jihadists, they only understand and respect force.

Based on this I assume you are either a Jew or an Evangelical, but definitely a neocon hawk.

1) This is NS not a country.

2) A country can't be violent & if you're talking about the people, Israel has about 200.000 soldiers whereas the USA (I assume you mean the USA by "this country") has around 1.500.000. I think you know that the USA is more than happy to deploy them, also.

3) What kind of laws are you talking about? Laws are only rules made up by people who think they know how to control & limit a situation, but that does not make them morally correct in any way.

Got that palestinian statehood vote. LEGGOO

And I'll just assume that you're an idiot.



Anyone who supports these people definitely suffers from some form of mental deficiency.

i actually like the discussion going on in here. It's refreshing to see.

As much sense as that may make to us, this region doesn't tend to make much sense... Gaza and the west bank are, in the minds of the Arabs/Palestinians, theirs.... as with the rest of israel. Any dissolution of any territory that was originally given to Palestinians in 48, automatically ends up causing tons of bullshit to happen.

The issues in the region are really complex.

At some point the Palestinians need to concede that Israel has a right to exist and that they won't get all of "their" land back.

Israel needs to realize that the 1967 borders are the only reliable starting point, and stop building settlements in both the West Bank and Gaza strip. They will also need to lift the blockades and allow Gaza to freely trade. Although this may open the market for weapons that could be used against Israel keep in mind that Israel still has enough military might to blow all of Gaza away if they would so wish, any capitalist would argue that free markets lead to more peaceful nations, and if Gaza were to launch a large-scale attack it would give the Israeli neo-con hawks the cover to obliterate or officially take over the region.

I don't think what either side has done is by any means "right" but I kind of sympathize with the Gazans as they are doing the last thing they feel like they can.

I don't even think the 67 borders are a reliable starting point.

god bless these people

^ for all intents and purposes, Israel is actually a secular state. The jewish religion does not play a role in legislation as the koran does for many Arab states such as Saudia Arabia. furthermore, Palestinians in Israel are afforded the full rights of Israeli citizens. They have passports, can travel, can work in Israel, and they can and do run for political office. People tend to overlook the fact that Israel treats its Palestinians better than other Arab nations. to anyone read this post, look up how Palestinians are treated in Jordan and Egypt, two countries who vocally disavow Israel (though Egypt and Israel are tenuously allied). Egyptian and Lebanese Palestinians are relegated to refugee camps, do not have passports, are not able to work, or even leave the country for extended periods of time. Furthermore, the most religious jews, the Hasids, do not participate in military service in Israel. The hasids are the settlement builders, and so the IDF is forced to protect them, even though the Hasids dont have to fight themselves. This pisses off people. Israel is not a monolithic block. While it has a ways to go, the extremists are just that - extremists. It's like judging the USA by simply looking at the actions of Santorum, Rick Perry, or even pat robertson. simply unfair and untrue.

this is what i was thinking as well....

relevant:

Palestine was voted in favour of becoming a recognized state at the UN.


only 9 countries voted against:

US
Israel
Canada (I'm disappointed)
and a few countries that don't really matter


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/11/29/un-palestinian-state-israel-vote.html

It's not a theological nation, but just throwing the Star of David on the flag is enough to piss off any country with the Crescent moon on it's own...

Very true. just to put it into perspective though the US, though obviously a secular state, is 'one nation under god' and has various religious references in the declaration of independence, pledge of allegiance, on currency etc. It's more or less the same with Israel, though all Jews are granted a right of return. But yes, I do agree with you it does stir the pot. However I think the historical argument is best avoided as Israel has existed for over 70 years now, meaning that most Israelis are now 2nd and 3rd generation, so it is their home, regardless of how much the British mandate fucked up the creation of their state. I am second generation canadian, if there is ever ethnic turmoil in Canada does that mean I have less of a claim on my home country than those who are 4th or 5th generation? I certainly hope not. As a jew, and you can probably see where I am coming from, it makes me extremely upset when people develop viewpoints about Israel that are based much less in fact than simple ignorance and bias. I do not unequivocally support Israel's actions, but likewise do not always support the governments of Canada and the States. This may sound like victimization, and who knows it probably is, but a lot of criticism of the Israeli government comes from those who equate the actions of the Israeli government to be synonymous with those of the Jewish people. It is complete hypocrisy to cheer the death of Al-Qaeda terrorists killed by the Obama administration, while criticize Israel for human rights abuses when they go after Hamas, who is funded completely, and is somewhat of a patsy to, Iran. Yes, the situation in Gaza is completely fucked up, and yes a two state solution is needed. However, no two state solution will ever be reached as long as Hamas maintains an oppressive, and largely corrupt hold over the people of Gaza. is a state run by Hamas a state that people really want to see?

reminder that there are jewish arabs

But none of those gentlemen are the head of state or seriously relevant in policy discussions. Bibi and the Likud party are pro-settlement don't believe in a 2-state solution.

this too