Presidential Address on the War

yeah they voted for the best person, but that doesnt mean they know whats best for the country.

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

keep digging....

DL.CCR.PPP.J-CREW

Like a virgin on prom night.

Ottawa

You are looking at to small of a scope.

You said yourself that politicians are elected to represent the people’s interests. The people don’t always know all that is going on, it is the elected officials job to sort that out. Policies that they come up with are voted upon as well. Its not anything goes for the big wigs.

If the people trust the decision makers that THEY choose, then they should trust their decisions. If not, it undermines the whole system. Government officials are REPRESENTATIVES of the people. That’s the only way the system can work.

If something has a greater good down the road, then it is in the best interests. Long run and short run. This is the problem with a lot of people; they are too impatient for results. People want everything NOW. Though the government has been guilty of shortsightedness themselves.

But that’s not saying that they are always right, the government has been wrong before. But a common political trap is that volume equals right.

I believe you are thinking inside a small box skibum_.

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Q: How many NS.com members does it take to answer a simple question?

A: 10. One to answer, three to say 'How fucking stupid are you?', three to say 'This has already been asked a thousand times', and three to say 'Who the fuck cares anyway?'

-kamikaze

**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

President Bush has Brick Tamlin on his side. How can he lose?

Where did you get your clothes, the toilet store?

D-Railed Productions

momentum session 2

skier8990 aim. talk to me if you like

by thinking inside a small box, you are saying I am short sighted, right? In saying that, you are missing my point. I stated a tyrannical government is good. The problem is the present administration is adopting tyrannical policies while hiding behind the guise of a democracy. They lie, decieve, and cheat. How can the people elect the proper official when they don't even know what is truly going on? The government knows the people wouldn't be content with the truth and they'd get voted out of office, so they lie. This is true with many things other than the war; government spending being a big one.

DL.CCR.PPP.J-CREW

Like a virgin on prom night.

Ottawa

I know what you said. You said yourself it’s not possible to have a perfect tyrannical system and that is true. The United States government is NOT a perfect democracy, at least by Locke’s definition. It always has been that way. The founders of the nation realized that for the system to work effectively, it has to representative. The representatives are chosen by the people, which is an element of democracy. Representatives can make exclusive decisions that the people cannot, this is not an element of democracy. This system is so effective because it has a combination of elements. Corruption and greed occurs, but it is imposable for it to poison the entire system.

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Q: How many NS.com members does it take to answer a simple question?

A: 10. One to answer, three to say 'How fucking stupid are you?', three to say 'This has already been asked a thousand times', and three to say 'Who the fuck cares anyway?'

-kamikaze

**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

^that last post sounds like my 9th grade social studies teacher. are you seriously debating lockean philosophy?

Quinny you make some very good points and i appreciate your honesty but we have to be real here. 2 years ago you would never say the things you are saying now about Iraq. Up until recently republicans still argued we were in Iraq "to fight terrorism and take out a horrible dictator; to spread the american democracy" but here you are today admiting that we went there for monetary gains as well as helping people? maybe you wont say it word for word but basically you agree with this is a war for oil
so why the change? why is it now allowable to admit we went there more for reasons of money. maybe because all the evidence surfaced that our information was totally wrong before going into Iraq? i dont really know, enlighten me, maybe i misunderstood you. not trying to be an ass, ask just asking

and skibum im with you on this one, the lies and deceit should not be permitted by any means. and bermbuster, just shut up and let quinny debate for you, you sound like a moron


I seek the means... to fight injustice. To turn fear... against those who prey on the fearful.

^"maybe you wont say it word for word but basically you agree with this is a war for oil
so why the change?"

why the change? even i can see that oil is a vauluble reasource. like we said before, its a plus either way, you can have going to help people as the main objective and the oil as being a plus, or you can have it the other way around. either way its still the same thing. I dont see how democrats see this as terribly bad, it accually worked out pretty good for us. captured a powerful and unreasonable dictator, cleaned up a nation and started to turn it around, now i have no idea whats going on with the oil but whatever, i'm sure we are going to get something out of this war that falls into the oil category, haha. i know there were many deaths, but this is war, was it neccicary(sp)? it doesnt seem like it, but the government knows what they are doing, and apparently it was the smart thing to do. idk, the future will tell...

go ahead rip me apart haha, o how i love these political threads.

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

"you can have going to help people as the main objective and the oil as being a plus, or you can have it the other way around. either way its still the same thing."

no it's not, believe it or not there is a difference between primary and secondary.

"captured a powerful and unreasonable dictator, cleaned up a nation and started to turn it around,"

i really wouldn't say "cleaned up" because right now iraq is much less stable than it had been under hussein. also the war isnt exactly working out great for us, we're trillions of dollars in debt, and i doubt our foreign relations have ever been worse.

TO THE COMMONS!!!! but not up thos estairs......theyre forbidden fruit. and dont even think of landing a 737 in there on ms blums watch, she'll kick that shit out especially if it doesnt throw away its yogurtt
- g-punit*steezer

While his speech seemed to be better written than previous speeches, it seemed to simply twist the same rhetoric into a new form to fit the current situation.

Overall, i still disagree with the ever-changing mission in iraq. while he offered answers to many questions about the war, most of these seemed to be a little questionable and qutie possibly invalid. for example, the comment about afghanistan being a high point in the history of the world is a spit in the face of every citizen of iraq. anyone who is vaguely familiar with the state of affairs in afghanistan knows that the country is war torn, poverty stricken, and suffering. we invaded, destroyed, then skipped over to iraq. afghanistan is now one of the nations with the LOWEST HMI. why? because we left it in shambles and no one noticed. now bush states that we liberated them and changed their lives and everyone accepts it as fact.

Whatever happened to us being liberators of the world? i mean if we really cared about the impovershed peoples of the world we would have invaded Sudan to stop the current GENOCIDE which is occuring there. ( http://www.darfurgenocide.org) people toot their horns about how brave, just, and ethical our government is for looking out for the horribly opressed iraqis when whats happening right now in sudan is mulitiudes worse than what HAPPENED to the iraqi people more than a decade ago. perhaps we should reassess our postion in the world? maybe we should be honest with ourselves and realize that we are not liberators at all, instead we are simply out to make a quick buck at the expence of thousands of lives


after searching some of the blogs i found some an interesting piece from a journalist in iraq, here it is:

News flash: Iraq is a disaster. I've been back one day, and the airport road was the worst I've ever seen it. We had to go around a fire-fight between mujahideen and Americans while Iraqi forces sat in the shade of date palms on the side of the road, their rifles resting across their laps. My driver pointed to a group of men in a white pickup next to me. “They are mujahideen,� he said. “They are watching the Americans.� Indeed, they were, and so intently that they paid no attention to me in the car next to them. We detoured around two possible car bombs that had been cordoned off while Iraqis cautiously approached.

Rumsfeld's assessment of “good progress� on the constitution is not accurate, as the committee to draw it up still hasn't completely agreed on how the Sunnis will take part.

When I was in Ramadi, I found the morale to be lower than expected. It wasn't rock-bottom among the Marines of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, but it wasn't great. Most of the ones I talked to weren't confident they were doing anything worthwhile, and were instead focused on getting home alive. If a few Iraqis had to die to make that happen, well, war is hell.

I'm not sure who's winning this war, the Americans or the insurgents. But I know who is losing it: the Iraqi people. Those bumps in the road are their graves.

Posted by Christopher (Allbritton) at June 28, 2005 07:53 PM
http://www.back-to-iraq.com/archives/000879.php



going beyond is as bad as falling short, especially on 70 foot tables.

Viper you are making the mistake by assuming you know what I thought and said two years ago. You have no idea what I said. You would have no way of knowing, seeing as I have only been posting here for less than a year. You just made the leap of logic that can be harmful to critical thinking.

Besides, you are wrong in any case. I knew there were economic reasons for going to war from the start. Hell, both Democrats and Republicans thought so too (pre 2002). Didn’t I say before that France and Germany didn’t want us there because of economic interests? I can tell you they weren’t there for the carpets and brass lamps. They had their eyes there for a similar reason that the US did. You are damn right that the government was in it for monetary gain as well as helping people. You need more than one reason for going to war or it won’t pass the house. The writing is, and has been, on the wall this whole time. If any believe otherwise I dare to call them naive. I am here today saying the same thing I did before the war ever happened.

Also keep in mind that, regardless of which administration, they will always put the best face on everything. The terrorism and WMD was the noblest sounding of those reasons.

When a nation is looking at the possibility of war, they will examine all possible gains and losses. As I said before, the government is not going throw around that kind of muscle and money without decent cause.

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Q: How many NS.com members does it take to answer a simple question?

A: 10. One to answer, three to say 'How fucking stupid are you?', three to say 'This has already been asked a thousand times', and three to say 'Who the fuck cares anyway?'

-kamikaze

**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

This is to all those little PUSSIES supporting the war in Iraq or any war: I dont see anyone of you enlisted and wearing a UNIFORM, but when you are, and when your little ass is being sent halfway around the world to fight a nimwit's war, then come back here and state your opinion then.

What pisses me of the most is the way that peple speak of war, and are proud of what others are doing. ASK anyone who has experienced a war or lived through one, if they thought that it was worth it and if they would like to do it all again, because it was all so much fun.

its all a scam, the whole 911 thing had NOTHING TO DO WITH iRAQ, Its all about OIL.
doesn't everyone know that already
been in the making since the 1st gulf war, just waiting for any excuse to invade and now the DUMB americans who voted for Bush are finally waking up to the truth!

okay to that deadwing kid up there, did you even read the damn thread? and i dont even want to get started with you calling the people who voted for bush "dumb", cas i just dont have that time and its already been discussed like 50 times in different threads.

and to redbass....did you just call supporters of the war pussies? hahaha thats great, the people that would acually fight themselve's are now the pussies. see the way i see it the democrat protesters are the pussies, they wouldnt fight in the war so they dont want the war. at least thats the way i always saw it. I like how you said "I dont see anyone of you enlisted and wearing a UNIFORM, but when you are, and when your little ass is being sent halfway around the world to fight a nimwit's war, then come back here and state your opinion then." now i like this because if you didnt know, most people over there are supporters of bush. here in this IHT article it even says it, "Despite the risks, U.S. combatants in Iraq are largely supportive of Bush", now if i site that article again, "Not a single soldier interviewed - even those who were most gloomy about the war - would say that it had been a mistake to come here or that the war was the result of dissembling or miscalculation by Bush.".....hmmm now these guys dont seem to be complaining to me? it seems like the democrats are caught up in the liberal media again :-o.

oh yeah, heres the link to that article, if you want to read it http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/21/news/troops.html

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

that's odd that the article said "Not a single soldier interviewed - even those who were most gloomy about the war - would say that it had been a mistake to come here or that the war was the result of dissembling or miscalculation by Bush."

when the last paragraph says

"I'm a Democrat," said one soldier in Tikrit, a black platoon leader from Detroit. "I always vote Democrat, and I'm sure going to vote Democrat this year. We've got to get out of this mess over here, and I don't believe Bush has any idea how to do it. You say that out loud, though, you just get a bunch of people in your face."

i guess he did not say that the war was a result of a dissembling or miscalculation by bush, but it is pretty clear that he does not support. the quote was misleading.

TO THE COMMONS!!!! but not up thos estairs......theyre forbidden fruit. and dont even think of landing a 737 in there on ms blums watch, she'll kick that shit out especially if it doesnt throw away its yogurtt
- g-punit*steezer

you would call protesters who are protesting so that people don't have to die in a foreign land for something that they don't believe in pussies?? Or protestors who don't think that violence is the answer to everyone's problems?? What about the protestors who think that your government should be spending a little more time/money to solve problems in their OWN country?? Are they pussies too?? If your definition of a pussy is somebody who is fed shit and doesn't want to swallow, then enjoy eating the shit. Defending a country is one thing, and I'm sure that most of those protestors who you call pussies would take up arms just like I'm sure you would in that case. But, attacking is different.
Shouldn't taking military action against another country when it causes such a HUGE split along political lines not be questioned a little more by the button pushers?

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"When I'm horny like thirsty, She's a bottle of water."

those two quotes came from different people.

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

yeah i guess i see where your coming from with the eat shit thing, if i didnt like something i would probably try to do something about it too. but i still stand with my original response to that kid up there calling the supporters of the war pussies.

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

^that was to badfish2, i forgot to hit the quote thing.

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

What about the wealthy supporters of war, or the profiteers of war for that matter? I think a lot of them are hypocrites.

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"When I'm horny like thirsty, She's a bottle of water."

Quinny i wasnt trying to assume what you personally thought or said 2 years ago. i appologize for that. i was trying to say that republicans 2 years ago would have never claimed that the war in Iraq was for oil. even though most intelligent people knew the truth the governement still tried to cover up the desire for oil with the belief we were liberating a country.

the reason im pissed is because the governement lied to get us over there so we could supposedly help people out when our true goal was to secure our own economic stability with oil. they lied and now suddenly its ok to admit we were over there for oil cuz well were to deep into it to do anything about it. thats all im trying to say, maybe you personally didnt feel that way but most conservatives were saying that same bull shit


I seek the means... to fight injustice. To turn fear... against those who prey on the fearful.

but that doesnt make them pussies hahaha

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

now see, i get why your pissed, but i dont think being pissed is going to do anything. its pretty much over. now i think the reason they lied 2 years ago and said we are going in to help people is so that people didnt go apeshit saying that we were going over there for nothing. however, i think it was a good move on our part because of the oil, there is a lot of fucking oil over there man. economy anyone?

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

ha

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"When I'm horny like thirsty, She's a bottle of water."

That is fair enough. It is true that many did hold that WMDs were the solitary claim for the war, but not as many as you would think. The educated (I’m using that a bit loosely) tended to look past the face value of the matter. That is part of the reason people get so flustered about this subject, some people that don’t look through. Part of the reason this whole thing is so complex is because people are receiving mixed messages and information. You know as much as I do that many argue this issue with off basis information. Generalizations, misinformation, and misinterpretation are all common pitfalls (I wont even get into emotion).

I still don’t see it as lying. At the time, they (as well as others) seemed to think the original claims of WMD and terror ties where legitimate. There is a possibility that they are still legitimate if you think about it. We didn’t exactly rush into Iraq overnight. We all remember that Saddom was given many warnings for months. That’s more than enough time to move, hide, sell, or destroy suspect things. I personally don’t consider it a lie because the possibility has never been conclusively taken out of the cards. But that’s just my take on it and many do disagree with it.



Side note: bermbuster49 and Badfish2, work on solidifying your perspectives a little more. You guys are all over the place.

------------------------
Q: How many NS.com members does it take to answer a simple question?

A: 10. One to answer, three to say 'How fucking stupid are you?', three to say 'This has already been asked a thousand times', and three to say 'Who the fuck cares anyway?'

-kamikaze

**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

haah dude are you like a teacher? every post you have is like a novel, thats crazy. but yeah, dont expect my stuff to be to um...constructive, i am only in 8th grade.(i've been in the gifted program thing since kindergarten, but that doesnt mean i'm good at politics haha.)

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

sorry massa... ;)

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"When I'm horny like thirsty, She's a bottle of water."

you just contradicted yourself, Its not your oil,
Deadwing was right then.
The U.S. will go to war only if it benefits them,
they don't bother with other areas, don't listen to
the rest of the world (UN)
and you must like watching FOX NEWS
its the Texas company's that are funding the war to
steal the oil. and when you will need water you will invade Canada if we don't give it to you.
In his speech he kept on bringing up 911/ & the terrorists. homeland security. Blahhh
that is getting old





Stress will get you nowhere,

I like Norrads analogy of farting and poop & wrong decision. " Bring it on" but then what do we do





Stress will get you nowhere,

hold on was your only point in that post to say that the U.S. will only go to war if it benefits them? cas if it was...wow, dude thats the whole point, do you want our nation to go under?

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

"It is true that many did hold that WMDs were the solitary claim for the war, but not as many as you would think."
You can't possibly deny that that, and links to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, were how the war was sold to the american people and the Senate, as well as how it was presented to the rest of the world, who, as we know, didn't buy it. Was it lying? I think it was selective perception; the administration went into the war expecting to see a certain set of things, and they interpreted everything to suit that perception. Of course that doesn't explain Powell's explosion to his speechwriters about his Iraq press conference presentation being bullshit, or all the reports from CIA agents they ignored...

actually the author wrote the first quote, but the second quote was from someone he interviewed, making his previous statement severely misleading

TO THE COMMONS!!!! but not up thos estairs......theyre forbidden fruit. and dont even think of landing a 737 in there on ms blums watch, she'll kick that shit out especially if it doesnt throw away its yogurtt
- g-punit*steezer

You are trotting around ground that I have already covered. Connect the dots.

------------------------
Q: How many NS.com members does it take to answer a simple question?

A: 10. One to answer, three to say 'How fucking stupid are you?', three to say 'This has already been asked a thousand times', and three to say 'Who the fuck cares anyway?'

-kamikaze

**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

no dumbass, acually, those quotes did come from different people, the reporter, and the soldier, read the post again.

-kulpy-

gangsta raps lyrics are all the same, Someone gets shot, someones frontin, someones a wangsta, someones benchpressin, someones makin fried chicken, and the beans dont burn on the grill. You can see that shit in kentucky. Fuck the bronx, deep south bitches-scientist

quiet you^ i wasn't even attacking you. i was just saying that what you said was misleading to people who didn't read the article. yes the reporter did say that, but he obviously interviewed the person with the second quote, so therefore what he said before wasn't entirely truthful, or at least sending the wrong message.

TO THE COMMONS!!!! but not up thos estairs......theyre forbidden fruit. and dont even think of landing a 737 in there on ms blums watch, she'll kick that shit out especially if it doesnt throw away its yogurtt
- g-punit*steezer