It looks like you are using an ad blocker. That's okay. Who doesn't? But without advertising revenue, we can't keep making this site awesome. Click the link below for instructions on disabling adblock.
Welcome to the Newschoolers forums! You may read the forums as a guest, however you must be a registered member to post.
Register to become a member today!
i mean we can all agree vail is a powerhouse and has had more than a few negative impacts on skiing and particularly terrain parks but bobby katz is so much better than kiersten lynch. he actually skis lol. also, i personally like some of his passion projects like addressing climate change and when the george floyd thing was going on, the inward look at how the company shows up, etc. so im excited to hopefully see some positive changes out of him
i do wish that vail wasn’t publicly traded. once that happens, i feel like no matter who you have as ceo, there’s still gonna be changes for the value of the stock rather than the value of the product. that’s for sure one thing i like about alterra over vail.
partyandBSi mean we can all agree vail is a powerhouse and has had more than a few negative impacts on skiing and particularly terrain parks but bobby katz is so much better than kiersten lynch. he actually skis lol. also, i personally like some of his passion projects like addressing climate change and when the george floyd thing was going on, the inward look at how the company shows up, etc. so im excited to hopefully see some positive changes out of him
i do wish that vail wasn’t publicly traded. once that happens, i feel like no matter who you have as ceo, there’s still gonna be changes for the value of the stock rather than the value of the product. that’s for sure one thing i like about alterra over vail.
100%. He has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders given that it is a public company. Yet there remains no responsibility towards locals, customers, employees, and the mountains themselves.
abjectwoeHe was CEO until 2021/2022? But has been on the BOD?
Is this really anything other than optics to placate shareholders?
he was chairman of the board even. but the ceo would make the decisions and the board would back it with him being the final approver. now he should be much more involved in the actual operation (obviously at a high level. you won’t see him bumping chairs at afton alps in minnesota anytime soon lol)
partyandBSi mean we can all agree vail is a powerhouse and has had more than a few negative impacts on skiing and particularly terrain parks but bobby katz is so much better than kiersten lynch. he actually skis lol. also, i personally like some of his passion projects like addressing climate change and when the george floyd thing was going on, the inward look at how the company shows up, etc. so im excited to hopefully see some positive changes out of him
i do wish that vail wasn’t publicly traded. once that happens, i feel like no matter who you have as ceo, there’s still gonna be changes for the value of the stock rather than the value of the product. that’s for sure one thing i like about alterra over vail.
Fuck that performative bullshit who the fuck cares what some billionaire pretends to care about. If you grew up skiing one of the many places that Vail ruined you would have nothing but animosity towards that douche and everything Vail Corp.
270on420outFuck that performative bullshit who the fuck cares what some billionaire pretends to care about. If you grew up skiing one of the many places that Vail ruined you would have nothing but animosity towards that douche and everything Vail Corp.
yeah i grew up skiing breck and keystone and they were early to vail. breck definitely grew its own culture. i went to stowe for the season they were bought and holy fuck they killed every event and completely changed their marketing. i didn’t know the culture before but it seemed like a drastic change. it was rough but not near as bad as the crested butte or park city ones.
alterra is specifically aiming to not do what vail does when they acquire mountains. they want each resort to be its own identity and have the culture thrive with the corporate support for capital etc. still driving results of course but it’s a much more favorable approach for sure.
and rob is no billionaire lol. not even 4% of the way to being a billionaire. does that change the sentiment or make him one of us, eh not really.
They absolutely destroyed attitash. They were taking parts off our lifts. We also used to have a sick ass park, this season we had 5 rails and 1 jump, and it took them till late February. No hate to park crew, they’re great, but corporate wouldn’t give them a groomer or anything so they couldn’t build one
270on420outFuck that performative bullshit who the fuck cares what some billionaire pretends to care about. If you grew up skiing one of the many places that Vail ruined you would have nothing but animosity towards that douche and everything Vail Corp.
WeibussyThey absolutely destroyed attitash. They were taking parts off our lifts. We also used to have a sick ass park, this season we had 5 rails and 1 jump, and it took them till late February. No hate to park crew, they’re great, but corporate wouldn’t give them a groomer or anything so they couldn’t build one
Vail purposefully killed East coast skiing to funnel people West to spend more $$$.
It's fucking criminal.
Imagine I owned a restaurant and bought a new one and made the food awful on purpose. Vail 101.
They shit on decades of history and ruined peoples lives so they could extract as much wealth as possible out of the sport.
i pulled a fast one on vail a couple years ago. bought MTN stock, Vail did stock buybacks, sold my shares and made enough to buy a pass. effectively, they paid me to ski. suckaaaas
Sounds like he knew a downturn was coming and stepped aside and let somebody else take the heat for the post COVID downturn and some of the shitty decisions that were made when they bought out peak and fucked over all those resorts. Now he is back.
partyandBSyeah i grew up skiing breck and keystone and they were early to vail. breck definitely grew its own culture. i went to stowe for the season they were bought and holy fuck they killed every event and completely changed their marketing. i didn’t know the culture before but it seemed like a drastic change. it was rough but not near as bad as the crested butte or park city ones.
alterra is specifically aiming to not do what vail does when they acquire mountains. they want each resort to be its own identity and have the culture thrive with the corporate support for capital etc. still driving results of course but it’s a much more favorable approach for sure.
and rob is no billionaire lol. not even 4% of the way to being a billionaire. does that change the sentiment or make him one of us, eh not really.
Vail really loves fucking over the east coast. The obvious elephant in the room right now is the future of the halfpipe at Okemo, which I really hope they keep it as there still is a market for that kind of crowd. The issue itself made its way outside of the Okemo community and it is definitely making people look at Vail Management differently.
Also I’ve seen the changes at Mount Snow since Vail took over and it definitely gives Disneyland vibes for how shit the riding has become. No inferno build in recent years, no Pay Your Age Day, shit’s sad to see honestly.
Now that Vail has managed to cut anything fun out of east coast skiing, people are definitely migrating to non-Vail resorts because of the culture and the build quality of parks at places like Loon, Sugarbush, and Killington (just to name a few).
sander_hThe fact that Vail thinks bringing back Katz as CEO is a positive news story shows just how disconnected they still are.
I mean Vail isn't going to admit their last CEO sucked haha when pleasing the stockholders is the only goal, everything is a positive spin.
Kirsten Lynch "stepped down" but basically she got fired because of the ski patrol strike. I think the stockholders see Rob as a more stable and trustworthy CEO and that is all this move is about.
During covid they fired each mountain's HR staff, hired 25% back and relocated them to Broomfield, and recently (like a month ago) fired everyone.
They're in the midst of a massive outsourcing effort all so they can cut costs to buy more mountains.
To do that they'll keep fucking over current employees and current mountains, buy new ones and rinse/repeat.
removing on-site hr was the single worst move VR has ever done from an employee experience standpoint in my opinion. it puts added burden on managers who are already stretched thin and it makes it hard for employees. i worked for a VR and had over 100 seasonal employees and if there was some sort of onboarding issue i had to call and be on hold for literally an hour. now they at least call you back but overall, that shit sucks. the alterra resort i was at had on-site hr and you walk in there and in less than 5 minutes your problem is solved.
the database of answers to issues is pretty sweet and there is a shift for people to be problem solvers so they aren’t just burdening hr. but that only works if you have a steady workforce. with seasonal employees rotating into the company, it’s hard to set that expectation.
i think the centralized hr is solely to satisfy the shareholders on the investment calls. it would be close to impossible for them to say actually we are going back to on-site hr. our resort wanted to even take labor budget from other departments to bring 1 or 2 hr people back and corporate shut it down.
partyandBSremoving on-site hr was the single worst move VR has ever done from an employee experience standpoint in my opinion. it puts added burden on managers who are already stretched thin and it makes it hard for employees. i worked for a VR and had over 100 seasonal employees and if there was some sort of onboarding issue i had to call and be on hold for literally an hour. now they at least call you back but overall, that shit sucks. the alterra resort i was at had on-site hr and you walk in there and in less than 5 minutes your problem is solved.
the database of answers to issues is pretty sweet and there is a shift for people to be problem solvers so they aren’t just burdening hr. but that only works if you have a steady workforce. with seasonal employees rotating into the company, it’s hard to set that expectation.
i think the centralized hr is solely to satisfy the shareholders on the investment calls. it would be close to impossible for them to say actually we are going back to on-site hr. our resort wanted to even take labor budget from other departments to bring 1 or 2 hr people back and corporate shut it down.
Moving out of Avon to Broomfield was pretty dumb looking back at it. Eventually the CO vail resort experience didn't feel like it was run by people who were mountain town locals.
During covid they fired each mountain's HR staff, hired 25% back and relocated them to Broomfield, and recently (like a month ago) fired everyone.
They're in the midst of a massive outsourcing effort all so they can cut costs to buy more mountains.
To do that they'll keep fucking over current employees and current mountains, buy new ones and rinse/repeat.
Worse for us, better for them. We all know that Vail is evil, we all know they don't care about us. Unfortunately for some people you have to ski at a Vail resort, or skiing at a Vail resort is the best option.
She got fired due to way more than the ski patrol strike. Stock has been on a nosedive for years. Most capitol has been cut for this current year. Company has not exactly been killing it financially for a bit and this year the PR nightmare didn't help. (PR in numerous lift accidents and Ski Patrol)
SkiBum.She got fired due to way more than the ski patrol strike. Stock has been on a nosedive for years. Most capitol has been cut for this current year. Company has not exactly been killing it financially for a bit and this year the PR nightmare didn't help. (PR in numerous lift accidents and Ski Patrol)
Vail still sucks. Rob still sucks.
Vail's business model is not sustainable at all, hopefully they keep their head buried in the sand and sell all of the resorts.
eheathVail's business model is not sustainable at all, hopefully they keep their head buried in the sand and sell all of the resorts.
Homeboy billionaire just bought town lift plaza and said he wants to buy the ski area from Vail next. I mean, good luck, but you never know. Napkin math and keyboard warrior typing says the sale price would be about half of Vails market value on paper.
SkiBum.Homeboy billionaire just bought town lift plaza and said he wants to buy the ski area from Vail next. I mean, good luck, but you never know. Napkin math and keyboard warrior typing says the sale price would be about half of Vails market value on paper.
Yeah PC will likely be one of the last resorts they sell.
That dude buying PC would be interesting, could have a pretty negative impact. I would imagine the pass price would skyrocket and if anything, it would turn into DV 2, which isnt that bad, but PC currently is a pretty fun place to ski and has a dope park, etc. Maybe they'd keep the park because of the olympics, but a billionaire buying a ski resort might not really be an "improvement"
eheathYeah PC will likely be one of the last resorts they sell.
That dude buying PC would be interesting, could have a pretty negative impact. I would imagine the pass price would skyrocket and if anything, it would turn into DV 2, which isnt that bad, but PC currently is a pretty fun place to ski and has a dope park, etc. Maybe they'd keep the park because of the olympics, but a billionaire buying a ski resort might not really be an "improvement"
Powder Mountain 2.0? Mr. Netflix has his hands all up in that and does not seem to be making any friends.
eheathYeah PC will likely be one of the last resorts they sell.
That dude buying PC would be interesting, could have a pretty negative impact. I would imagine the pass price would skyrocket and if anything, it would turn into DV 2, which isnt that bad, but PC currently is a pretty fun place to ski and has a dope park, etc. Maybe they'd keep the park because of the olympics, but a billionaire buying a ski resort might not really be an "improvement"
imo I'd rather pay more for a season pass at a single resort that can improve the experience vs be under the vail umbrella
thatsGimo I'd rather pay more for a season pass at a single resort that can improve the experience vs be under the vail umbrella
Well thats sort of my point, the price would increase and I don't think the experience would be "better" if Vail sold PC to a billionaire. IMO PC is in a good spot, I don't think I would change much if I were the one making the decisions.
thatsGimo I'd rather pay more for a season pass at a single resort that can improve the experience vs be under the vail umbrella
The devil's advocate argument would be that this would "gatekeep" access to mountains, but I think mega-passes (outside of Indy Pass) are a race to the bottom-line. As others have said, the Vail business model is not sustainable long-term. You can't have cheap mega-passes, maintained infrastructure, and moderate crowds.
You can choose two, and in some cases only one.
If there was no Vail/Alterra would the Epic/Ikon casual skier ski less? Yes. But their experience skiing would be better, and so would everyone else's.
eheathWell thats sort of my point, the price would increase and I don't think the experience would be "better" if Vail sold PC to a billionaire. IMO PC is in a good spot, I don't think I would change much if I were the one making the decisions.
Agree PC isn't in a bad spot, more curious on what the crossing point would be in terms of $ allocated to individual resorts from Epic Pass sales vs being an independent pass.
Vail did ~1B in rev from epic pass sales in 2024 and said it will do ~250mil in improvements in 2025. PC maybe see's 5%? (gpt #'s below based on estimated visitors).
There is an argument to be made that more $ can go to improvements, less crowds, and better employee experience for the flagship resorts to branch off vail. Will never happen but fun to think about
thatsGAgree PC isn't in a bad spot, more curious on what the crossing point would be in terms of $ allocated to individual resorts from Epic Pass sales vs being an independent pass.
Vail did ~1B in rev from epic pass sales in 2024 and said it will do ~250mil in improvements in 2025. PC maybe see's 5%? (gpt #'s below based on estimated visitors).
There is an argument to be made that more $ can go to improvements, less crowds, and better employee experience for the flagship resorts to branch off vail. Will never happen but fun to think about
That's all pretty theoretical, Vail already tried to put millions into PC with new lifts but a couple of local PC people decided they wanted to fuck with Vail and sued them about it. Vail sent the lifts to other resorts and the issues these lifts were suppose to fix are still present. I think Vail will get to those lifts eventually though.
Otherwise, PC doesnt really need "improvements" but I do understand what you are saying.
abjectwoeThe devil's advocate argument would be that this would "gatekeep" access to mountains, but I think mega-passes (outside of Indy Pass) are a race to the bottom-line. As others have said, the Vail business model is not sustainable long-term. You can't have cheap mega-passes, maintained infrastructure, and moderate crowds.
You can choose two, and in some cases only one.
If there was no Vail/Alterra would the Epic/Ikon casual skier ski less? Yes. But their experience skiing would be better, and so would everyone else's.
imo it doesn't gatekeep, just localizes it back to before. Pre-epic pass skier visits were ~5% less than they have been. There was a transition from midwest to Rocky Mountain visits when the epic pass hit. Look at the NSAA link below.
Essentially they bought midwest resorts to turn their weekend warriors into week long Rocky Mountain vacation goers. Now it's a less accessible sport cause you're either dropping 1k on a season pass or simply not skiing. Cost of even trying out skiing to decide if you like it is at all time high.
I think there's an argument that the mega pass is the ultimate gate keeper and if Vail resorts re-localized passed it could be beneficial all around.
eheathI mean Vail isn't going to admit their last CEO sucked haha when pleasing the stockholders is the only goal, everything is a positive spin.
Kirsten Lynch "stepped down" but basically she got fired because of the ski patrol strike. I think the stockholders see Rob as a more stable and trustworthy CEO and that is all this move is about.
Nothing will change unfortunately.
TBH that one VC firm that has who knows how few shares of Vail wrote a pretty decent plan to come back to the spotlight. Unfortunately it involves spending money, so therefore they won't be able to do it.
This is literally what I said when he stopped aside. He knew the good years of Massive growth were over so he presented a “sacrificial lamb”. Rob is a wall street guy. He’s finance at heart. Also, I very much believe he was still very involved with leadership decisions having sat on the board. This is all smoke and mirrors and Lynch is a pawn. But she is probably okay being a pawn with what she got paid.
TOAST.Sounds like he knew a downturn was coming and stepped aside and let somebody else take the heat for the post COVID downturn and some of the shitty decisions that were made when they bought out peak and fucked over all those resorts. Now he is back.
I read somewhere that Bobkatz' wife was sick and died early February. I'm sure that was part of why he stepped away in retrospect.
Kirsten's culture was straight toxic. I've heard rumors that it was "get in line or leave" and half her executive team left. She pushed DEI so hard it was insane. When I left the company I was appalled by how much time we spent talking about inclusivity rather than talking about issues facing our resorts. Ironically, all the DEI talk changed how I viewed my co-workers - instead of hiring my staff based on merit, I was brainwashed to consider their gender or race like it had ANYTHING to do with their qualifications....
midwestcoastI read somewhere that Bobkatz' wife was sick and died early February. I'm sure that was part of why he stepped away in retrospect.
this sent me down a rabbit hole and damn. just read her last blog post about mental health and her 3 cancers, MS, and another autoimmune disease. she committed suicide. kinda a gnarly read tbh.
abjectwoetime to get the popcorn out. the magic word has been spoken.
lol I know I know...
Listen, I'm all for inclusivity - but VR treated the entire situation like the industry is gatekeeping based on race, when in reality the obvious inequality is based on net worth. VR made it feel like it was our fault and duty to make it better, like it hasn't been a wealthy sport since inception, meanwhile the company continued to raise prices across the board....
I honestly believe skiing has one of the more inclusive working environments in general. These same damn meetings I'm talking about I would look around the table and it was filled with knuckleheads from every creed - black/white/brown, girls/boys/thems, preppy/hippie/nerdy, all different color hair/piercings/tattoos, and so on... And you know what? We were all UNITED by shred and the fact we were all broke trying to navigate living in some of the most affluent areas on the planet.
**This post was edited on May 29th 2025 at 1:01:47pm
one time i went to a work thing at deer valley and we had an inclusion presentation. the irony of it being at arguably one of the most exclusive public resort in the country was completely lost on them.
Ski there often. Gotta say, through all changes, good and (overall) bad...
It was an absolute joy having the terrain park back...and the end of season build was some of the best park I've seen there.
At least in the 6ish seasons ive been around.
SkiBum.Powder Mountain 2.0? Mr. Netflix has his hands all up in that and does not seem to be making any friends.
aflightlessbirdSki there often. Gotta say, through all changes, good and (overall) bad...
It was an absolute joy having the terrain park back...and the end of season build was some of the best park I've seen there.
At least in the 6ish seasons ive been around.
Yea the east coast has weakened quite a bit. Honestly the family owned mountaints are always my favorite ones anyways and they're pretty good about not selling out.
Even the family owned resorts ticket prices are high IMO now. I understand you have a business to run but over 100$ for an east coast mountain is rough.
abjectwoeVail purposefully killed East coast skiing to funnel people West to spend more $$$.
It's fucking criminal.
Imagine I owned a restaurant and bought a new one and made the food awful on purpose. Vail 101.
They shit on decades of history and ruined peoples lives so they could extract as much wealth as possible out of the sport.
