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Another "Does the shop owe me a ski?"

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elm.
Posts: 1474 - Karma: 13,338

Backstory is that I went sledding a couple weeks ago and my screws, which are quiver killed with CAST, wiggled free while on the sled rack.

I bring the skis in and the shop apparently forgot to loctite them and was explaining how it was so weird this happend. They locktite them and torque the screws back down, hard.

I swap out the bindings yesterday morning so I can tour with a different ski and two inserts come out with the screws. Lame.

I feel that this is a pretty complex situation. The skis that got stripped are also my 8 year old rock ski, but still.

Dropped off the ski today and am expecting a call from the owner.

What do y'all think?
Dec 12 2021 4:16PM
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MaimHelp
Posts: 1685 - Karma: 13,253
Since they weren’t new skis, they probably owe you a refund on the mount and maybe a discount on another pair of skis
Dec 12 2021 4:56PM
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Non_State_Actor
Posts: 4602 - Karma: 15,960
That was the third mount? Getting a free mount on your next sticks and a $25 gift card is probably reasonable.

Is there any sign of rot or damage in the core? The skis look beat but it can be hard to judge from such a tight photo.
Dec 12 2021 5:16PM
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CarsonLentz
Posts: 159 - Karma: 1,415
@weastcoat
Dec 12 2021 5:21PM
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elm.
Posts: 1474 - Karma: 13,338
mystery3That was the third mount? Getting a free mount on your next sticks and a $25 gift card is probably reasonable.

Is there any sign of rot or damage in the core? The skis look beat but it can be hard to judge from such a tight photo.


I don't believe there was any core damage. They're at the shop now so I can't check.

These skis are retired as far as I'm concerned. How can I ski confidently with this in the back of my head? The mount is compromised and there's not much space left to remount.
Dec 12 2021 5:46PM
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weastcoat
Posts: 6044 - Karma: 68,486
CarsonLentz@weastcoat


Honestly I think it may be a case of old skis. Unless the shop used too big a drill bit or something
Dec 12 2021 6:10PM
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twonsarelli
Posts: 127 - Karma: 661
Not surprised that the second attempt to screw the bindings in didn’t take. There is a reason you don’t use the same holes multiple times. They definitely botched the install but I’d say the odds of them replacing the skis for you is close to zero. Lobby for a refund on the bad mount job (and maybe a free mount next time) and move on.
Dec 12 2021 7:18PM
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elm.
Posts: 1474 - Karma: 13,338
twonsarelliNot surprised that the second attempt to screw the bindings in didn’t take. There is a reason you don’t use the same holes multiple times. They definitely botched the install but I’d say the odds of them replacing the skis for you is close to zero. Lobby for a refund on the bad mount job (and maybe a free mount next time) and move on.


They didn't use the same holes twice. Read the thread
Dec 12 2021 7:41PM
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elm.
Posts: 1474 - Karma: 13,338
weastcoatHonestly I think it may be a case of old skis. Unless the shop used too big a drill bit or something


The skis are old, but only get skied around 5 days a season as they are my rock touring ski.

I don't think they used enough epoxy. I mounted two pairs myself, which haven't had any problems and I globbed the epoxy in. I took these to the shop because I had extra money around and didn't want the headache of doing it myself again. It shakes my confidence in shops mounting quiver killers
Dec 12 2021 7:47PM
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FaunaSkis
Posts: 592 - Karma: 6,490
Definitely seems like they overcranked the screws in the inserts to get them to hold and stripped the hole for the insert in the ski. Whether that’s because of lack of epoxy isn’t clear and could just be a failure in the epoxy.

if they’ve not loctited the screws in the inserts the insert screw threads are probably toast, especially if you’ve done a bunch of swaps.

definitely some shop error but on an old ski there’s not a lot of scope for compensation.

I’d recommend binding freedom inserts next time. The threads are rolled not cut and so have better longevity. I’ve a bunch of experience of binding freedom inserts so feel free to DM especially if you’re looking for new skis.
Dec 12 2021 9:58PM
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elm.
Posts: 1474 - Karma: 13,338
FaunaSkisDefinitely seems like they overcranked the screws in the inserts to get them to hold and stripped the hole for the insert in the ski. Whether that’s because of lack of epoxy isn’t clear and could just be a failure in the epoxy.

if they’ve not loctited the screws in the inserts the insert screw threads are probably toast, especially if you’ve done a bunch of swaps.

definitely some shop error but on an old ski there’s not a lot of scope for compensation.

I’d recommend binding freedom inserts next time. The threads are rolled not cut and so have better longevity. I’ve a bunch of experience of binding freedom inserts so feel free to DM especially if you’re looking for new skis.


They were binding freedom actually. I always say quiver killers because it's more well known.

Update is the shop called me back and said they'd "repair" the ski. So yeah I'm never skiing it again. They really should've owned up and offered me something. It was my favorite shop but not about to put them on blast. Forward pressure was also way off and they brought my dins to 8 even though I asked for 11. Pretty bummed I lost a sentimental ski that I've had since college.

He also said that moment skis seem to have this problem because of the way their cores are made. Can anyone weigh in on this?
@hot.pocket ???
Dec 12 2021 10:15PM
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Non_State_Actor
Posts: 4602 - Karma: 15,960
elm.They were binding freedom actually. I always say quiver killers because it's more well known.

Update is the shop called me back and said they'd "repair" the ski. So yeah I'm never skiing it again.

Forward pressure was also way off and they brought my dins to 8 even though I asked for 11.

He also said that moment skis seem to have this problem because of the way their cores are made. Can anyone weigh in on this?
@hot.pocket ???


I really highly doubt that Moments have a higher propensity for binding pull outs and when a shop does a crappy job mounting bindings I think the blame should be found with the shop and not the ski.

Also what is with bindings coming out of reputable shops with completely jacked up adjustments?
Dec 12 2021 10:33PM
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hot.pocket
Posts: 4197 - Karma: 10,366
elm.He also said that moment skis seem to have this problem because of the way their cores are made. Can anyone weigh in on this?
@hot.pocket ???

We build our cores more or less just like everyone else. We laminate up boards of two types, stringers and fillers, resaw them into blanks, and profile them on the CNC.

Stringers are typically harder or denser woods that run through the entire length of the ski and are spaced apart width wise to accommodate most binding screws, definitely all the screws in the OP photo.

All the inserts in the OP photo went through three layers of glass, one that is specifically for binding retention, and into stringers. With the lack of loctite + rattling from being on the sled + the cleanliness of the leftmost insert (lack of epoxy / core debris) I'd say this is due to a bad mount.
Dec 13 2021 12:39AM
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HypeBeast
Posts: 9774 - Karma: 72,202
Is there any possibility op caused issues by tightening screws in too tight each time he swapped out? Or the shop threading the inserts too tight and stripping the hole? I get the point of the inserts and using epoxy but it obviously has a threshold for how tight you can turn something before the bond with the wood breaks.


Doesn't look like epoxy in there tho
Dec 13 2021 3:55AM
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FaunaSkis
Posts: 592 - Karma: 6,490
elm.They were binding freedom actually. I always say quiver killers because it's more well known.

Update is the shop called me back and said they'd "repair" the ski. So yeah I'm never skiing it again. They really should've owned up and offered me something. It was my favorite shop but not about to put them on blast. Forward pressure was also way off and they brought my dins to 8 even though I asked for 11. Pretty bummed I lost a sentimental ski that I've had since college.

He also said that moment skis seem to have this problem because of the way their cores are made. Can anyone weigh in on this?
@hot.pocket ???


It would be interesting to know what they did to “repair” them because id say you can't do a helicoil for an insert. Did they simply push the insert back in with some epoxy? Because there's no direct connection between the insert and core if the insert stripped the hole, you're fully relying on the epoxy at that point.
Did they put steel wool in with the epoxy? That would still sketch me out when it's for a insert that's going to get torqued and released. I think you're right to retire them.
It's always sad when a shop you rely on let you down but deal with them long enough and they're bound to let you down at least once. Unless it becomes a habit you're right not to put them on blast. At least it wasn't on a box fresh ski, although they might have been more inclined to compensate you.

Unless they have good reason to, it's not really cool to blame moment for how they make the ski though.
Dec 13 2021 6:55AM
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anders_a
Posts: 1680 - Karma: 5,602
looks like not enough epoxy and or rotten ski core, if you have old bindings holes you need a TON



when I do inserts I remove excess epoxy up top, its a shit job, but then you kniw its 100%



I had a 2/3 mount moment bibby pro I did inserts on, I had to use 3x the ammount of epoxy on thoose since it would just run away into channels and other holes.

When you mount bindings, never ever use force with inserts
Also you dont use loctite , but vibratite, totally different animal

**This post was edited on Dec 13th 2021 at 8:55:09am
Dec 13 2021 8:54AM
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elm.
Posts: 1474 - Karma: 13,338
HypeBeastIs there any possibility op caused issues by tightening screws in too tight each time he swapped out? Or the shop threading the inserts too tight and stripping the hole? I get the point of the inserts and using epoxy but it obviously has a threshold for how tight you can turn something before the bond with the wood breaks.


Doesn't look like epoxy in there tho

I never personally tightened down the screws. The shop did. And this was the first swap I did with them. Maybe 4 days of skiing after they were mounted.

If it was like 20+ swaps that would make sense
Dec 13 2021 9:12AM
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twonsarelli
Posts: 127 - Karma: 661
wow, so testy. you said 'They locktite them and torque the screws back down, hard.' it sounded like you said they screwed them back down into the same holes. MY BAD DUDE jesus
elm.They didn't use the same holes twice. Read the thread
Dec 13 2021 10:41AM
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