RIP VERMONT

SkiBum.Great news as Peak Resorts was a money black hole and has been on the verge of going under for years. They had some pretty janky resorts. Mt Snow was just as janky and unsafe and backwoods crap as the rest.

Money will get put into them. They will get up to standard with what good quality resorts should be.

Parks will get cut. Sorry jibbers. But that mount snow park was way to big. They will shrink just give it a year or two. Waste of money.

Cuts will come. All for the better. Polish resumes

Titus69If they ruin carinthia they're gonna get so much shit, they're one of the top 10 park builders in the country.

BiffbarfHot take-

Why's vail resorts acquiring low elevation/low precip resorts if climate change/warming is threatening our ski seasons as we know it? 🤔

SkiBum.They don’t care if they get “shit” from the 7% 16 year old demographic that uses that area

One of the main reasons their parks got so much positive publicity and ratings is because they had their hand in the pockets of those who rate that stuff. And they are the only game in the east with that much park.

Their parks are to big and they spend to much money. East to see there. Scale down. Keep same idea but cheaper and smaller. It’s a money game. I’m sure they will scale down like they have done at other resorts

Also, mount snows parks were rushed and slapped together most of the time. Scale that shit down to half the size and double the quality and it will actually be a thing to brag about.

Titus69Well yeah I know Vail doesnt give a fuck about anyone really, so I'm sure they'll have to size down the amount of parks in the future. Also they have MSA there so they have to satisfy them cause they produce good park skiers, wouldn't be surprised if they get an airbag or some shit too. Those parks were usually pretty good even compared to out west, I didnt ski there this year so idk but nothing was ever to big for me or most people there, liked the big jumps and the rails were never too tall or anything, wooden park is kinda stupid for skiers lol.

BiffbarfHot take-

Why's vail resorts acquiring low elevation/low precip resorts if climate change/warming is threatening our ski seasons as we know it? 🤔

.otto.This was my main thought. Makes no sense from a long term investment standpoint. Ski hills in Ohio? Their seasons of viable snow blowing months are disappearing

SkiBum.Vails been buying “feeder” hills since the start. That’s part of their business plan. You get the pass, you ski the little hills and you now can use this pass at one of the big resorts out west. You then travel there, stay at their hotel, rent skis from their shop, eat at their restaurants. Profit.

B.GillisHe wasn’t questioning the business model. He was questioning whether or not the hill will last another 20 years and if it is worth spending money on a place that could be snowless in the near future.

SkiBum.Great news as Peak Resorts was a money black hole and has been on the verge of going under for years. They had some pretty janky resorts. Mt Snow was just as janky and unsafe and backwoods crap as the rest.

Money will get put into them. They will get up to standard with what good quality resorts should be.

Parks will get cut. Sorry jibbers. But that mount snow park was way to big. They will shrink just give it a year or two. Waste of money.

Cuts will come. All for the better. Polish resumes

PeppermillRenoWhats this horseshit about no snow during winter?

The last few winters have been long AF in the East. Mid Atlantic part of the east is seeing more cold/snow than ever places you can usually golf in January more often than not. The West just got all time buried.

One fucking heatwave and newschoolers of all places is going RIP winter? We didn't have ONE warm day not fucking one in Boston until mid-late May and warm stretch until June. I know because I was away for the first couple at festivals.

Stop being cunts.

WhacksonMt. Snow is mostly known for their terrain parks as it’s one of the best in the east... if they cut the terrain parks Mt. Snow is done for

SkiBum.Vails been buying “feeder” hills since the start. That’s part of their business plan. You get the pass, you ski the little hills and you now can use this pass at one of the big resorts out west. You then travel there, stay at their hotel, rent skis from their shop, eat at their restaurants. Profit.

RparrR.I.P BMBW

Long live snow trails. Their parks were always better anyways. Now they're the only non corporate location left in Ohio

SkiBum.They don’t care if they get “shit” from the 7% 16 year old demographic that uses that area

One of the main reasons their parks got so much positive publicity and ratings is because they had their hand in the pockets of those who rate that stuff. And they are the only game in the east with that much park.

Their parks are to big and they spend to much money. East to see there. Scale down. Keep same idea but cheaper and smaller. It’s a money game. I’m sure they will scale down like they have done at other resorts

Also, mount snows parks were rushed and slapped together most of the time. Scale that shit down to half the size and double the quality and it will actually be a thing to brag about.

a_burgerNot a problem if you don’t actually invest the money and just dump the place when it isn’t viable anymore

.squirrely.Still plenty of great skiing in vermont, mt snow is flat as hell and the parks are over crowded. When vail acquires jay/ mrg/ smuggs/ sugarbush/ magic/ burke/ and the entire backcountry you can bump this thread and be correct

d_kolLearn a little about the ski industry before you hop on NS and start rambling that park budgets should be cut

**This post was edited on Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:43:57am

d_kolThis is probably the most ignorant post I’ve seen on NS in like 5 years. I don’t think you understand how much money a good park makes for a mountain. With less and less snowfall every year the east coast is becoming one of the worst places to grow up as a skier (and someone who’s passionate about that outdoors). Climate change has completely fucked our winters and only mountains with bottomless pockets can afford to blow enough snow to keep a respectable number of trails open throughout the season. Building a good, well-maintained terrain park gives skiers and snowboarders something to do no matter how much snow the east gets. You only need a couple jibs and a jump or two to stay entertained.

Take a look at Big Boulder Park. They’re an tiny mountain that makes an absurd amount of revenue off of park rats. Also, ever since hunter mountain started expanding empire parks I’ve noticed a significant increase in the number of groms ripping park and actually putting down their video game controllers to come shred.

Not to mention Greek Peak is practically going under because they refuse to build any park or replace their lights so bonobe wants to ski there anymore. The “16 year old demographic no one cares about” is a massive group of ppl that a) get their parents, siblings, friends, etc. to spend money and b) are the next generation of riders... aka where all the money will be coming from in ~10 years.

I’m not saying that it’s a good thing Vail acquired peak resorts, but hopefully they’ll take into consideration that terrain parks can only HELP east coast mountains and will pump some money into the industry. Yes mount snows parks have been a bit sloppy recently, but Mt. Snow and Kton are staple mountains in the east that are respected by park riders from around the world. How much money do think is required to host Dew Tour? And how much money do you think that generates?? Even before Instagram and GoPros being mainstream ppl obsessed over extreme sports. Now is the prime time to invest and expand. Learn a little about the ski industry before you hop on NS and start rambling that park budgets should be cut

**This post was edited on Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:43:57am

GrandThingsHow the FUCK is this company based out of Missouri?????? Is there even snow there?

B.GillisYou can’t be serious.

d_kolThis is probably the most ignorant post I’ve seen on NS in like 5 years. I don’t think you understand how much money a good park makes for a mountain. With less and less snowfall every year the east coast is becoming one of the worst places to grow up as a skier (and someone who’s passionate about that outdoors). Climate change has completely fucked our winters and only mountains with bottomless pockets can afford to blow enough snow to keep a respectable number of trails open throughout the season. Building a good, well-maintained terrain park gives skiers and snowboarders something to do no matter how much snow the east gets. You only need a couple jibs and a jump or two to stay entertained.

Take a look at Big Boulder Park. They’re an tiny mountain that makes an absurd amount of revenue off of park rats. Also, ever since hunter mountain started expanding empire parks I’ve noticed a significant increase in the number of groms ripping park and actually putting down their video game controllers to come shred.

Not to mention Greek Peak is practically going under because they refuse to build any park or replace their lights so bonobe wants to ski there anymore. The “16 year old demographic no one cares about” is a massive group of ppl that a) get their parents, siblings, friends, etc. to spend money and b) are the next generation of riders... aka where all the money will be coming from in ~10 years.

I’m not saying that it’s a good thing Vail acquired peak resorts, but hopefully they’ll take into consideration that terrain parks can only HELP east coast mountains and will pump some money into the industry. Yes mount snows parks have been a bit sloppy recently, but Mt. Snow and Kton are staple mountains in the east that are respected by park riders from around the world. How much money do think is required to host Dew Tour? And how much money do you think that generates?? Even before Instagram and GoPros being mainstream ppl obsessed over extreme sports. Now is the prime time to invest and expand. Learn a little about the ski industry before you hop on NS and start rambling that park budgets should be cut

**This post was edited on Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:43:57am

d_kolThis is probably the most ignorant post I’ve seen on NS in like 5 years. I don’t think you understand how much money a good park makes for a mountain. With less and less snowfall every year the east coast is becoming one of the worst places to grow up as a skier (and someone who’s passionate about that outdoors). Climate change has completely fucked our winters and only mountains with bottomless pockets can afford to blow enough snow to keep a respectable number of trails open throughout the season. Building a good, well-maintained terrain park gives skiers and snowboarders something to do no matter how much snow the east gets. You only need a couple jibs and a jump or two to stay entertained.

Take a look at Big Boulder Park. They’re an tiny mountain that makes an absurd amount of revenue off of park rats. Also, ever since hunter mountain started expanding empire parks I’ve noticed a significant increase in the number of groms ripping park and actually putting down their video game controllers to come shred.

- I doubt big boulder really pulled in much profit given the state of Peak Resorts financials. Yes that was a 50% park mountain. But their main draw was great college deals, cheap night tickets, bar and food specials. Up and coming kids ripping the park don’t really bring revenue...

- Hunter is your prime NYC target ski area. They have a Park because all ski areas do. They don’t advertise it or lean on it for revenue. They want family’s and NYC day crowds to buy passes and food. And they want to pack as many of them in as possible. Is the terrain park a draw? Maybe to some, but not to most.

Not to mention Greek Peak is practically going under because they refuse to build any park or replace their lights so bonobe wants to ski there anymore. The “16 year old demographic no one cares about” is a massive group of ppl that a) get their parents, siblings, friends, etc. to spend money and b) are the next generation of riders... aka where all the money will be coming from in ~10 years.

- All I know about Greek peak is small area somewhere in northeast. And I can guarantee you they are not going under because of no park...I don’t need to waste 20 min here to have you understand business and finance on this topic.

- Yes kids bring family and others. That’s a fact and a plus of terrain parks. Little Jerry sees a YouTube video of X resort and tells mom and dad he wants to go there. Great marketing. But not your main push.

I’m not saying that it’s a good thing Vail acquired peak resorts, but hopefully they’ll take into consideration that terrain parks can only HELP east coast mountains and will pump some money into the industry. Yes mount snows parks have been a bit sloppy recently, but Mt. Snow and Kton are staple mountains in the east that are respected by park riders from around the world. How much money do think is required to host Dew Tour? And how much money do you think that generates?? Even before Instagram and GoPros being mainstream ppl obsessed over extreme sports. Now is the prime time to invest and expand. Learn a little about the ski industry before you hop on NS and start rambling that park budgets should be cut

- So let’s talk about Dew Tour or World Cup. These are your highest level events and take a huge amount of money to hold. Sponsors will help. But the resort ends up putting in a ton of money and resources. That’s why only your big time players do these events and that’s one reason why there are not many and they are dwindling. It’s not worth the huge overhead for an assumed gamble on marking and future revenue. I’ve personally hand my hand in hosting these. And they suck to do. And are expensive. And when done you always ask the question “was this worth it”.

- It’s a proven statistic that terrain parks are not at peak as they once were. The ski business is now a luxury business. A food business. A real estate business. Terrain parks are a small percent of this. No ski area is putting half their budget to parks because of up and coming rippers or GoPro adds or whatever you think is happening.

- Here’s a quick easy way to look at one aspect of a terrain park. A super pipe. A super pipe costs $1 million to make from start to finish. Tell me what your ROI is on that. A big fucking 0. For the most part. That’s why there are like a half dozen of those things left.

- Thanks for reading my “learn a little on the ski industry” reply. I think you will learn a little by reading this.

- Source: about 15 years personally in mid then upper management with top tier ski resorts. Lifetime of family upper ski area management. And currently my past 3 years of financial and strategic business management and analytics.

**This post was edited on Jul 23rd 2019 at 10:43:57am

Titus69You're not wrong with parks being important but to think they're the heart and soul of skiing is wrong, I'd like to see your numbers and all your apparent knowledge of the ski industry. Parks improve the community and all but they're also really expensive to build and maintain, if they're carinthia sized parks.

d_kolEnlighten me.

SkiBum.See bullet point replies on each subject above

Brule.Fuck I was gonna consider doing a day trip to mount snow when I’m home for winter break, but I cannot bear the thought of yellow jackets being in Carinthia. Fuck vail, I’m not tryna go broke after paying over $100 for a lift ticket.

d_kolA) never said the “heart and soul of skiing” nor did I imply that with any point I made. I’m simply underlining the importance of terrain parks on the east coast as snowfall gets less and less each winter and small mountains need an angle to stay afloat in a wildly competitive and lucrative market

B) see my numbers to justify my knowledge of the ski industry? Lmao what dude? I mean I grew up skiing NY, PA, and VT, read plenty of articles, talk to plenty of locals, and surround myself with ppl who study (and have studied) finance, law, etc. If you’re looking for me to brandish a diploma in resort management or something then I guess you win?

Lastly, Carinthia is a unique case. I already said I agree that their park has been sloppy recently...but it’s also been a east coast Mecca for park skiing, expanded to other mountains and helped the scene grow, and earned a lot of respect for the east coast. Cutting the budget is not the answer, especially at small mountains that can actually make a small budget go a long way (ie. Elk mountain before their manager bounced to big boulder). Simply manage it better

skiermanOH YAH $10 BUMP IN LIFT TICKET PRICES! THE HORROR!

Titus69I'm talking your numbers on how much money resorts make off park skiers alone, cause you seem to hold that really high, even though most bigger east coast mountains generate money from normal skier families and Jerry's.

d_kolOkay let me clarify my point because apparently I stirred up a lot of shit and I'm realizing now that I wasn't very clear at first... I am fully aware that park skiers make up an almost negligible part of the general ski/board population, that restaurants, lodging, etc. make up the bulk of the income, yadayadayada.

My argument is that park budgets shouldn't be completely cut/dropped. Building large features is obviously a huge expense and financially speaking isn't worth it 9 times out of 10; However, building and managing a small park with a few jibs and a kicker IS worth it, and should be factored into the decision when re-evaluating park budgets, (and can only help with marketing). @B.Gillis made the point that Greek Peak makes a ton of money off of college nights. I went to school in upstate New York and can tell you right now that Greek Peak is losing out on like 5-10 universities worth of students (100K+ easily) within a 30 mile radius. Plenty of "non-park rats" or whatever will still notice that a mountain has a rad set up or not. You don't have to be the rail-guru of your local mountain to appreciate a few jibs and hype up the place to your friends, ultimately bringing in more ticket sales, food purchases, etc. Sure, families of jerrys with money bring in immediate ROI, but think long term and foster the growth of a sub-culture within the sport that will only grow as climate change gets worse, skiing becomes more accessible, and people look for a way to entertain themselves on those weekend after the northeast gets slammed by 8 inches of rain in the middle of February...

My numbers: I honestly have no concrete number(s) for you and don't have the patience or time to do the research. That being said, I don't think that discredits the fact that the anticipated budgets to keep small mountain's parks (not Carinthia, Killington, etc.) really isn't that ridiculous, and small east coast mountains fighting to stay open should continue to expand their park scene. Keep it small, don't get rid of it all together though because that's actually stupid.

d_kolOkay let me clarify my point because apparently I stirred up a lot of shit and I'm realizing now that I wasn't very clear at first... I am fully aware that park skiers make up an almost negligible part of the general ski/board population, that restaurants, lodging, etc. make up the bulk of the income, yadayadayada.

My argument is that park budgets shouldn't be completely cut/dropped. Building large features is obviously a huge expense and financially speaking isn't worth it 9 times out of 10; However, building and managing a small park with a few jibs and a kicker IS worth it, and should be factored into the decision when re-evaluating park budgets, (and can only help with marketing). @B.Gillis made the point that Greek Peak makes a ton of money off of college nights. I went to school in upstate New York and can tell you right now that Greek Peak is losing out on like 5-10 universities worth of students (100K+ easily) within a 30 mile radius. Plenty of "non-park rats" or whatever will still notice that a mountain has a rad set up or not. You don't have to be the rail-guru of your local mountain to appreciate a few jibs and hype up the place to your friends, ultimately bringing in more ticket sales, food purchases, etc. Sure, families of jerrys with money bring in immediate ROI, but think long term and foster the growth of a sub-culture within the sport that will only grow as climate change gets worse, skiing becomes more accessible, and people look for a way to entertain themselves on those weekend after the northeast gets slammed by 8 inches of rain in the middle of February...

My numbers: I honestly have no concrete number(s) for you and don't have the patience or time to do the research. That being said, I don't think that discredits the fact that the anticipated budgets to keep small mountain's parks (not Carinthia, Killington, etc.) really isn't that ridiculous, and small east coast mountains fighting to stay open should continue to expand their park scene. Keep it small, don't get rid of it all together though because that's actually stupid.

kung_powpowI agree that park budgets shouldn't be cut but you should think about it from the other perspective. Resorts slash the park budget because it is relatively unprofitable, and to make room for expenditures elsewhere with higher margins. They want to target their biggest market segment with the highest margins and this is the jerrys. You said it yourself, jerry fams bring in the ROI. Jerrys have to stay in the resort owned hotels, eat at restaurants all the time, buy expensive day tickets, rent gear, and will actually pay the $20 for parking. These smaller resorts now have Vail on their side to fund capital expenditures in dank hotels, restaurants, and facilities that will help dig them out of the red.

Locally owned resorts may care about fostering culture, but any publically traded company will not. Culture doesn't drive share price. A culture also doesn't necessarily speak to the masses and foster increased skier visits; a good marketing strategy does. Mountains recognize that climate change is a real threat; profits are protected through diversification, not park skiers sticking it out in the rain. Rather, the threat of shorter seasons will be combated by aggressive investment in summer activities to keep the jerry families coming in and dropping bank year-round.

d_kolWord, you make some super valid points. I recently started working for Mammoth and until this summer I didn't realize how much money the summer season brings in at a lot of mountains. Thats definitely a whole new angle that smaller resorts on the east can now play up on with Vail money at their backs. I'm not saying that the small population of die-hard park skiers will keep the gears turning, just that it's a demographic that shouldn't be ignored and shot down. Sure, maybe in a significant number of cases terrain park maintenance is a money pit, but instead of doing away with it mountains should revise the general project that is park development/expansion and realize the potential ROI it offers when done properly.

willyg0808Booooo! Boo Vail boo Epic!! As an Ohio native who grew up spending 4+ days a week at Mad River Mountain in Ohio, I have just three comments.
1.) Vail/pic pass makes skiing less accessible to lower income people & middle income newcomers. A large portion of Ohioans have tried skiing. This is because it is relatively affordable and accessible. I suspect a Mad River day pass + rental will no longer cost

**This post was edited on Jul 24th 2019 at 9:53:25am