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Boot fit - Instep and heel lift

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Emma_Watson
Posts: 4483 - Karma: 6,662
I've been riding FT for the past 5-6 seasons, and have slowly been realizing that it's not the fit I want. I've sized down from 27.5 to a 26.5, now I'm thinking of a 25.5 and straying away from FT (poor fit and plastics/durability suck).

I've had to pack out the volume in my boot with everything from molded liners, foot beds, shin eliminator (http://www.earnyourturns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/eliminator_8x.jpg), double socking, taping a sponge over the heel cup, and using shorter cables.

I am a 8.5 US shoe (with chicken legs and thin feet)

135 and 5'9"

I have an instep of 22.5cm (measured as a circumference, not from one side of the brannock to the other)

Even with FT's 99mm last and a foot bed to accommodate my arch, i still cant figure how to keep my heel down with a snug fit.

With an instep of 22.5 it would make sense to size down to a 25.5?

Additionally, does anyone have experience with Dalbello's Il Moro and feet like mine?

Any help or advice on fitting a boot w my chickn feet helps!

cheers!!!
Aug 10 2016 3:40PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,296
If the 99mm last width isn't cutting it then the next step down is a race boot. Something like the atomic redster or nordica dobermann wc, they have a 93-92 last width. If you are worried it will be too narrow don't. Race boots are made with extra thick plastic so you can stretch and grind them to get a perfect fit.

If you're worried a race boot won't be good in the park, it will be fine. Lots of pro park skiers wear race boots, because they're nice and stiff for big landings/going fast and have a much more precise fit for better control and energy transmission. There was a NS thread about all the pro park skiers that ski race boots somewhere, maybe someone else can find it.
Aug 10 2016 4:38PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,296
Here we go, found the thread: https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/thread/811537/Why-do-some-Park-and-pipe-skiers-use-race-boots-
Aug 10 2016 4:42PM
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profa_212
Posts: 8633 - Karma: 32,533
Go to a bootfitter. Buttttt I'm assuming you know that.

25.5 makes perfect sense. But it depends completely on the shape of you foot and the shape of the boot. And then with a proper footbed etc etc.

I'm in a 25.5 and I'm ~9.5 foot. But take that as a literal grain of salt because everyone wears street shoes loose etc.
Aug 10 2016 9:24PM
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sharhodes
Posts: 225 - Karma: 359
check our lange RX series in the LV model. You can find them for a good price and theyre nice for bootfitters to work with.
Aug 11 2016 10:45AM
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Negromancer
Posts: 1014 - Karma: 1,499
Have you tried sticking a bit of foam (not mushy soft foam the fairly firm self-adhesive stuff) around your achillies (J bar), a bit of extra padding around the achillies and ankle has dramatically reduced heel lift in my boots.

Do a shell check with your Full Tilt's, take the liner out, slide your foot into the shell so your toes are just touching the end of the boot and measure the space between your heel and shell. 1cm space is a performance fit, 2cm is standard fit, 3cm+ is too large. If you've got a fair bit of space (2cm+) then you could look at sizing down.

If you've got skinny feet then I'd look at some race boots, they're lower volume and should hold your feet a lot better than FT's if they fit well. Race boots are also fine for park, I skied Lange RS130's in the park for a long time and Jossi Well's skis Atomic Redster in the park.
Aug 11 2016 8:12PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6638 - Karma: 10,532
Emma_WatsonI have an instep of 22.5cm (measured as a circumference, not from one side of the brannock to the other)

Even with FT's 99mm last and a foot bed to accommodate my arch, i still cant figure how to keep my heel down with a snug fit.

With an instep of 22.5 it would make sense to size down to a 25.5?


With such a low volume (instep) foot, you should be looking at boots narrower than the typical "99/98mm". One of the dimensions crucial for locking your heel down (besides the heel pocket itself) is height of the instep. If you had two boots with the same heel pocket but one is taller over the instep than the other, then the boot with a taller instep will have a looser heel fit and it will also feel shorter in length. The instep of the boot plays a crucial role in both keeping your heel down and locked into the back of the boot.

1. As a few others have said, you should most likely be looking at "real" race boots, the kind that are 95mm or narrower. These will have lower insteps and are available in normal flexes like 110 or 130, not just crazy stiff flexes. "Commercial" race boots are 98/97mm and will be too wide & high volume for your foot.

2. Unless a 25.5 is the absolute right length for your foot, I would not suggest going down to a size 25.5 to get the right volume. For starters, while each shell is a dedicated size, the cuffs are shared between sizes (25 shell uses a 24/25 cuff, 26 shell uses a 26/27 cuff, etc), so it will be noticeably lower on your leg. This will most likely not be a good thing for you given your height.

So, I would recommend staying in a 26 (assuming that is the right length for you) but finding a lower volume shell to match your low volume foot. Then get the flex that is right for you.
Aug 12 2016 4:52AM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
Id bet the 26 shell is too long. Youre at the point where you want more of a high performance/race fit, a one finger shell fit. A 25 shell is where itll be at for you. Have you done a shell fit in your current 26s?
Aug 12 2016 8:27AM
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Emma_Watson
Posts: 4483 - Karma: 6,662
HarambeHave you tried sticking a bit of foam (not mushy soft foam the fairly firm self-adhesive stuff) around your achillies (J bar), a bit of extra padding around the achillies and ankle has dramatically reduced heel lift in my boots.

Do a shell check with your Full Tilt's, take the liner out, slide your foot into the shell so your toes are just touching the end of the boot and measure the space between your heel and shell. 1cm space is a performance fit, 2cm is standard fit, 3cm+ is too large. If you've got a fair bit of space (2cm+) then you could look at sizing down.

If you've got skinny feet then I'd look at some race boots, they're lower volume and should hold your feet a lot better than FT's if they fit well. Race boots are also fine for park, I skied Lange RS130's in the park for a long time and Jossi Well's skis Atomic Redster in the park.


onenerdykidWith such a low volume (instep) foot, you should be looking at boots narrower than the typical "99/98mm". One of the dimensions crucial for locking your heel down (besides the heel pocket itself) is height of the instep. If you had two boots with the same heel pocket but one is taller over the instep than the other, then the boot with a taller instep will have a looser heel fit and it will also feel shorter in length. The instep of the boot plays a crucial role in both keeping your heel down and locked into the back of the boot.

1. As a few others have said, you should most likely be looking at "real" race boots, the kind that are 95mm or narrower. These will have lower insteps and are available in normal flexes like 110 or 130, not just crazy stiff flexes. "Commercial" race boots are 98/97mm and will be too wide & high volume for your foot.

2. Unless a 25.5 is the absolute right length for your foot, I would not suggest going down to a size 25.5 to get the right volume. For starters, while each shell is a dedicated size, the cuffs are shared between sizes (25 shell uses a 24/25 cuff, 26 shell uses a 26/27 cuff, etc), so it will be noticeably lower on your leg. This will most likely not be a good thing for you given your height.

So, I would recommend staying in a 26 (assuming that is the right length for you) but finding a lower volume shell to match your low volume foot. Then get the flex that is right for you.


japanadaId bet the 26 shell is too long. Youre at the point where you want more of a high performance/race fit, a one finger shell fit. A 25 shell is where itll be at for you. Have you done a shell fit in your current 26s?



thanks for the responses.

I have about 2 inches from my heel and the shell of my boot w/ no liner.
Aug 12 2016 11:47AM
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Emma_Watson
Posts: 4483 - Karma: 6,662
japanadaId bet the 26 shell is too long. Youre at the point where you want more of a high performance/race fit, a one finger shell fit. A 25 shell is where itll be at for you. Have you done a shell fit in your current 26s?


Are the liners more thin with a performance fit?
Aug 12 2016 11:48AM
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japanada
Posts: 13784 - Karma: 1,957
Emma_WatsonAre the liners more thin with a performance fit?


If you have 2 INCHES between your heel and the shell, you are in a boot at least 2 sizes too big, if not more. Traditionally a 1 CENTIMETER distance is a performance fit, with a 2 CM distance as a comfort fit. Less than 1 CM is a race fit and usually requires some sort of stretching or grinding to the shell or liner to get a well fit boot. You need new boots in my mind. Even with using foam and new liners to try to take up space, all youre doing is putting a bandaid on a gunshot imo.
Aug 12 2016 1:42PM
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Negromancer
Posts: 1014 - Karma: 1,499
Emma_Watsonthanks for the responses.

I have about 2 inches from my heel and the shell of my boot w/ no liner.


Yeah if you have 2 inches of space which is like 5cm or so then those boots are way too big and will never fit you. If you have 2cm of space then I'd look into adding in some extra foam around the ankle. If that still doesn't work go to a boot fitter and look for some low volume boots.
Aug 12 2016 11:26PM
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Emma_Watson
Posts: 4483 - Karma: 6,662
HarambeYeah if you have 2 inches of space which is like 5cm or so then those boots are way too big and will never fit you. If you have 2cm of space then I'd look into adding in some extra foam around the ankle. If that still doesn't work go to a boot fitter and look for some low volume boots.


hahahahaha my bad.

2 CM of space between my heal and shell
Aug 14 2016 9:51PM
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Emma_Watson
Posts: 4483 - Karma: 6,662
Emma_Watsonhahahahaha my bad.

2 CM of space between my heal and shell


heel
Aug 14 2016 9:51PM
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Negromancer
Posts: 1014 - Karma: 1,499
Emma_Watsonhahahahaha my bad.

2 CM of space between my heal and shell


If you've got 2cm of space then I wouldn't downsize, I'd just look at going into a smaller volume 26.5 boot.
Aug 15 2016 8:20PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6638 - Karma: 10,532
Emma_Watsonhahahahaha my bad.

2 CM of space between my heal and shell


HarambeIf you've got 2cm of space then I wouldn't downsize, I'd just look at going into a smaller volume 26.5 boot.


Without seeing your foot, I would tend to agree.

Going down a shell size would result in a 1cm shell fit and while that is not crazy, it can lead to some warmth/general comfort issues.

Look into lower volume shells that provide around 1.5-1.8cm (2cm max) shell fit.
Aug 16 2016 10:06AM
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OregonDead
Posts: 6792 - Karma: 23,524
onenerdykidWithout seeing your foot, I would tend to agree.

Going down a shell size would result in a 1cm shell fit and while that is not crazy, it can lead to some warmth/general comfort issues.

Look into lower volume shells that provide around 1.5-1.8cm (2cm max) shell fit.


Yeah. This sounds smart. Getting the right fit in a lower volume boot seems way better than getting something too short. I've had people try to size me down multiple times just because I have narrow feet and the boots they had in stock didn't fit. More business for the shop if they have to punch your boot a ton but it's way easier for you if the fit is good out of the box.
Aug 16 2016 3:24PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3589 - Karma: 1,065
Emma_WatsonAdditionally, does anyone have experience with Dalbello's Il Moro and feet like mine?


from what it sounds like, we have almost identical body type and foot shape. I run into the same issue with all my boots- narrow last and low instep, which always makes me feel sloppy in my boots. I downsized from 26.5 to 25.5 last year and it was a good call for me, but the instep was still an issue. I have the Dalbello Lupo, which I'm pretty sure is very similar to the Il Moro. The last size (98mm) is pretty perfect, and I added a ~1-2cm shim to the boot base to raise my instep height. The shim definitely helped, but didn't completely solve the problem

Obviously go to a bootfitter, but you might run into the same problem I did; not a single shop in my entire city carried a 25.5 boot with a 98mm or lesser last. I had the option to make a special order, but then I'm stuck buying them regardless. Eventually settled on the Lupo and I'm super happy with them, but I'd have loved to try a bunch of different kinds first. Good luck man, having small feet is a bitch
Aug 22 2016 7:27PM
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Emma_Watson
Posts: 4483 - Karma: 6,662
treebeardfrom what it sounds like, we have almost identical body type and foot shape. I run into the same issue with all my boots- narrow last and low instep, which always makes me feel sloppy in my boots. I downsized from 26.5 to 25.5 last year and it was a good call for me, but the instep was still an issue. I have the Dalbello Lupo, which I'm pretty sure is very similar to the Il Moro. The last size (98mm) is pretty perfect, and I added a ~1-2cm shim to the boot base to raise my instep height. The shim definitely helped, but didn't completely solve the problem

Obviously go to a bootfitter, but you might run into the same problem I did; not a single shop in my entire city carried a 25.5 boot with a 98mm or lesser last. I had the option to make a special order, but then I'm stuck buying them regardless. Eventually settled on the Lupo and I'm super happy with them, but I'd have loved to try a bunch of different kinds first. Good luck man, having small feet is a bitch


Right on man.

Yeah, i'm sticking with my 26's until I can find some more narrow than 98mm in a size 25 at my shop (I bootfit for them; however, I have never fit someone with feet similar to mine).

I've added a heel wrap and a shim under my foot board and a thicker shim under my custom soles. Also added epoxy to my top buckle tracks so that they buckle down at the tightest point...

Looking into some 25's Lange's at 96mm.

hopefully this thread will help people w/ thin feet
Aug 22 2016 9:21PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,296
treebeardObviously go to a bootfitter, but you might run into the same problem I did; not a single shop in my entire city carried a 25.5 boot with a 98mm or lesser last. I had the option to make a special order, but then I'm stuck buying them regardless. Eventually settled on the Lupo and I'm super happy with them, but I'd have loved to try a bunch of different kinds first. Good luck man, having small feet is a bitch


I had the same problem with no one carrying narrow last boots. But one of my shop friends told me to crash race day and talk directly to the reps and just pretend like I raced. Every fall one of your local shops should have a day where the ski reps come to sell their boots to all the serious racers. Find out when that day is and then just show up and talk with the reps about what kind of boot you need. You'll get really good intel and the shop hosting usually backs the purchase if you are unsatisfied with your boots. They have some demo race boots for most sizes (not mine since I'm a 22). I successfully returned some pre-ordered race boots until I found the right ones, got store credit no problem, and also a discount for ordering on race day.
Aug 23 2016 1:24AM
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Mr.Penguin
Posts: 207 - Karma: 165
Your foot sounds like mine, I tried full tilts for a season (foamed liners) at the recommendation of a boot fitter. Had to buckle them so tight, once the liners packed, to feel solid in the boot that I couldn't ski for more than 10 minutes at a time before my feet started to fall asleep from lack of circulation. Went to the fitter and explained what was going on, long story short I am currently ridding in Lange World Cup ZA. According to the fitter I'm the first person in years he's just slid the boot on and said go ski without needing to grind anything. My feet have never been happier. The boots aren't overly stiff, they're rated as a 130 flex, probably a little stiffer than your average 130, but I also have limited range of motion forward in my ankles so I've been fit into 120+ flex boots for a while.

I would still highly recommend consulting a fitter as every case is a little different, but it definitely sounds like you're a case some form a race boot. As a bonus the lange's have warning stickers on them.
Aug 25 2016 1:12AM
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paige.
Posts: 1930 - Karma: 907
I was having similar issues to you (low volume foot, narrow heel, hypermobile, etc), but also with short feet (22.5 BSL, woohoo). The first shop I attempted had nothing for me - they told me there was no point even attempting to fit a boot so I may as well leave.

Luckily they referred me to another boot shop where I wound up being presented with two options: going to a semi-plug boot and spending 5+ hours working on it, or attempting to make one of Fischer's vacuum boots work for me. Once they heat up the boot they can either shrink it down or make it wider - I believe they say it starts with a 95mm last and should be able to change ~5mm (so 90-100mm or thereabouts). So that's another option for you to consider.

I went with the latter option because although it sounded gimmicky I wasn't going to be in town long enough to fine-tune the fit in the semi-plug, and because the ability to remold the vacuum boot multiple times if needed was appealing, and haven't been disappointed yet. Either option is going to get expensive unfortunately.
Aug 29 2016 9:30PM
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a_pla5tic_bag
Posts: 9210 - Karma: 5,357
treebeardObviously go to a bootfitter, but you might run into the same problem I did; not a single shop in my entire city carried a 25.5 boot with a 98mm or lesser last. I had the option to make a special order, but then I'm stuck buying them regardless. Eventually settled on the Lupo and I'm super happy with them, but I'd have loved to try a bunch of different kinds first. Good luck man, having small feet is a bitch


I have this problem. I have old Il Moros in a 25.5 and I think I could downsize a shell. They're the clear ones, so like 6 years old I think, they're a bit sloppy now. I need a 24.5 with a 98mm last. My identical twin brother just got salomon XMax 110's I think in that size and they felt nice. Little tight but I bet after a bit of use they'll be fine.
Aug 29 2016 10:31PM
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doitbig
Posts: 4818 - Karma: 315
i have the same issue with almost identical measurements. i am in a 25.5 il moro with stretched toe box. it fits better then anything else i have owned, but my next step is vacuum molded or a race boot.
Aug 31 2016 2:33PM
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JahFeels
Posts: 779 - Karma: 587
Rode fulltilts for 3 years and was never really happy with them. My foot never felt locked in and when it did, my feet were killing me after a few runs. Got some il moros and they seem to fit better out of the box then my full tilts ever did even after some work. The heel cup has a better hold and its a little wider on the side of my foot so its not smashed the whole time.
Aug 31 2016 4:25PM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24704 - Karma: 29,687
The biggest issue I find with full tilts has nothing to do with the shell - it's the liner.

That said, they are one of the easier boots to fit somebody as long as they are cooked right, with a proper footbed. They aren't for fide feet or particularly volumous insteps, but that's where the descendent and other boots on the market come in.

I use mine on a general basis and they do the trick pretty well. They don't ski as great as my race boots (no shit) but they do ski pretty decently.
Sep 18 2016 8:03AM
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