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S.J.WIf you're going to to look at the harmful effects of acid and DMT. No, they're not hard drugs at all. Cigarettes and beer are more harmful than acid and DMT. If you're going to look at the psychological effects like addiction than cigarettes and beer are still more harmful. DMT, acid, shrooms are pretty much harmless, unless you get a bad trip.
S.J.WIts a pretty well known fact that antidepressants are a placebo for the most part. It's been documented over and over again. Even if something doesn't medically work, doesn't mean it doesn't have results. Placebos still trick the brain into thinking you're getting better. Do you really think the doctor who prescribed this monster spray thought monsters are actually real and it will actually work??? And what's the name of your doctor?
S.J.WIts a pretty well known fact that antidepressants are a placebo for the most part. It's been documented over and over again. Even if something doesn't medically work, doesn't mean it doesn't have results. Placebos still trick the brain into thinking you're getting better. Do you really think the doctor who prescribed this monster spray thought monsters are actually real and it will actually work??? And what's the name of your doctor?
nocturnalFor all I know that could have been made with the label maker, why would you need a doctor to prescribe monster spray.
Your argument is now antidepressants are the equivalent to monster spray. It's very clear you just don't know what you're talking about. Go talk to a doctor next time you have an appointment about this I guarantee you they will disagree with you.
S.J.WI gladly will talk to my doctor about the ongoing debate about whether or not antidepressants are placebos or not. And if you actually read the research it finds about 25% is due to the drug, 25% is due to the patient naturally getting better, and 50% is a placebo.
Hahaha, love how you put words in my mouth. I was just giving you an example of how placebos help. Also 10/10 for saying who your doctor was. Maybe because he doesn't actually exist???
MinggDo you guys ever agree or do you just like to create your own little shit storms on NS?
nocturnalHey I'm not the one who thinks prescription medication doesn't actually work, and get my medical knowledge from the Huffington Post or the cchr.
MinggI think you both are partially right.
Would you agree that Tylenol doesn't actually treat a viral infection? Becuase
It doesn't. Your body fights virsus's, but tylenol does ease the symptoms.
That's how anti depressants and other meds work. They work but they don't fix things.
nocturnalNo because antidepressant change the chemicals in your brain so its nothing like Tylenol, and the study I assume he keeps referring to the very limited previously published studies only done on selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and an older tricyclics. It was then taken and blown out of context by the media, and now we have people who don't know what they're talking about parading around saying antidepressants and other psychotic medication doesn't work.
MinggI'm in no position to argue the science behind it haha.
From experience, yes, they make you feel better. They "work." You're "happier." They balance chemical imbalances and all that but it's kind of artificial. Once you stop taking them it's like nothing ever changed and you're back to where you started. The shit that bothered you before still bothers you. You still have the same negative outlook and all that. In my opinion the only way to get through something like that is to come to terms with it and accept it without meds. Just cause once you're off of them shit kinda hits the fan again.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't know the science behind it and you may be 100% right. They just felt like a temporary fix to me and didn't help too much in the long run.
CONAIR_BUSCEMINevertheless, if you are suffering from depression, fear based phobias, GAD, situational anxiety, etc. probably stay away from psychedelics and start off with high dosages of L-theanine, Ashwagandha, Lysine, Inositol, Rhodiola Rosea, etc. Something that is safe and effective. Figure out how you experience these disorders. For example, what triggers them, is it fear based because of negative thought loops. If that’s that case try CBT.
Figurem out if it is a dopamine, serotonin or GABA problem. Increased serotonin if your disorder is because of downregulated GABA receptors in specific areas of your brain can exasperate the problems. I know I’m being vague, just figure out what your deficient in and start from there.
_Ryan_A good example of something that science isn't able to break down and understand is raw conciousness... It is a complete mystery and that is a fact.
If you aren't denying there are medical benefits to mushrooms then why is it "absolutely bogus" to consider that mushrooms may be an effective alternative to these illnesses. ESPECIALLY when there are thousands upon thousands of both primary and secondary research cases documenting the effective treatment of depression and anxiety. Not to mention the fact that you are speaking to people who at one time were severely depressed or crippled by anxiety and now have more confidence and positivity than they have ever had... You cannot denounce first hand experience, it fucking happened. Regardless of wether it will work for everyone or not, it works and is proven to have that potential simply based on all the first had research out there.
I laugh when you talk about "depression is incurable" "chemical imbalance", scientifically this may be the case... this is a physical way of looking at it.
good day sir.
CONAIR_BUSCEMIIt’s the chemical within the mushroom or toadstool that is psychoactive. Psilocybin, which converts to psilocin in the liver is safer than SSRI’s and Benzo’s, longterm if taken in the controlled dose/bodyweight ratio. This should be regulated and capsulized, so those who do suffer from fear based phobias and cluster headaches can benefit without having to be unsure about its quality.
"Associated Press July 1, 2008 -- Scientists reported Tuesday that when they surveyed volunteers 14 months after they took a psychedelic drug as part of a research project, most said they were still feeling and behaving better because of the experience."
However, even in the controlled setting of the laboratory, nearly a third of participants felt significant fear under the effects of the drug. Without proper supervision, someone could be harmed, researchers said.
Hence, the reason why could have been banned. Nevertheless, psilocybin is less harmful to a persons psyche and internals than alcohol.
With further research, psilocybin may prove useful in helping to treat alcoholism and drug dependence, and in aiding seriously ill patients as they deal with psychological distress, said study lead author Roland Griffiths of Johns Hopkins.
Psilocybin in high dosages can induce a defragmentation of identity, a rebooting of internalized culture and a temporary but effective destruction of the ego. The experience is more 'real' than reality itself, which is confirmed by fMRI scans. Hence, possibly another reason why it is banned.
reBlockeOK fine I'll bite.
Pop quiz. Safe and effective is....
a.) FDA approved for the treatment of depression, studied in millions of people with a very minimal and known side effect profile. Shown to be more effective than placebo (as I discussed in the last post) and known to create remission in 2/3 of depressed patients without additional intervention (e.g. no therapy, no comprehensive life overhaul)
b.) a shitload of random amino acids, herbs, and ayurvedic meds - all of which have the same potential for adverse reactions that pharmaceuticals do - that have never been shown to have any efficacy in depression. Furthermore, they are not proactively regulated by anyone, so you may or may not actually get the active ingredient you think your getting. (though I'll grant you that the cognitive behavioral therapy recommendation is legit)
c.) fuck it all and trip balls for a few days and hope new understanding of reality will whatever fix your psycho-social-neuro-hormonal problems are driving your depression.
I mean, I get that it's cool that hallucinogens have some potential (that has not been replicated in 'thousands' of studies - in fact it has only been tested in small 'proof-of-concept' type studies that do not compare it to current standard of care - and only in cases of refractory depression, and those with comorbid PTSD) to treat depression. And I'll grant you that every person's experience is different. But use your heads - if you were depressed would you really want an experimental treatment -unknown if it works at all, unknown what dosage or treatment regime would be effective, unknown what side effects or adverse reactions it might cause- as your first shot, when good safe options exist? It would literally be medical malpractice for someone who knows what they're talking about to prescribe that. If you want to try shrooms, try shrooms - but don't do as a treatment for depression.
No, science / western medicine doesn't have the answer to everything and it never will. However, it does have answers to some things, and randomized controlled trials demonstrating efficacy and safety is not equivalent to some anecdotes and a few preliminary studies.
nocturnalI know your numbers are fake because it wouldn't round off to such an easy percentage. And even if your percentage was true, which is not you just contradicted your own words in your post that a percentage of the drug Works. Also that's a very surprising coincidence that after you take antidepressants you get 25% "naturally better."
And finally I can very easily post of the name of any Doctor that is well versed in this field and have seen firsthand the effects of antidepressants working, but I'm not going to. I could just google the name of a doctor and post it, wouldn't be very hard, and wouldn't prove a thing to my argument that antidepressants work. Whether you believe it's 25% or not.
S.J.WOkay well you sure an ignorant little cunt aren't ya. Anyways. Dr Irving used the freedom of information act to gain access to all of the studies done. And he found that people wild mild to moderate depression the anti depressents were mostly a placebo. It wasn't one study. And he was from Harvard if that makes a difference???
And a meta data analysis found that anti depresents only actually make up around 25% of healing.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/pre/1/2/2a/
And as far as doctors not prescribing placebos???
48% of doctors in Chicago have prescribed a placebo just to shut a patient up. And 98% of them believe a placebo does have some positive effects.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/01/29/48-percent-of-doctors-admit-to-prescribing-placebos-just-to-shut-you-up.aspx
And 10/10 for giving the name of your doctor who apparently doesn't take donations but you can't remember his name. You make so much shit up just to prove a point... I'm done with this. I've presented my argument, I've presented my sources. You haven't even given one source, and you've made up your own anecdotal experiences. So goodbye Felicia. Try not to think to hard today. You may learn something...
.MASSHOLE.1. The difference between consciousness and this is the fact that scientists can observe/measure the reactions that occur when chemicals are introduced to the body. There is science that can be applied to this, it is irrefutable. MRI machines can map out how the brain reactions to psilocybin.
2. There is little to no primary research in a CLINICAL study where the effects of mushrooms can be be observed for their medical benefits. First hand experience is not clinical research. You are not comparing apples to apples. Anyone who has ever done a lab test can tell you that effective studies control variables. No singular firsthand experience will ever be identical or even remotely similar to another.
3. There is no other way to look at depression. Depression is VERY different from general unhappiness. Minor or moderate depression may be a result of general unhappiness, but severe depression is not.
4. Look at CONAIR's post below, he has highlighted a few of the potential downsides to it. For a medication to be considered a treatment option the treatment outcome needs to outweigh the potential side effects.
This is what I was getting at when I was asking everyone about the side-effects. The potential downsides are HUGE for anyone battling a mental illness. I have always recognized the potential benefits of mushrooms, but really question if the risk is worth it for a majority of patients.
A point of note, it is quite obvious alcohol would be worse for a persons psyche than psilocybin, it is a depressant.
S.J.WIts a pretty well known fact that antidepressants are a placebo for the most part. It's been documented over and over again. Even if something doesn't medically work, doesn't mean it doesn't have results. Placebos still trick the brain into thinking you're getting better. Do you really think the doctor who prescribed this monster spray thought monsters are actually real and it will actually work??? And what's the name of your doctor?
AgitatedHiatusI really didn't think this thread would get out of control. I was just looking at how you guys cope with things.
AgitatedHiatusI really didn't think this thread would get out of control. I was just looking at how you guys cope with things.
reBlockeOK fine I'll bite.
Pop quiz. Safe and effective is....
a.) FDA approved for the treatment of depression, studied in millions of people with a very minimal and known side effect profile. Shown to be more effective than placebo (as I discussed in the last post) and known to create remission in 2/3 of depressed patients without additional intervention (e.g. no therapy, no comprehensive life overhaul)
b.) a shitload of random amino acids, herbs, and ayurvedic meds - all of which have the same potential for adverse reactions that pharmaceuticals do - that have never been shown to have any efficacy in depression. Furthermore, they are not proactively regulated by anyone, so you may or may not actually get the active ingredient you think your getting. (though I'll grant you that the cognitive behavioral therapy recommendation is legit)
c.) fuck it all and trip balls for a few days and hope new understanding of reality will whatever fix your psycho-social-neuro-hormonal problems are driving your depression.
I mean, I get that it's cool that hallucinogens have some potential (that has not been replicated in 'thousands' of studies - in fact it has only been tested in small 'proof-of-concept' type studies that do not compare it to current standard of care - and only in cases of refractory depression, and those with comorbid PTSD) to treat depression. And I'll grant you that every person's experience is different. But use your heads - if you were depressed would you really want an experimental treatment -unknown if it works at all, unknown what dosage or treatment regime would be effective, unknown what side effects or adverse reactions it might cause- as your first shot, when good safe options exist? It would literally be medical malpractice for someone who knows what they're talking about to prescribe that. If you want to try shrooms, try shrooms - but don't do as a treatment for depression.
No, science / western medicine doesn't have the answer to everything and it never will. However, it does have answers to some things, and randomized controlled trials demonstrating efficacy and safety is not equivalent to some anecdotes and a few preliminary studies.
CONAIR_BUSCEMITreating mental disorders, for example anxiety and fear based phobias with drugs where the mechanisms of action is agonist via GABA receptors like benzodiazepine’s can be particularly unsafe for longterm use. Nevertheless, FDA approval simply means that the risks outweigh the benefits for the indication and under the conditions that are in the label. Therefore, the drug should be used accordingly and appropriately. There's a lot that can go wrong that doesn't fit under that definition.
The fact is that the FDA does not conduct tests/safety trial investigations on the drugs that are up for approval. The FDA relies completely on research/trials of the pharmaceutical company who develops and applies for a new drugs approval. lobby
Yes, trials to determine a drugs efficacy can be run by independent physicians and major research hospitals and clinics around the world.
"The user fees enable the FDA to hirer more people to scrutinize NDAs to determine if they merits approval.” Which, wouldn’t be classified as research.
Basically, pharmaceutical companies lobby and bribe the FDA to approve their drugs, and accepts research that may or may not be founded with good science. And that the user fee of $2,169,100 that will be charged to drug companies in 2014 is peanuts to them. Conflict of interest pure and simple.
Drugs like Levaquin and Cipro don’t have stronger warnings, even though over 60,000 complaints have been filed with the FDA letting them know of body wide side effects causing permenant damage to people has gone no where. Forbes, PBS, NYTimes all have written articles on terrying side effects that have caused disabilities to 10′s of thousands of people and FDA has looked the other way.
I am simply saying be weary about what you are told. GABA agonists, even less potent herbs that are not FDA approved have their consequences. Agonist of GABA, induced down regulation of receptors, builds tolerance fast and as a result rebound and withdraw upon cessation. This is prolonged use and not acute. However, these drugs do have valuable medicinal use, nor am I suggesting that they should NEVER be taken in any circumstance. I’m saying that prolonged usage of these drugs, in my opinion should be avoided if treating anxiety and fear based phobias.