Revision skis announces rail damage waranty!

One thing I never hear talk about is the metallurgy of ski edges. In tools or car parts or something there's always a lot of talk about 'sure, the product made in China is exactly identical and specs, but the metallurgy just isn't as good' so you can expect that tool or part to wear out faster or break easier.

There are a hell of a lot of different types and ways of making steel that all have different results. Do ski companies care about this or look to experiment with this or do they just get what comes from the factory and be happy with it? ON3P say they use the thickest edge available, but would you need the thickest edge if you picked a steel that had the optimum carbon content for example. There are a million different low alloy or allow steels that all are good for different purposes, from my experience with ski edges it seems like the steel used is just whatever grade nothing steel that would never be acceptable for a high-wear surface in any other application.

VinnieFOne thing I never hear talk about is the metallurgy of ski edges. In tools or car parts or something there's always a lot of talk about 'sure, the product made in China is exactly identical and specs, but the metallurgy just isn't as good' so you can expect that tool or part to wear out faster or break easier.

There are a hell of a lot of different types and ways of making steel that all have different results. Do ski companies care about this or look to experiment with this or do they just get what comes from the factory and be happy with it? ON3P say they use the thickest edge available, but would you need the thickest edge if you picked a steel that had the optimum carbon content for example. There are a million different low alloy or allow steels that all are good for different purposes, from my experience with ski edges it seems like the steel used is just whatever grade nothing steel that would never be acceptable for a high-wear surface in any other application.

We use metallurgy to get the ideal edge anneal on the tips and tails of our skis and even brought a metallurgist in to help consult us on how we treat our edges in house. Those tests are on-going, but we plan on building our own oven in the next year to continue exploring those results (right now, most ski edge annealing processes, from ON3P to Atomic, are done electrically). We want some more options to better control cooling curves in the future.

As far as metal used for ski edges, though, you don't have a lot of options. There are two companies that supply ski edges. Metall Deutsch and C.D. Walzholz. They are huge metal suppliers (I believe CDW does around 2-3 million skis/snowboard per year). We use CDW because we like the way they stamp their edges better.

You have access to some variance in stamping patterns if you buy in bulk, and can even get custom patterns made, but the metal types of limited. I know CDW offers two grades of metal in their edges, one is a spring steel and one is chromium steel. They are definitely not just whatever-grade nothing steel and are the result of decades of ski edge development. For ski edges, you need a very specific material to ensure you are able to form carbon martensite with the right hardness to hold an edge, while maintaining the elasticity and yield for ski flex and ductility and fatigue strength for durability and long life.

We've probably spent several thousand hours heat treating edges in our factory, so we've spent more than a bit of time analyzing and testing cooling curves in steel. It is something we are really interested in, but the reality is that something at this volume and this set is going to take years to adapt and change. I am sure they are working on it internally, just as we are, put I wouldn't hold your breath on a park specific edge material being released in mass anytime soon.

Maybe someone K2's sized has the pull to ask them to start messing with the metal composition, but I wouldn't even be surprised if that wasn't the case.

We looked into getting a thicker edge made up (even thicker than 2.5 x 2.5) and just the base level order for a different stamping patterns was staggering. I can't even imagine how high it would be for a different type of steel.

In a nutshell, ski edges are how they are for a reason. Rails are an x-factor that throw a curveball at them, as the overwhelming majority of skis never touch a rail and the ski edges are designed as such.

I won't say too much more, but we are working within the scope of our current ski edge on ways we can improve the characteristic of the material specifically for park skiing, though it is going to be a long process ahead.

CheddarJackTheir warranty reads:
"EDGE DAMAGE. Revision understands that you are likely to put these skis through the paces on rails, boxes, dumpsters, booters, concrete, trees, chair lifts, etc. If you read the warranties of our competitors, you will see that most would void a warranty for damage which would appear to be caused by this type of riding. We are different, and don’t want you to be out a pair of skis because you are using them as intended. As such, within reason and based on our sole judgement, we will warranty significant edge damage which we feel the ski should have held up to. NOTE: this is intended to provide you with a replacement for a ski which is essentially trashed, making the ski unridable – we consider this as damage of a minimum of 6″ continuous section of ski edge that has fallen out (or 4″ directly underfoot, between the bindings) as a result of this type of riding. We see a lot of park and street riders who keep riding with cracked edges and smaller missing pieces, and expect that you can, too. Revision reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to void the warranty of any purchaser it finds to have purposefully removed ski edge material for the purpose of filing a warranty claim.

Excluded under this warranty are the following:
Damage cause by neglect, misuse, or abuse
Snapped skis related to impacts, including but not limited to: rocks, rails, boxes, stumps, trees, concrete, parking lots, on-mountain equipment, chairlifts, etc.
Damage in the form of chips, dents, or indentations to the topsheets or bases
Damage caused by the improper mounting, adjustment, or use of bindings
Damage caused by solvents or adhesives
Graphic fading or discoloring, if due to misuse or neglect.
Normal wear and tear."

So since sliding a ledge or rail is a normal thing to do on a park ski, can the "normal wear and tear" exclusion therefore apply to rail damage, and if so, does that mean they can argue that such damage is not covered by warranty? That seems like it could be used negatively in their favor here... That would be disappointing for a lot of kids who are hyped on this. Definitely looks like it gives them a way to bow out.

iggyskierI know we are increasing our warranty this year, but it covers the things that we screw up, not what you screw up. That is the separation that I don't think is really understood by customers. It isn't that we want to screw you over, take your money, and deal with you hating us vocally in the forums in the next decade. It is that your edge cracks are not our fault, just like base damage or topsheet chipping isn't our fault. That is skiing.

For the sake of brevity I didn't quote the entire post, but a really awesome, in-depth response by Iggy that goes over some really important points in understanding why companies do what they do. Especially, this specific section. Implicit in the very concept of "warranty" is that it relates to something the manufacturer did not do correctly- a warranty exists to protect the buyer from a manufacturing defect. It does not and never has referred to things that the user does to the product. When that happens, it is something different and is called a "crash replacement" policy.

Warranty =/= Crash Replacement

LL Bean and Backcountry's "100% satisfaction or return it policy" is also not a warranty- it is a super awesome return policy.

What Revision is doing is ultimately not a warranty policy, but instead a very generous crash replacement policy. Calling it a warranty only perpetuates the confusion here, which is experienced by all consumers with all products. This is not to slight their policy in the least, but I think the industry owes it to everyone to use the right words and policy names so that people aren't confused and/or misuse terms.

Brands should exclude edge damage from a warranty policy unless the breakage is due to their manufacturing error. However, if the same brand wants to replace/fix skis through a crash replacement policy within a certain time after purchase, then it is a separate thing.

inb4 Revision's warranty dept's butthole is flapping in the breeze like a ripped boat sail.

onenerdykidSo since sliding a ledge or rail is a normal thing to do on a park ski, can the "normal wear and tear" exclusion therefore apply to rail damage, and if so, does that mean they can argue that such damage is not covered by warranty? That seems like it could be used negatively in their favor here... That would be disappointing for a lot of kids who are hyped on this. Definitely looks like it gives them a way to bow out.

Appreciate everyone's interest and insight into this topic.

Regarding the quote - do not worry, we will not be using 'normal wear and tear' as a loophole or exclusion for people that slide ledges or rails.

RevisionSkisAppreciate everyone's interest and insight into this topic.

Regarding the quote - do not worry, we will not be using 'normal wear and tear' as a loophole or exclusion for people that slide ledges or rails.

thats pretty sick then

CheddarJackTheir warranty reads:
" NOTE: this is intended to provide you with a replacement for a ski which is essentially trashed, making the ski unridable – we consider this as damage of a minimum of 6″ continuous section of ski edge that has fallen out (or 4″ directly underfoot, between the bindings) as a result of this type of riding.

...yeah, 4 inches of continuous edge missing is alot regardless of the ski or skiier. And 6 inches of edge is a huge amount

I break my fair share of skis for sure, but the amount of times that I retire a ski because it has that much edge missing is rare, usually by that point in a skis life the sidewalls are popping out and i have duck taped the tips of the skis back together.

what Iggyskiier says is a real nice rail repair policy and i'm glad that it exists

Ultimately, though, I think that the amount of skis that are gonna fall under this criteria are less common than we think. call me stupid

then again i break skis much more often by snapping them than by one catastrophic 6 inch edge blowout

iggyskierSince ON3P is obviously getting thrown into the mix here, I figure I would explain the way we deal with edge issues. Obviously I respect what Revision is doing here. Given the context of this thread, I'm sure we'll come off sort of as the bad guy here, but our approach is a bit different. Skis are a tool with a life span, and rail damage is part of the game. Rail damage is not a manufacturing defect. It isn't an issue at the factory. It is a metal edge hitting a metal bar over and over and there is so much that can be built into the skis to prevent that. We spend a ton of extra money and time putting edges and bases in our skis that are the thickest you can get, but the reality is that they are a life extender, not a end-all to prevent skis from getting edge cracks. Not expecting edge cracks is just not realistic. If you are going to hit rails all day, especially if you don't know how to prep and maintain your skis, you're gonna have a bad time, period. Take care of your skis and they will last. We view our warranty like that of a car. Delamming tip & tail? Probably our fault. Replace the ski. Crashed your car repeatedly into a wall? There is nothing we can do to prevent the damage from that.

If you hit a rail without detuning your edges correctly, or even just land on a rail incorrectly, they can crack first day. Again, we are taking about a little piece of metal impacting a big piece of metal with thousands of lbs of force. This year, we've even minorly detuning the FR underfoot at the factory because it seems so few people know how to prep their skis for rails.

Our approach to this, while I suppose we have done a poor job promoting it (which will change when our new website/warranty page drops) basically says we won't warranty for rail damage (because, it is impact damage, nothing to do with the ski construction or materials), but any damage you want to send our way, we will fix at no charge and return the skis to you. We're not the only people who operate this way - I believe Icelantic does this as well. If you edge pulls out, send them here, we will replace the edge, clean up the ski, and send them back to you with a fresh set of edges in there. We are happy to provide that service free of charge, but I personally believe replacing skis outright due to edge damage, especially because the vast majority of severe damage we see is from 1) no detune 2) no swapping skis 3) no sliding both ways and 4) no maintainance of your skis, isn't a fair request of ski manufacturers.

I would say 90+% of the time we see really bad edge pull outs, the ski have several shared characteristics. 1) All the damage is on just one edge, or at worst, one side. The vast majority of the time, all the damage is on one single edge and the other 3 edges often don't even have a crack. 2) The edges still, even after sliding a lot of rails, aren't detuned properly. 3) Crack was noticed, began to get worse, and ski kept being used instead of taking 30 minutes and doing a bit of maintenance to protect your investment.

If you want your edges to last...
1) Swap your left and right skis.
2) Learn to slide both ways.
3) Actually detune your skis. Everyone says they do, but I would say maybe 1/4 do it correctly.
4) If you see cracks, deal with them. Once a crack forms, water is getting in the ski. Water = Satan 666. Once water is getting in your ski, the clock is ticking until it falls apart.

Obviously in our case, it sucks to have to send your skis back to get repaired. It sucks here, too. We're busy building skis, so time is scarce. But we'd rather see the skis in person, ensure they are just normal rail damage, and fix them right with the correct base/edges and our factory tune than have you guys have to pay out the ass at a shop.

Hat's off to Revision if they feel comfortable doing it. Obviously, as everyone discussed here, there is risk involved and that is just business. From that standpoint, pretty simple equation. If profit from sales increase > cost of replacing skis, then obviously a great move. That said, in ON3P's case, I don't think it respects the work/cost/effort that goes into our skis. We're not some factory in China who can pump out skis for a few hundred dollars and make a living. I can promise you that there isn't a lot of money in running your own ski factory, building quality skis with quality materials. A huge amount of effort goes into every pair, so I can tell you there is certainly frustration on our end to see people destroy skis by killing one edge, then bitching us out, sending the skis in where we find that the ski has 3 sharp, completely intact edges and 1 blow out edge. Some of that is a failure on education on our part, most likely. We've talked about doing a how to keep your park skis alive piece for awhile, but just haven't had the time. Definitely something I will try to get out this year.

That vast majority of our team skis on 2 pairs of park skis per season. That is a lot of days on a lot of rails by guys who aren't small and ski hard, so we know our product can last without edge issues if the skis are prepped, maintained, and skied properly. That same stuff would go for all skis out there.

Construction wise, I don't think replacing skis for edge damage is a realistic reflection of where the ski construction is right now. As Logan and Nellyyy talked about a bit below, the impact tech just isn't there yet. We use the thickest edge, stronger base, and strongest sidewalls we can. Eventually, you will still wear your edges down though.

There is a particular design that had the potential to deal with edge issues that we were considering a few years ago, but once we found out it was patented by another brand we bailed. I am not sure when it runs out, but once it does there will be some interesting possibilities to explore. Going to be awhile though...

We're testing a bunch of different materials right now, even from some giant companies like Dupont, but until ski manufacturers can figure out how to maintain a carvable edge that can still take metal-to-metal impacts thousands of times under enormous force, your best bet it to get solid skis, prep them right, ski them right, and maintain them if they need work.

Our production manager (who has been here 4 years) is still skiing park on the pair of 10/11 Jeronimos he got for his internship. If they have an edge crack, he cleans it up, dries it out, drops a bit of epoxy in there to seal it up, clamps it overnight, scraps it off, keeps skiing. They easily have 120+ park days on them and still have all their edge.

The honest truth is that if you can't get edges to last more than a month, on ANY SKI, it is likely you, not the ski.

Here is one other consideration here. You can offer a 1 year, with edge damage covered, or you could offer a 2-3 year, with no edge damage covered. A pair ski with a 3-year warranty that covered edge damage would see a warranty rate of 100%. That just isn't realistic, especially for US-based manufacturers who are spending 2x the cost of building skis in China/Europe, but still charging in the same ballpark as most foreign built skis (Revision being the obviously except on price here, which I can tell you domestically no one actually building their own skis - Moment, Praxis, Folsom, ON3P, etc - could even come close to).

I know we are increasing our warranty this year, but it covers the things that we screw up, not what you screw up. That is the separation that I don't think is really understood by customers. It isn't that we want to screw you over, take your money, and deal with you hating us vocally in the forums in the next decade. It is that your edge cracks are not our fault, just like base damage or topsheet chipping isn't our fault. That is skiing.

Here is the other bit of insight here. ON3P receives warranty claims of less than 1% of the skis we build. Most of that 1% is edge related and in the conditions describe above. So, give the volume, we could afford to warranty the skis that we feel are user-damaged and not a real warranty claim. That said, how do you draw the right line? I want to treat every customer the same, and the other way to do that is with a policy that has a defined line. If I warranty the kid with 3" of edge missing, but not 2.5", that is a pretty tough place to be. Also, it becomes a very slippery slope going forward.

Looking at it as a brand, as much as we would love to stoke out the few customer who have bad rail damage, that just isn't fair to the guys in here who bust their ass for shit pay building the best skis we can. I think our approach respects the hard work all our employees puts in so you guys have an option to buy skis made by people you know, made in the USA, and made right.

So, there is a novel. I hope that offers some insider insight into how we view this issue, because trust us, it is one of the most discussed issues at our factory. We want you to be on your skis, we'll fix them free of charge, and do everything else we can, within reason, to make you happy. But we have to respect our work, our cost, and our brand and this is how we feel we should do it. Different strokes for different folks, and obviously Revision feels differently. We're very different brands in what we do (manufacturer vs marketer) so I think we have a pretty unique prospective given we build the product we sell.


We're very scared.



Bomb-proof price-point is sort of a oxymoron right now. That said, people are working on it.



"We will warranty significant edge damage which we feel the ski should have held up to. NOTE: this is intended to provide you with a replacement for a ski which is essentially trashed."

The hardest grey area here is what you define as a warranty under the terms. I'm sure they will work it out, but the dark side of this is that there will be people who purposely go out of their way to make damage worse that normal to utilize this. That is what I mean about this type of policy not honoring the hard work people put into the skis they build. The concern would be that it opens up the door to the possibility of abuse for something that pretty much industry wide is viewed as no different than impact damage to the base. I just think the expectation that ski companies should be replacing skis for edge damage, considering what hitting rails with skis actually is, just isn't realistic.



Maybe overseas. I can tell you that we need to be making a lot more skis before this is true for us though...



Same skier on both skis? As was stated above, if they contacted us, we would have extended the same offer we give to all of our customers - we don't warranty edge damage, but we will repair it free of charge. If that is doing nothing and really lame, so be it, but I feel it is fair given the circumstances.

My honest opinion, if someone is blowing out the edges on the Chronic or Filthy Rich, both built with thicker edges, in less than a month each, that isn't just the skis and there are surely things they could be doing to change the life of their skis (detune properly, swap skis, slide both ways, etc).

There are only 2 edge manufacturers in the world, and all the brands are buying from the same places. The edge material is all basically the same. The only thing at ON3P we can do is get the biggest material we can - which is 2.5mm x 2.5mm. It give you more life, but the wrong impact will still crack the edge. Add water and you're now missing several inches of edge. Take steps to prevent cracking (detune), wear the edges evenly (swap skis and slide both ways), and prevent water from getting in the ski (fill extra cracks with epoxy + clamp) and you should get a lot of life out of your skis.

If the person in question would still like help on the FR (I'm not sure if they contacted us or not, it would have come to me if they had), tell them to get in touch and we will fix the skis at no charge and send them back. My email is scott AT on3pskis DOT com.

You want a reason to stay on NS? Here you go: straight, interesting, engaging reply from the horse's mouth. Try finding anything like this from a car executive.

iggyskierwe don't warranty edge damage, but we will repair it free of charge. If that is doing nothing and really lame, so be it, but I feel it is fair given the circumstances.

Didn't want to quote the whole post, but yeah, Scott and the dudes at ON3P are really good dudes. I bought a pair of on3p's 3rd hand and they had a bit of damage (not edge) during shipping. I asked scott about it and he told me if I paid for shipping he would fix it for free (99% of manufacturers will not even consider doing this, they ask for the original receipt and make you go through a few hoops even if you were the original owner). I ended up fixing them myself with the info he gave me (as he told me it'd be more cost efficient and it was), but their warranty is legit.

That said, It's pretty wild for revision to be doing this, scott said it beautifully, edge damage isn't a manufacturing flaw, it's just something that hasn't been engineered to be better yet (sorta like how brakes aren't meant to deal with ejecting switch yet). More options are never a bad thing, and I'm glad revision, on3p, and icelantic to name a few are sticking by their product and offering customer service above and beyond in their own ways.

iggyskierThere is a particular design that had the potential to deal with edge issues that we were considering a few years ago, but once we found out it was patented by another brand we bailed. I am not sure when it runs out, but once it does there will be some interesting possibilities to explore. Going to be awhile though...

If it is the patent for Armada it looks like you've got a little under 7 years left to wait. I feel like the design would produce a very weak edge hold. Vertical edges seem hard to attach, they are small and splitting is a possibility. Old school styled puzzle piece edges seem like a better bet although they will produce more friction.

iggyskierWe're testing a bunch of different materials right now, even from some giant companies like Dupont, but until ski manufacturers can figure out how to maintain a carvable edge that can still take metal-to-metal impacts thousands of times under enormous force, your best bet it to get solid skis, prep them right, ski them right, and maintain them if they need work.

This is probably going to sound stupid, but why keep exploring metal edges if it seems you've hit a wall? In terms of impact, something has to give, make your edges strong enough and it will start to wear the rail more than the edge ($1000 park passes for everyone!). Ideally it seems like the best material would be able to absorb/ rebound on impacts but still be able to hold an edge on the hill. It's probably what lead Moment to the frankenski even though it didn't work as planned.

PoikenzThis is probably going to sound stupid, but why keep exploring metal edges if it seems you've hit a wall? In terms of impact, something has to give, make your edges strong enough and it will start to wear the rail more than the edge ($1000 park passes for everyone!). Ideally it seems like the best material would be able to absorb/ rebound on impacts but still be able to hold an edge on the hill. It's probably what lead Moment to the frankenski even though it didn't work as planned.

We're exploring both metal and non-metal options. As for exploring metal options, we can't dictate the metal before it gets to us, but there are things we can change before we put it in a ski, so worth exploring for sure. Will it work? We don't know, but it is worth testing for sure.

And yes...something that would allow the edge to absorb and rebound impacts while holding an edge would be great. Obviously no one has gotten there yet though.

iggyskierAnd yes...something that would allow the edge to absorb and rebound impacts while holding an edge would be great. Obviously no one has gotten there yet though.

I'm sure you've already explored this option but I've always thought lignum vitae edges underfoot would work well enough for rails, the problem being they would wear out fast on concrete or rocks. but for park skiing I could see them lasting as long as some steels. they'd definitely have some performance advantages too.

umm exuse me my skis snapped in half and the edges are rusted... from rail damage (:

iggyskierWe're exploring both metal and non-metal options. As for exploring metal options, we can't dictate the metal before it gets to us, but there are things we can change before we put it in a ski, so worth exploring for sure. Will it work? We don't know, but it is worth testing for sure.

And yes...something that would allow the edge to absorb and rebound impacts while holding an edge would be great. Obviously no one has gotten there yet though.

Have you looked into diamond edges?

haha just kidding, but seriously I'm a huge fan of ON3P. The skis they build, the customer service, and how they back up their product. Just awesome. The people there are legit too! The 2 best days I had on snow this year is when ON3P came up. Got to demo one day then take some laps with them the other. Real nice folk. ON3P 4 LYFE