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Court rules in Favor of Vail/Talisker over PCMR

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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
Things aren't looking good over there. Uh oh.

https://www.newschoolers.com/readnews/45272/Utah-court-hands-Park-City-Mountain-Resort-over-to-Vail-after-3-year-fight?c=latest&o=2&page=1

**This thread was edited on May 21st 2014 at 5:41:32pm
May 21 2014 5:36PM
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ShredMasterPlus
Posts: 1159 - Karma: 807
Then what is your point as to a negative besides that you don't like them.???
May 22 2014 1:33PM
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Mr.LemonPie
Posts: 4100 - Karma: 1,625
ScaredwhiteboyI really want an answer to this. It's not like Vail has run its mountains into the ground or is forcing the locals away. I think if you asked most Colorado skiers they'd be pretty content with the way Vail runs things.


I'm sure if you asked people on the front range who skied all of them would be stoked on Vail. But ask people who live in Summit what they think about Vail and most will not be too stoked on them. Especially people who remember before Vail bought Breck/Key.
May 22 2014 1:39PM
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snomaster
Posts: 3336 - Karma: 5,677
At first I was on the side of Powdr. But they seem overly stubborn after screwing up big time. Really what I want is for the town / customer base to simply have an operating ski resort. And I'm confused. A deal needs to happen.

Powdr has
made a terrible mistake
enormous opportunity to make a killing off the private sale of land/infrastructure at base of PCMR
an expensive uphill battle to do anything else
majority ownership of Snowbird
Woodward PC
deep pockets
many other resorts

Vail Corp has
lease rights for 2/3 of PCMR terrain
$24M annual lease for Canyons, & greatest potential to create park city mega resort
can connect to PCMR terrain from Canyons without purchasing/leasing any additional terrain
deeper pockets
very many other resorts

If Powdr holds steady and doesn't sell to Vail, the only thing I see happening is a larger woodward PC and uber crowded locals town hill. They will lose their family destination market share as guests flock to Canyons and Deer Valley... while milking up Snowbird revenues that just recently became profitable.
May 22 2014 3:10PM
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TotallyTrevor
Posts: 4379 - Karma: 26,359
03gadeI have yet to see someone come up with a legitimate reason why vail sucks MORE than powdr . I would personally like to hear from an actual employee


I've worked for both Vail Resorts and POWDR. Working for vail resorts wasn't cool. As a company overall I don't feel like they care about employees or giving back to the community. POWDR seems like a much better company. Happier employees, cooler resorts, and they seem to care about the people who are spending a SHIT load of money to use their facilities.

Go PCMR (although with that being said I won't be mad if PCMR is included on my pass in the coming years).
May 22 2014 3:22PM
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BK
Posts: 2353 - Karma: 1,122
First off people who are saying "oh don't worry, this is a media shit storm and the liklihood that PCMR is actually going to be forced to change operation are tripping, they will work it out" are kidding themselves about this. Vail is playing for keeps. You think they are throwing all this money at this lawsuit just to fuck with Park City a little bit, or get $9 million instead of $100,000 for the land in the coming years. Vail is interested in the real-estate, lodging, dining and everything that comes with a town resort like Park City. Park City has arguably better ski town infrastructure and charm than ANY of Vail resorts other spots in Colorado. Vail has major stakes in some of the businesses and real-estate at the bottom of their mountains in Colorado.

I haven't heard this suggested and don't really know the terrain but what if Vail connected the lifts they have access to at Park City with the Canyons with a tram or gondola FIRST, limiting PCMR to run a tiny resort at the bottom. That could stir things up too.

It was put best earlier in this thread when laying out that Vail will win if they control the top of Park City because strangling that makes the mountain extremely un attractive to a serious skier. Yeah if you ski park or are on the bunny hill their current terrain is fine, but without the rest of the mountain Vail could essentially suck Park City dry.

I live in Colorado and have skied Vail resorts every year for 8 years now and I can't say they piss me off or are a bad company in my experience. Skiing is for the rich and I accept the fact that things are expensive.

Conglomeration is EVERYWHERE in the world these days. Look at the airlines now. Don't think the government is gonna give a shit about this anytime soon. Look at how many choices you have for TV/Internet.

I will say though when someone monopolizes something you run out of choices. Sure the Vail pass is $700 now, but what if they own every desirable ski resort in the western U.S. in 15 years. Oops, the pass just went up to $9000.00, whatcha gonna do about it?
May 22 2014 3:22PM
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Willskiforfree
Posts: 929 - Karma: 3,158
I want to know what park city will do if they really don't have access to the upper mountain.. 3 kings and kings crown are all on the lower mountain so would they take the parks out or make them bigger ? Would they raise prices or drop them? Vail/taliskier can go die
May 22 2014 3:45PM
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dylhole
Posts: 2925 - Karma: 939
Vail will likely own PCMR, and no one but a handful of employees will notice a difference. Think if POWDR was a publicly traded company like Vail; the board would want Cummings fired in a heartbeat, especially if he refused to sell simply out of stubbornness.
May 22 2014 3:57PM
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N.L.
Posts: 2420 - Karma: 2,744
honestly, vail is paying 25 mil per year to lease the land that was previously being leased for 150k per year!!!!! WTF! money rules the world, money is the root of all evil.
May 22 2014 7:23PM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
Stud_MuffinIsn't there laws about companies like this monopolizing? Or is not until Vail owns enough resorts that they can raise the prices enough to knock out the competition like Powdr that they are considered a monopoly?


I believe there are laws to prevent such a thing happening if Vail were to truly achieve monopoly status.

Scaredwhiteboyhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monopoly

On the front range alone, Vail has Copper, Winter Park, and Loveland competing with it. As a destination resort, Vail has more competitors than I can name.



You are right, they do not yet currently have a total monopoly but Vail is well on it's way to that. They are certainly the closest thing to a monopoly in skiing. They own Afton Alps, Mount Brighton, Beaver Creek, Keystone, Breck, Vail, Northstar, Heavenly, Kirkwood, and have something in the works with resorts in Japan and the Alps. They also own many major 5 star resorts in and around these ski areas including a summer resort in WY. They are absolutely massive and growing every season exponentially.
May 22 2014 9:00PM
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jensen
Posts: 2575 - Karma: 1,250
Ribss.I believe there are laws to prevent such a thing happening if Vail were to truly achieve monopoly status.




You are right, they do not yet currently have a total monopoly but Vail is well on it's way to that. They are certainly the closest thing to a monopoly in skiing. They own Afton Alps, Mount Brighton, Beaver Creek, Keystone, Breck, Vail, Northstar, Heavenly, Kirkwood, and have something in the works with resorts in Japan and the Alps. They also own many major 5 star resorts in and around these ski areas including a summer resort in WY. They are absolutely massive and growing every season exponentially.


US Antitrust Legislation:

Sherman Act of 1890 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act
Clayton Act of 1914 -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Antitrust_Act
May 22 2014 9:31PM
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03gade
Posts: 856 - Karma: 3,263
pussyfooterEverybody is missing the point, the pass price is fucking irrelevant.


TotallyTrevorI've worked for both Vail Resorts and POWDR. Working for vail resorts wasn't cool. As a company overall I don't feel like they care about employees or giving back to the community. POWDR seems like a much better company. Happier employees, cooler resorts, and they seem to care about the people who are spending a SHIT load of money to use their facilities.

Go PCMR (although with that being said I won't be mad if PCMR is included on my pass in the coming years).


Thank You, anyone else actually want to chime in with some substance? Pussyfooter?

Also I know a lot of you haven't seen a map but all PCMR really owns is the halfpipe, that bottom portion of pick n shovel next to the half pipe and the area under the beginner lift, from what i understand at least. Its not even enough to call it a "east coast resort"
May 22 2014 10:32PM
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broto
Posts: 9039 - Karma: 25,658
well i sure as hell don't know what's going to happen to park city but it will be an interesting ride either way. rooting for powdr corp as i move to SLC for uni in the fall.
May 22 2014 10:54PM
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TaranItUp
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 802
I am moving to PC next year and am hoping to work at the resort next year, so it will be interesting to see how things work out.
May 22 2014 11:05PM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 546
ShredMasterPlusThen what is your point as to a negative besides that you don't like them.???


Vail doesn't seem to give a flying fuck about local business? I'm worried that if they move in they're going to take a scorched Earth approach and leave every local ski team or business that relies on the mountain out to dry.

"Sure, your team can train here. Gotta pay the corporate bullshit fee, though".
May 23 2014 1:20AM
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dylhole
Posts: 2925 - Karma: 939
SchmaelzleVail doesn't seem to give a flying fuck about local business? I'm worried that if they move in they're going to take a scorched Earth approach and leave every local ski team or business that relies on the mountain out to dry.

"Sure, your team can train here. Gotta pay the corporate bullshit fee, though".


It's not like those teams weren't paying PCMR... The everyday skier wont notice a difference if Vail does operate PCMR. Canyons on mountain operations hasn't changed. Still no lift lines, same restaurants, same grooming, same wind holds, etc. etc. Everyone is up in arms about this but in reality, it will effect very few of us.
May 23 2014 6:34PM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
dylholeIt's not like those teams weren't paying PCMR... The everyday skier wont notice a difference if Vail does operate PCMR. Canyons on mountain operations hasn't changed. Still no lift lines, same restaurants, same grooming, same wind holds, etc. etc. Everyone is up in arms about this but in reality, it will effect very few of us.


People are making Vail out to be some evil being hellbent on destroying skiing, but in reality that's not how it is. I don't think Vail should be allowed to get so big but in terms of everyday operations, not very much will be effected.
May 24 2014 4:43PM
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eheath
Posts: 61091 - Karma: 118,105
Ribss.People are making Vail out to be some evil being hellbent on destroying skiing, but in reality that's not how it is. I don't think Vail should be allowed to get so big but in terms of everyday operations, not very much will be effected.


I didn't really dislike vail until they took over canyons and have been trying to fuck pcmr since. I mean they filed a fucking eviction notice that had no legal standings, just to hurt pcmrs pass sales. Luckily all of vail's bullying backfired, pcmr had one of their best years in the past 10. Vail/Talisker has just pissed me off in general with this whole lawsuit bullshit.
May 24 2014 4:47PM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
pussyfooterI didn't really dislike vail until they took over canyons and have been trying to fuck pcmr since. I mean they filed a fucking eviction notice that had no legal standings, just to hurt pcmrs pass sales. Luckily all of vail's bullying backfired, pcmr had one of their best years in the past 10. Vail/Talisker has just pissed me off in general with this whole lawsuit bullshit.


I do agree that all this tomfoolery with PCMR is bullshit, but I just hate how people demonize Vail. I ski resorts owned by Vail and I purchase an Epic Pass regularly, and in terms of on hill improvements and investments Vail does a very good job. They also employ a huge amount of Tahoe locals around North Lake and allow you to climb the corporate ladder much more easily than other places. All in all, you are right, Vail has been somewhat scummy over all of this. That does not mean they will ruin PCMR.
May 24 2014 4:56PM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 546
dylholeIt's not like those teams weren't paying PCMR... The everyday skier wont notice a difference if Vail does operate PCMR. Canyons on mountain operations hasn't changed. Still no lift lines, same restaurants, same grooming, same wind holds, etc. etc. Everyone is up in arms about this but in reality, it will effect very few of us.


Canyons patrol should not continue as-is. Their park crew gets continually fucked by funding and how little management cares about the park there.
May 24 2014 6:26PM
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LOLZfajitas
Posts: 393 - Karma: 1,054
pussyfooterI didn't really dislike vail until they took over canyons and have been trying to fuck pcmr since. I mean they filed a fucking eviction notice that had no legal standings, just to hurt pcmrs pass sales. Luckily all of vail's bullying backfired, pcmr had one of their best years in the past 10. Vail/Talisker has just pissed me off in general with this whole lawsuit bullshit.


Ribss.I do agree that all this tomfoolery with PCMR is bullshit, but I just hate how people demonize Vail. I ski resorts owned by Vail and I purchase an Epic Pass regularly, and in terms of on hill improvements and investments Vail does a very good job. They also employ a huge amount of Tahoe locals around North Lake and allow you to climb the corporate ladder much more easily than other places. All in all, you are right, Vail has been somewhat scummy over all of this. That does not mean they will ruin PCMR.


see the problem is the younger people don't understand the actual politics of this deal, and how the end result is going to hurt the ski resort community as a whole, and that is the most unfortunate part about it, everyone just see's it as one pass for all
May 24 2014 6:37PM
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TotallyTrevor
Posts: 4379 - Karma: 26,359
kinda reminds me of the Warren Miller Entertainment and Level 1 thing a few years back
May 26 2014 12:34AM
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03gade
Posts: 856 - Karma: 3,263
pussyfooterI didn't really dislike vail until they took over canyons and have been trying to fuck pcmr since. I mean they filed a fucking eviction notice that had no legal standings, just to hurt pcmrs pass sales. Luckily all of vail's bullying backfired, pcmr had one of their best years in the past 10. Vail/Talisker has just pissed me off in general with this whole lawsuit bullshit.


This is a valid stance. Unrelated, has anyone been through more name colors than you?
May 27 2014 8:56PM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
TotallyTrevorkinda reminds me of the Warren Miller Entertainment and Level 1 thing a few years back


You really think PCMR is as small compared to Vail as Level 1 is to Warren Miller?
Jun 2 2014 4:04AM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
TotallyTrevorkinda reminds me of the Warren Miller Entertainment and Level 1 thing a few years back


You really think PCMR is as small compared to Vail as Level 1 is to Warren Miller?
Jun 2 2014 4:06AM
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arnie_grape
Posts: 3428 - Karma: 11,371
Ribss.You really think PCMR is as small compared to Vail as Level 1 is to Warren Miller?


well... he didn't say "this is the exact same thing as the level 1 wme thing a few years back"
Jun 2 2014 8:52AM
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dozerr
Posts: 4007 - Karma: 403
Jun 2 2014 6:38PM
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Age
Posts: 591 - Karma: 179
This dispute is something that really intrigues me, given that I am generally referred to as a bloodsucker, leech, maggot, scum, ambulance chaser...yes, I am a lawyer. Admittedly, I practice in Australia so the laws regarding leases/renewal of leases would obviously be different, but the basic concepts are quite similar.

The fact that PCMR missed out on renewing their lease is pretty ridiculous on their part. If you run a multi million dollar company, yet you cannot manage to lodge a simple, one page document to the lessor, well, then I worry about what else you are forgetting.

That said, I don't understand the rationale behind Vail's refusal to grant the renewal of lease based on the existing relationship. I am also surprised the court did not grant an automatic renewal based on past conduct, but I suppose that is one of the differences in the laws between the two countries. That said, the best tenant a land lord can have is one that pays the rent. At the moment, Vail is paying legal fees, along with any other fees in relation to the land, for an end that seems somewhat unclear. Surely, Vail would be best suited to either negotiate a new deal which increases the rent price or just offer to buy the land at the bottom of the hill.

Interesting stuff, can't wait to see what happens
Jun 2 2014 7:58PM
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TaranItUp
Posts: 1313 - Karma: 802
According to the latest ski industry news letter, PCMR will run next year normally with the same management. There is still a lot to be handled in between the two companies and until things are settled things will run as usual.
Jun 2 2014 8:25PM
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Turd.Ferguson
Posts: 1437 - Karma: 2,713
robotdnaDo they have the right to dismantle the lifts if they are indeed kicked out? I mean, I totally would try if I was PCMR, but is it legal?

Also ski resort politics are silly.


grey area, its technically removeable so PCMR can do whatever they please but i think their gonna be running for a few more years before any significant changes occur
Jun 3 2014 9:23PM
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Mr.LemonPie
Posts: 4100 - Karma: 1,625
Ageoffer to buy the land at the bottom of the hill.


Rob Katz would cream his pants if PCMR would sell him the base area.
Jun 4 2014 1:21PM
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EvanMeyer
Posts: 3803 - Karma: 3,232
DeebieSkeebiesit's whatever. im just gonna ski bird from now on


didnt part of the bird get bought out by PC tho so technically vail will have partial ownership of the bird? I could be wrong on that but I thought I read something recently about the bird selling partial ownership to PC
Jun 4 2014 3:53PM
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eheath
Posts: 61091 - Karma: 118,105
EvanMeyerdidnt part of the bird get bought out by PC tho so technically vail will have partial ownership of the bird? I could be wrong on that but I thought I read something recently about the bird selling partial ownership to PC


The cummings family bought a controlling share, not Powdr, they specifically did that so it wouldn't be involved in the lawsuit.
Jun 4 2014 4:04PM
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Schmaelzle
Posts: 272 - Karma: 546
AgeThis dispute is something that really intrigues me, given that I am generally referred to as a bloodsucker, leech, maggot, scum, ambulance chaser...yes, I am a lawyer. Admittedly, I practice in Australia so the laws regarding leases/renewal of leases would obviously be different, but the basic concepts are quite similar.

The fact that PCMR missed out on renewing their lease is pretty ridiculous on their part. If you run a multi million dollar company, yet you cannot manage to lodge a simple, one page document to the lessor, well, then I worry about what else you are forgetting.

That said, I don't understand the rationale behind Vail's refusal to grant the renewal of lease based on the existing relationship. I am also surprised the court did not grant an automatic renewal based on past conduct, but I suppose that is one of the differences in the laws between the two countries. That said, the best tenant a land lord can have is one that pays the rent. At the moment, Vail is paying legal fees, along with any other fees in relation to the land, for an end that seems somewhat unclear. Surely, Vail would be best suited to either negotiate a new deal which increases the rent price or just offer to buy the land at the bottom of the hill.

Interesting stuff, can't wait to see what happens



It's worse than just PCMR failing to renew on time. If I'm remembering details correctly Powdr laid off the person who would normally handle the lease renewal and didn't think to ensure that responsibility got transferred to, oh I dunno, ANYONE else.

But yeah. Vail paid/is paying way too much money for Canyons. I'm pretty sure their end goal has always been Canyons + PCMR and not to just strike a deal with Powdr.
Jun 4 2014 5:53PM
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busterburns
Posts: 485 - Karma: 539
B
R
I
G
H
T
O
N


Or ski at a wallmart style ski area?
Jun 4 2014 6:27PM
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SkiBum.
Posts: 3597 - Karma: 3,895
Keep an eye open for Thursday's ruling. Will be an important one...
Jun 16 2014 8:38PM
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drumbumocdp
Posts: 3226 - Karma: 1,078
I work for Vail. I'd say all the things I don't like about it, but I would surely be killed
Jun 17 2014 11:18PM
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eheath
Posts: 61091 - Karma: 118,105
http://fox13now.com/2014/06/19/judge-grants-eviction-of-park-city-mountain-resort/


judge signed the eviction notice.


But he ordered them to go into mediation until august 27th. I sure hope they figure something out, shit could get really weird.
Jun 19 2014 2:44PM
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Willskiforfree
Posts: 929 - Karma: 3,158
pussyfooterhttp://fox13now.com/2014/06/19/judge-grants-eviction-of-park-city-mountain-resort/


judge signed the eviction notice.


But he ordered them to go into mediation until august 27th. I sure hope they figure something out, shit could get really weird.


Just saw that too , this is getting bad
Jun 19 2014 4:55PM
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caucasian_chad
Posts: 4078 - Karma: 3,625
Lol at all you guys saying how this is good because you get 1748483 resorts for one low price. Quality not quantity. You likely won't even visit half of them in a season. Most of Vail's resorts have mediocre to poor terrain. If an Epic pass was $100, I'd still much rather have my $1000 Big Sky pass and shred sick big mountain.
Jun 20 2014 3:10AM
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Kooky_Lukey
Posts: 1002 - Karma: 1,966
Arguably the biggest story in the ski industry ever and no one is talking about it?

I thought this was Newschoolers...
Jun 20 2014 10:46PM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
pussyfooterhttp://fox13now.com/2014/06/19/judge-grants-eviction-of-park-city-mountain-resort/


judge signed the eviction notice.


But he ordered them to go into mediation until august 27th. I sure hope they figure something out, shit could get really weird.


Yeah man I honestly didn't think it was gonna go this far.
Jun 21 2014 1:51AM
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jensen
Posts: 2575 - Karma: 1,250
jensenBased on the unofficialnetworks article it sounds to me like there is a real possibility that PCMR will not be able to operate the upper slopes for the 14-15 season. If Vail is found in favor of the unlawful detainer counterclaim on June 19 they can and will move for summary judgment to evict PCMR (which they will likely get if they win June 19). If this happens PCMR can then appeal the decision in order to gain rights BACK to the upper area. In the meantime they will not be able to operate up top until they win an appeal.


called it. this is huge, for sure. all of you playing this off as no big deal for PCMR, pull your heads out of your ass. PCMR has a very real chance of not operating this year.
Jun 24 2014 1:44PM
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danbrown
Posts: 11932 - Karma: 21,775
jensencalled it. this is huge, for sure. all of you playing this off as no big deal for PCMR, pull your heads out of your ass. PCMR has a very real chance of not operating this year.


prolly still be skiing 3 kings n pick
Jun 24 2014 1:56PM
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Tanner-D
Posts: 2061 - Karma: 4,116
caucasian_chadLol at all you guys saying how this is good because you get 1748483 resorts for one low price. Quality not quantity. You likely won't even visit half of them in a season. Most of Vail's resorts have mediocre to poor terrain. If an Epic pass was $100, I'd still much rather have my $1000 Big Sky pass and shred sick big mountain.


I understand the hate on Vail for sure; however, Kirkwood is a good example of a mountain that was recently bought by Vail which has not been degraded in quality as far as I can tell. The mountain has a few more slow signs and now it actually opens on time on pow days. Using Kirkwood as a comparison may not be the best since Kwood is kind of unique mountain though.
Jun 24 2014 2:37PM
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eheath
Posts: 61091 - Karma: 118,105
jensencalled it. this is huge, for sure. all of you playing this off as no big deal for PCMR, pull your heads out of your ass. PCMR has a very real chance of not operating this year.


I mean, there is still a good chance things will be okay next season, its the next season thats mostly questionable.

Worst case senario, which I'm pretty sure no one wants even talisker, it that pcmr takes some lifts off the mountain and they operate a base area with woodward, etc. The amount of land they can operate on is very small, like none of their current lifts top to bottom are within their land they own.

Anyways, its still a little early to conclude that pcmr is fucked. They've always had a chance of not operating, but after hearing a ton of statements from both sides, the goal is to operate but the question is how they operate. Does pcmr control all of the land? Does talisker buy the base? Maybe pcmr operates the base area while vail "operates" the lifts but together with pcmr? They realize that 25% of utah's ski traffic goes to pcmr, it will hurt the entire community/industry if pcmr does not operate, so nobody wants that.
Jun 24 2014 2:41PM
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Ryanvdonk
Posts: 12808 - Karma: 1,945
one pass to rule them all

Jun 24 2014 4:58PM
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SpookyCat
Posts: 1232 - Karma: -2,617
jensencalled it. this is huge, for sure. all of you playing this off as no big deal for PCMR, pull your heads out of your ass. PCMR has a very real chance of not operating this year.



You called it alright... just like everyone else with common sense that payed the slightest bit of attention. This wasn't up to debate about who was going to win the lawsuit. Everyone knew PC fucked up and there was no question about it. This isn't a massive deal for PCMR and they've been planning for this eventuality for a while. If anything, PCMR will successfully change their main focus to a different demographic since the guy who runs PCMR is also a founding partner of Woodward and knows (or knows people) who know how to do this shit.

At first it's going to suck but I guarentee you within 4 years, PCMR will become the nation's capital for action sports/ action sports training. Not to mention they can still keep most of the racing since they own the land where most of the racing took place on... and the local head quarters and facilities.

Anyone thinking PCMR will not operate because of this should pull their head out of their ass. That will not happen. Powdr has plenty of money to keep it going.
Jun 24 2014 6:23PM
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Ribss.
Posts: 3442 - Karma: 3,344
It's all fun and games until someone gets served an eviction notice.

Any news?
Jun 27 2014 5:49AM
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SkiBum.
Posts: 3597 - Karma: 3,895
Ribss.It's all fun and games until someone gets served an eviction notice.

Any news?



Next court date is 8/27. Mediation ordered before then.
Jul 1 2014 12:36PM
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