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Am I a Screwd with my Feet? Boot Question

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50Kal
Posts: 2826 - Karma: 5,367
So I have an issue with my feet that has been on going for the last 3 winters.  Cold toes. I am doing all the standard Cold toes things one does to prevent.
Wear Super thin wool socks.
Have Custom foot beds.
I have been fitted well by a professional and modify boot for personal use.
My boot fits well except it gives me cold toes.

I can only think of a few things I have not tried.
Cayenne pepper in sock.
Intuition liner.
More expansion of the toe box.
Electronic foot warmers.

Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks NSrs and always +K for helpful responses.
Nov 19 2013 11:40PM
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Birddogmurray
Posts: 239 - Karma: 300
I usually just use adhesive footwarmers and it seems to work.
Nov 19 2013 11:51PM
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phiberawptik
Posts: 69 - Karma: 9
What kind of boot are you in now? I have never been able to keep warm in stock liners.

Intuition has definitely improved my experience.

Do your toes feel cramped at all?

Worse comes to worse and you just can't keep your toes warm, and tried everything. There is no shame in getting warmers.
Nov 20 2013 12:25AM
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Avifarer
Posts: 5926 - Karma: 598
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$250 and worth every penny
Nov 20 2013 1:02AM
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shr@gler
Posts: 1233 - Karma: 912
Best things you can do!
1. Dry liners: Make sure every night you take them out of the shells and be completely dry.
2. Fresh socks. Change them from the ones you drove to he mtn in.
3 warm liners before putting on even by the car heater.
4. Ski for 15 mins, take of boots for 10 mins, then go ski again! As silly as this sounds it helps immensely as your feet willl get blood pumping and liners will warm and soften. Once your toes regain feeling you should be able to retain that the rest of the day.
5 Boot warmers. I find Sidas to be the best but they are not cheap.
6. Foot powder. too help keep feet from sweating.

Try all these things in order! That way you can eliminate what works and doesn't.
After that the only thing to do would be see another boot fitter to get an analysis from a different perspective. There may still be a pressure point cutting blood flow or you may need adjustment to your footbed. Also intuitions could be a good idea.
good luck.

Nov 20 2013 2:26AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6638 - Karma: 10,532
These are really good ideas. Even if you do all of the above, there are simply some stock liners that are not that warm. Specifically any boots that are 98mm wide. These shells are so narrow that in order to provide space for the foot, the first thing that is taken out by the manufacturer is the majority of the insulation- especially in the toes. So, if you are in a 98mm boot, I would suggest upgrading to some sort of Intuition liner that will work with your shell.


Nov 20 2013 3:10AM
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50Kal
Posts: 2826 - Karma: 5,367
Alright. Got some stuff to try. Thanks NSrs.
Nov 20 2013 9:19AM
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Lemuel
Posts: 14477 - Karma: 10,515
I don't understand this. Shouldn't manufacturers be making 98mm for people with narrow feet? Why are they trying to provide space for the foot, isn't that what wider lasts are for?
Nov 20 2013 11:50AM
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snurfsup
Posts: 96 - Karma: 135
intuitions for the win! they are amazingly warm for what they appear to be
Nov 20 2013 2:41PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7097 - Karma: 17,017
I'm sure onenerdy can add to this but I'll give you my viewpoint. Generally the 98mm last represents the higher performance shell in a line up. In that type of boot a thinner stiffer liner is desirable. A thicker liner could be used but it would just end up packing out as the shell would compress it. To avoid this squishy packing out feel a firmer thinner line is used to give the same eventual fit. In comparison a 102 mm last boot will prob have a much thicker comfy liner in it that won't perform as well as that is what that customer is perceived to want. Hope this makes sense.
Nov 20 2013 3:00PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6638 - Karma: 10,532
Let me explain a bit more in detail, as my original post wasn't that well developed. Let's start with our Hawx boot, which is a 100mm last. The internal volume of this shell is very conducive to having a liner construction that offers a great blend of performance materials and insulation (foams, fleeces, etc). Simply put, there is enough space in the shell to offer both.

Let's move now to the Redster Pro, which is a 98mm last. This drop of 2mm represents a big loss of internal volume, which now means you now have less space in the shell to build a liner. If you put the same liner construction of the Hawx (but lasted for Redster Pro) in the Redster Pro shell, the boot would feel like a 95mm boot and simply too tight for most people to wear. So, to make it feel like a 98mm boot, we have to take some higher volume (warmer) materials out of the liner. The Redster Pro liner uses super high end but thinner materials. While high end, they are still thinner and therefore allow the foot to sit closer to the shell. This delivers more performance but also sacrifices a bit of warmth when compared to a 100mm boot. There simply isn't the space available inside the shell to offer the same degree of warmth that a Hawx boot provides.

Let's now move to Redster World Cup, which is our 95mm last for pure race applications. This liner is absolutely bare bones in terms of insulation. The materials in this liner are selected to provide optimum snow feel, terrain feedback, and foot hold. Normal "thick" insulation is completely removed because it provides too much cushioning and keeps the foot further away from the shell, thus reducing snow feel and terrain feedback that the racer desperately needs.

As Tom said, you could make a Hawx boot with an ultra thick liner so it felt like a 98mm boot, but then it would simply pack out after a while and become sloppy.
Nov 21 2013 5:59AM
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Poikenz
Posts: 1406 - Karma: 3,131
I'm trying to understand this, basically the liner takes up a percentage of your overall boot, lets say 25% for ease of calculations

So if your overall boot volume (not just last) was 100 cm^2 (again for ease) then the liner would be 25 cm^2

But at 98 cm^2 the liner is only 24.5cm^2 not sure if my little analogy worked properly.

Another question though, I am currently in a 98 with a low volume liner, does that mean that I will have a better fit than someone in a 100mm boot because their liner will eventually pack out more? Or simply that their liner starts out feeling thicker but packs out to give them the same overall feel?
Nov 21 2013 10:29AM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,296
I ride 95 last EDT Dobermann's that have a couple steel shanks inserted into the sole that are just about the coldest things on the planet. I started wearing these things and went from complete agony on sub freezing days to warm and toasty all the time.

The only downside is the constant funny looks and questions about them from other people.
Nov 21 2013 9:43PM
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a_pla5tic_bag
Posts: 9210 - Karma: 5,357
they're like boot wetsuits.

OP you'll have to remember that if there's going to be a cold place on your body it'll be you're feet. They're the bottom of you, blood gets stuck in veins and has more trouble returning to the heart from there. Even though your skiing so the muscles will help move it along and whatnot but still. Make sure that if you have some sort of 45 degree type buckle or one that goes over the top of your foot that it's not cranked too much as to impede blood flow. or maybe open it up on the chairlift. Also dress warmer maybe.
Nov 21 2013 11:38PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
Cold feet is usually a sign of boots that are too big, or don't fit properly. You end up cranking the buckles down, causing pressure points, and cutting off circulation.

Also, DONT WEAR THICK SOCKS. They pack out liners, bunch, and help with the cutting off of circulation. If you ski boots don't fit barefoot, they are too big. You should be wearing a liner sock.

Intuition liners kick butt, and are a good way to swallow up extra volume temporarily in a pair of boots that are too big.

TL;DR: your boots are probably too big.
Nov 22 2013 3:00AM
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50Kal
Posts: 2826 - Karma: 5,367
So after a long talk today with my bootfitter and some early season skiing here in Minnesota, I've come to the conclusion that it is a toe circulation issue and in no way a Bootfitting issue. (To completely honest Ive never had a better fitting ski boot then the one I own now).

After 21 years of living in Minnesota and having frostbite more times than I can count, I'm making the assumption of poor circulation in my toes. The rest my foot was complety fine today. Just cold toes constantly causing me to go in side and warm my toes.

I'm considering the idea of the Boot glove a try as it probably one of the few things I haven't tried. Are there different thicknesses are they all at the same? Is one companies better than another?

It could also be a inadequate liner issue but with intuition liners going for $180 and no promise for my feet to stay warm I think I'm gonna just go to the Electronic foot warmers with the hopes that it keeps my toes warm.
What is the better for Boot heaters? The usual Hotronics heaters or Sidas foot heaters? I see the Hotronics ones all the time but the Sidas one look good as well. Anyone familiar with them?
http://www.sidassport.com/en/our-products/winter-sports/pro-set-pack-83-2.html

Thanks for all the information guys.
Nov 22 2013 11:51PM
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Avifarer
Posts: 5926 - Karma: 598
Ya i wouldnt bother with the intuitions to be honest with you. I also have very bad circulation/frostbite issues as well. I have had full tilts, now wearing salomons and to be honest never noticed that the intuitions were that much warmer. I got my frostbite in my intuitions. Dry guy boot gloves are all that i have seen.
I use hotronics and i love them. Our shop started carrying sidas this year. Our boss has used both and he says he prefers the hotronics. Sidas is a bit more of a sleeker system, small lighter batteries. And sidas uses lithium ion batteries and hotronics uses nickel copper?
Nov 22 2013 11:59PM
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shr@gler
Posts: 1233 - Karma: 912
Great you talked to your bootfitter! I would recommend you return to my list and try everything on it!^^
Him just saying its a circulation issue might be a bit of a cop out. Yes you need blood pumping to your toes to keep feeling. With that in mind keeping your core temperature up is vital. So layer properly otherwise your body will take heat away from your extremities to keep your organs warm. If the blood aint pumping there, heating numb toes wont make them feel better. boots off then back on will work better.
After that make sure no pressure is being put on your instep. This is where an intuition could be good as there is no plastic running over the instep with the liner. With the stock transfire liner a pocket could be ground at your instep to take away pressure if required. Keep in mind that blood flow can also be cut off at the shin and around the ankles so again its bootfitter assessment to find this out. You should take note of your feet when you take them out of your boots to see what may be inflamed. your phone can be a good tool by taking a picture of them when you take your feet out.
The sidas warmers are better because they are lithium batteries and have a flexible heating element. The hottronics element is hard and might not feel nice under your feet. but they are cheaper.
I am sure that you can tell that I have also suffered these issues and now have it under control. It is however, something that you will have to be vigilant about to achieve success.

Nov 23 2013 6:52AM
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