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March, 2024

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NEW FREESTYLE PRODUCT questions

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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
Hi,

A team of product designers are developing a product for freestyle skiers whereby the skier is slowed down rapidly when landing a jump facing forwards, in the following positions:

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Points to note:
-The skier will not be slowed down during normal upright skiing.
-The product will not hinder skiing backwards.
-The product will only work on groomed pistes ie. Snow Park.
-The product will deploy/work automatically.
-The product targets novice freestyle skiers.
-The product is a safety device.

Questions:
-Could you see yourself using such a device?
-Would you prefer the product to be integrated or bought as an add on feature of the ski?
-Do you think the product should be hidden or visible to other skiers?
Any other input would be much appreciated and we are open to all suggestions.

We are happy to answer question to clarify what we are trying to achieve, to help provoke discussion. And we will do our best to answer all questions that conform to the boundaries of our confidentiality.

We want to know what you think of the concept, so that we can incorporate some real user opinions into our product brief.

Thanks
Mar 18 2013 9:11AM
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.Asain-Skiier
Posts: 3708 - Karma: 977
wat
Mar 18 2013 9:17AM
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BlackcountryBill
Posts: 955 - Karma: 576
U high?
Mar 18 2013 9:25AM
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ilikedolphins
Posts: 129 - Karma: 120
just make something that prevents you from getting buttfucked when you land in this position instead
Mar 18 2013 9:26AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
What would you like me explain?
Mar 18 2013 9:29AM
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Afronaut
Posts: 190 - Karma: 558
i don't think this will work because if you just ski a little backseat you will be slowed down...this makes no sense to me
Mar 18 2013 9:33AM
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Mr.Sloth
Posts: 5091 - Karma: 13,469
Talk to Heartcarve
Mar 18 2013 9:37AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
We intend only to slow the skier down on a backseat landing. However, 'excessive' backseat leaning would cause the skier to be slowed down. Our target market are novice freestyle skiers and would therefore not expect the user to be advanced enough to be doing any butter tricks or sweeping backseat jump coming off the kicker. Thank you for your comment.
Mar 18 2013 9:42AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
What is his background?
Mar 18 2013 9:47AM
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scarsimd
Posts: 668 - Karma: 773
no real market in my opinion
Mar 18 2013 9:56AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
What make you say that? I am open to discussion.
Mar 18 2013 9:58AM
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scarsimd
Posts: 668 - Karma: 773
landing in the positions you have shown would result in a low impact fall! Therefore it is not a massive deal and therefore i think you have unfortunately tried to find a problem where there may not be one. There is also an issue of price as most skiers are always running short of cash so there is another issue.
Let me know what you think
Mar 18 2013 10:01AM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15949 - Karma: 9,429
How will it slow you down and how exactly will it be triggered. I can just imagine someone doing a tail press, accidentally triggering it and eating shit because his skis suddenly block
Mar 18 2013 10:02AM
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TChronic
Posts: 287 - Karma: 82
I think the market for this "product" is very limited.
1. it would really only apply to those just entering a park and who are exclusively hitting jumps (a very small market considering people who only ski jumps is few to none. and nowadays kids can learn 3's and 5's in a week.)
2. To Malcom's point if the skier hits a rail (especially an urban rail who as we know kids who hit urban rails tend to fall off early and be backseat) could catch on the "product" and fall pretty hard.
3. I don't know many skiers who are willing (good enough) to hit jumps and cant recover from landing backseat.
I think the product is a good idea, but more for general beginner and intermediate skiing, maybe a product that works like a brake on a rollerblade that when the rider puts pressure on their heel it slows down the ski. Just a though, but i think the park applications wouldn't benefit the skier.
Mar 18 2013 10:14AM
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ScuffDUFF
Posts: 2027 - Karma: 143
Is this shit foreal? I don't even understand how that would work, or see why anyone would want something like that.
Mar 18 2013 10:17AM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,893
Hahahaha! That would suck.

My guess is that they are trying to come up with something that helps prevent blown ACL's from landing in the backseat. One school of thoughts is that leveraging yourself back up from your back at speed is what causes a lot of ACL tears. Slowing the skis would allow the skiers own momentum to assist is standing back up and decrease the torque on the knees. It's interesting and I'd definitely be interested in seeing how they plan on pulling it off.

... but to OP, this is most likely going to be perceived as being like the CADs of freestyle. Anyone who has them will most likely want them to be as invisible as possible.
Mar 18 2013 10:22AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186

For us, the issue is not with the impact of the fall because our target market is novice freestyle skiers, who are like to be doing smaller jumps. Our concern is with the implications of a novice skier landing in this unstable backseat landing position, because it can lead to other potentially more serious injuries.

At the moment unit cost could vary quite a lot depending on which route we go down. But thank you for letting us know, we will keep price in mind.

Does this answer your query?

Mar 18 2013 10:23AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
Thanks for your input. Some interesting points we will keep in mind.
Mar 18 2013 10:26AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186

We have done some of surveys and the general consensus is that people would like this product to be invisible. This is part of our product brief requirements.

Mar 18 2013 10:31AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186

Unfortunately, I cannot disclose how the product will slow the skier down due to IP. The trigger is automatic and will result due to certain perimeters being passed. Tail presses are likely to be affected yes, but we would not expect novice skiers to be doing these sorts of tricks. What do you think?
Do you think the slowing mechanism should be adjustable?

Mar 18 2013 10:43AM
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scarsimd
Posts: 668 - Karma: 773
i see that you are trying to eliminate the potential injuries but i think that you are risking more serious injuries, if they are 'unstable' and suddenly they slow down incredibly quickly then they will go face first into the snow.. i think there are serious limitations!
i dont mean to sound like a hater but i just think that you should know some of the issues that i can see so that you can improve the product or start another venture before you sink too much money into it.
Mar 18 2013 10:50AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
Thanks for the feedback so far, there are already some points that we had not yet thoroughly considered. Its in the nature of design for designer to get attached to an idea and it takes some real user input to turn things around and actual make a product successful, and work for the people that use them.

We welcome any ideas and potential solutions with an open mind.
Mar 18 2013 10:50AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
No problem, I hear what you are saying. We have done some testing and know the parameters that should be set in order to stop the skier from falling face first into the snow. We have being using computational fluid dynamics (CFD) experiments to ensure that each design iteration we come up with adheres to these parameters. From the CFD experiments on the current design, we can ensure that the drag force exerted on the skier will be enough to get the skier to stand back upright, but will always cut out before the skier can fall forward.
Mar 18 2013 11:00AM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15949 - Karma: 9,429
I can only think of all the new ways people will destroy themselves. Like what if someone triggers the skis going switch? They'll smash the back of their heads. I just don't see this catching on. Kids can usually ski pretty decently by the time they start hitting jumps. IMO they're better off learning how to fall correctly than having something automatically stomp their landings for them.
Mar 18 2013 11:18AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
Your 1st point:
Do you think this should be something that the user can remove quite easily once its had its use.

Your 2nd point:
If the product was adjustable so that the slowing function could disabled/enabled during the user's day on the slopes this would resolve the issue?

Could you elaborate on your third point, I don't quite understand?

Mar 18 2013 11:18AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
The braking system will only work in one direction, so we would hope that the skier would not be affected when skiing backwards.
Okay, I see your point. In your opinion then, do you think that this product could potentially be useful for learners that are not into freestyle?
Mar 18 2013 11:32AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
Keep the comments coming we're in the office all day and are anxious for some feedback. Some good stuff so far!
Mar 18 2013 11:49AM
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fortyvalve
Posts: 1442 - Karma: 1,570
say i was in a jump line, went off one and landed in the minimal backseat trigger amount for the brake, would i notice the difference? i definitely wouldn't want an unexpected speed change to cause me to knuckle it
Mar 18 2013 11:58AM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
The drag force felt by the user would be depended on the position they were in. In a position where the skier was leaning backwards minimally there would be very little drag force slowing them down. In a position where the ski was a much more extreme backseat position, the drag force would be much higher.

The slowing mechanism would commence on landing, so the likelihood of knuckling the jump is minimal. However, because of the reduction in speed on the first jump, the skier would have to reassess whether they had enough speed for the next jump.
Mar 18 2013 12:15PM
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FroesenSkeeze
Posts: 638 - Karma: 673
Beginners need to learn how to ski properly. These assists are only making it worse in my opinion. If you learn to land backseat because you won't ever wash out, you won't be very happy when you use a normal pair of skis.

Instead, your company should start making outerwear with air bags. If you slip out on rails, they will deploy, and you can ride away safely on a cloud.

...Just kidding. Delaying or hindering the learning process isn't a very good idea.
Mar 18 2013 12:22PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
It's a jacket with spikes on the back, isn't it.
Mar 18 2013 12:46PM
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Mr.Huck
Posts: 6096 - Karma: 14,893
I think it is actually a hook that sticks out of the top of your jacket. The other end is attached to the waistband of your underwear. If you backslap, you won't blow your knees and you will get an instant hoodie.
Mar 18 2013 12:52PM
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blindside
Posts: 5619 - Karma: 1,199
Your business model is riddled with problematic assumptions about beginner freestyle skiers. Progression in the park can happen rapidly, and most beginners will want to start attempting tricks that are incompatible with this products design. Also, there are many instances when a skier may find themselves in that backseat position aside from landing a jump and slowing down/stopping would not be desirable. Also, learning to ski with such an unnatural handicap could negatively impact progression as well as one's skiing once the device is removed.

Technical issues aside, I think the concept is unbelievably lame, and goes against the entire freestyle philosophy. Skiers need to be free and as unrestrained by equipment as possible to fully immerse themselves in the experience. This device mitigates the connection between skier and snow, and I don't believe any potential benefits can outweigh such an obstacle.

I don't think anybody will want this product because it's painfully uncool and I would be embarrassed for anyone using it. Don't try to fix what is not broken.
Mar 18 2013 1:00PM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
You have a valid point. However, our argument would be that the severity of injury out weighs the negative affects on learning.
Maybe we could incorporate, something that allows the user to disable the braking system, so it is only used when trying a trick for the first time.

Nice idea, unfortunately we don't have strong links with garment making companies in china.
Mar 18 2013 1:01PM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
Unfortunately not. :]
Mar 18 2013 1:05PM
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bdot
Posts: 20 - Karma: 16
Is it mechanical or are there electronic components to it?

Where on the ski will it be and how much will it weigh?

Could it be accidentally triggered by tail tap on a barrel/log? Or by coming off a rail early?

The idea doesn't seem awful, but I think it would be very hard to implement in a way that doesn't change the skiing. It reminds me of that snowboard brake.

Mar 18 2013 1:06PM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
We are looking to reduce the affect of braking in those situation where it is not desirable, unfortunately I cannot express how without divulging our IP information.

Although we may disagree on the technical function of the product, I think your take on freestyle philosophy has potentially got some truth in it. It could be a good idea for us to do some mind mapping, using your perspective.


Mar 18 2013 1:22PM
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Mattsaff
Posts: 673 - Karma: 614
this would never work.

prove me wrong
Mar 18 2013 1:28PM
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Rparr
Posts: 5350 - Karma: 42,139
Let's say you come untucked midair from whatever it is you're doing, table-top mid air, and then come down on your side/back/face/front. This mechanism wouldn't do ANYTHING for you in these situations.

In most crashes that result in injury, this is how it happens. You won't be landing on your skis.

I just don't see how this would help with anything but what would have been a washed out backseat landing.
Mar 18 2013 1:35PM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
The mechanism is mechanical and could add some weight some unbalanced weight to the ski, but not a substantial amount that would affect rotational tricks, or balancing on a rail.

It could potentially interfere if the skier wanted to come off a rail early.

Which snowboard brake are you referring to?

Thanks for your comment, some things to consider.
Mar 18 2013 1:41PM
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Laurent.
Posts: 10054 - Karma: 25,277
I just always carry a 10kg Danforth anchor with me, it's attached to me with a 5m rope.

Whenever I need to stop quickly I deploy it. I already patented the idea, you can buy it from me.

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Mar 18 2013 1:44PM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15949 - Karma: 9,429
Is it a brake behind the bindings that only touches the snow when the ski flexes enough? Angled so that it slices through the snow going switch?
Mar 18 2013 1:46PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
Anchor away boys! We can't let her drift into the rocks!
Mar 18 2013 1:46PM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
I understand your point and in these situations the mechanism would not help the skier. However, we are looking to reduce the likelihood of a specific injury, which is not caused by situations you have described.
Mar 18 2013 1:49PM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
haha, unfortunately I can't find the patent for that.
Mar 18 2013 1:53PM
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Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
what's next? getting kids to rope up when they're at the playground?
Mar 18 2013 1:53PM
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Laurent.
Posts: 10054 - Karma: 25,277
I have another patent for that. Put them in a climbing harness, affix tightly, the lack of dexterity in kids hands makes it unremovable for them.

Then attach a rope to the harness and the other end to a 10kg Danforth Anchor. Deploy the anchor just far enough from the climbing apparatuses so they can only look at them.

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Mar 18 2013 2:00PM
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cope+
Posts: 763 - Karma: 870
This is stupid
Mar 18 2013 2:01PM
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SkiTheYeast
Posts: 2310 - Karma: 392
why not just ski, and not be a pussy.
Mar 18 2013 2:01PM
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mattshuttonspd
Posts: 37 - Karma: 186
I will be out of the office until tomorrow, but will continue to reply to comments as soon as I get return home.

Thanks for all the comments so far, it has triggered some insightful conversations, keep them coming.
Mar 18 2013 2:02PM
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Rparr
Posts: 5350 - Karma: 42,139
Does anybody remember that kid who obliterated his heel because he put one of these in SAND as an anchor for a banshee bungee and it shot straight at him?

What an idiot: http://www.local15tv.com/news/local/story/Banshee-Bungee-Toying-with-Danger/ErzRbbnIj0i9h7AbN6RnCA.cspx
Mar 18 2013 2:03PM
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