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An ethical question about factory farms

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corona
Posts: 12751 - Karma: 32,253
I know a lot of people are against factory farms, citing ethical reasons. You really don't need to look hard to realize they aren't the nicest places for any creature to live. Case and point:

Click for larger image


If you are someone who is against the idea of factory farming, I'd like you to comment.


now not too long ago (maybe 5 or 10 years) scientists have isolated the gene for fear. Assuming this gene is turned off, an animal would assume complete serenity throughout its life.

So if chickens, for example, were genetically modified so that the specific gene for fear is silenced, the would never fear. Their entire life would be serene and beautiful.


My question: Would you then agree that there is no more moral dilemma with factory farms if animals contained within could not fear?
Nov 22 2012 7:13PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,397
wait fear? wouldnt that be an emotion? like people who are afraid of dogs or something. that would be kind of interesting if they did that though.
Nov 22 2012 7:18PM
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Spinoza
Posts: 12763 - Karma: 3,844
The only problem I have with the original circumstance is any negative effects the caged animals have vs a wild animal (if there are any) on the person eating it's health.
But sure why not make the chickens less scared? It can't hurt
Nov 22 2012 7:18PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11630 - Karma: 24,465
I buy organic eggs and chicken not because i feel the animal is in fear. I buy that shit because i think they have miserable lives. No chicken should live without a beak. My turkey was pasture raised and cost $5.50 per pound opposed to like $1.80 for an industrial bird. I dont think either lives in fear but one got to roam around a field and do turkey shit while the other was crammed in a pen with a thousand other birds.
Nov 22 2012 7:19PM
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LoathesRaisins
Posts: 3612 - Karma: 4,735
No, because some would still be tortured before they are killed. Maybe turn off their genes that cause pain receptors to form.
Nov 22 2012 7:20PM
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corona
Posts: 12751 - Karma: 32,253
not really related, but I figured someone would enjoy this. During the 70's this dude called Jim Nollman went to a turkey farm with a tape recorder and recorded this. Him singing, and turkeys gobbling along.



Nov 22 2012 7:21PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,397
i dont think that is possible to do, but it would be really cool if that could happen.
Nov 22 2012 7:21PM
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steezbox
Posts: 1394 - Karma: 701
I don't think that the lack of fear makes a difference in terms of morality. Just because something/someone doesn't understand what is happening doesn't mean that it is any more ethical. That could be applied to any situations with humans as well.

I remember hearing about a book which explains how there are absolutely no benefits to eating meat, be it social, environmental, or economical. It is just a huge waste of resources. I forgot what it is though... anybody know? I am personally not a vegetarian, nor do i plan to be, but it seems interesting.
Nov 22 2012 7:24PM
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LoathesRaisins
Posts: 3612 - Karma: 4,735
For sure.
Nov 22 2012 7:25PM
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steezbox
Posts: 1394 - Karma: 701
it will be possible to do in the future however.
Nov 22 2012 7:26PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,397
hell i would let them do that to my arm, i could just put grease all over it then just throw flaming balls of grease at people and would laugh, because i cant feel anything.
Nov 22 2012 7:27PM
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corona
Posts: 12751 - Karma: 32,253
that book is wrong. there are certain amino acids essential to proper development in humans that you can only get from eating meat. there's a reason humans evolved as an omnivorous species.

but the meat aspect isn't what I'm talking about. the raising of the meat (that sounds like a bad porn title). since factory farms are so much more space and resource efficient, if we could get around the moral opposition, why not just grow everything in massive massive factory farms?
Nov 22 2012 7:27PM
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Amadeus.
Posts: 3050 - Karma: 382
but then you must ask the question if its morally right to genetically modify animals to such an extent.
Nov 22 2012 7:31PM
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LoathesRaisins
Posts: 3612 - Karma: 4,735
And then you wouldn't have a hand anymore.
Nov 22 2012 7:32PM
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Barefootin_Fiend
Posts: 7618 - Karma: 4,727
it'll never happen...at least not for a loooong time. big pharma has too much money in pain meds...
Nov 22 2012 7:33PM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,397
but at least i got to throw flaming balls of grease at people for awhile, which makes it all worthit.
Nov 22 2012 7:33PM
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steezbox
Posts: 1394 - Karma: 701
K, I may have twisted that in a bit of a weird way. It isn't some random person's opinion though. And the whole book does relate to your original question. I know that one reason to not do that, ignoring the moral implications, is because of the tremendous environmental impacts. These farms have a much larger impact than people are usually aware of.
Nov 22 2012 7:35PM
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corona
Posts: 12751 - Karma: 32,253
well that's the thing, I don't think they have nearly the environmental impact per pound of produce than a family farm.
Nov 22 2012 7:39PM
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steezbox
Posts: 1394 - Karma: 701
Then you have to ask, how much energy and food is wasted in factory farms? Maybe if they were operating at optimal efficiency levels it would be a bigger trade off. I don't have any stats, but i am pretty sure there is a lot of waste in factory farms.
Nov 22 2012 7:42PM
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roach1324
Posts: 215 - Karma: 331
meat is murder, tasty, tasty murder


Nov 22 2012 8:47PM
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TheHamburglar
Posts: 3895 - Karma: 3,314
still deprives them of their rights to a free life, medical care, and not to be harmed, plus genetically modifying them to begin with is ethically wrong, some would argue. also has the possibility of long-term health effects, which is a big controversy in the animal rights world currently.

otherwise, I say fuck it, lets eat em. animal rights groups can gargle my meat.
Nov 22 2012 8:53PM
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squashmosh
Posts: 632 - Karma: 565
Any scientist who tells you they can simply isolate a gene that determines _____ and shit it off is absolutely bullshitting. Genetics is way more complicated than that and has a lot to do with how environmental factors activate and effect genes and their functions.
Nov 22 2012 10:56PM
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Round-Four
Posts: 1073 - Karma: 174
can a creature feel fear if it never feels happiness? i think that the moral / ethical issues about animals are not worth the trouble they create, since in the end the thing just gets killed anyways.
Nov 22 2012 11:12PM
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squashmosh
Posts: 632 - Karma: 565
Humans get killed all the time too and people still debate the morality of that.
Nov 22 2012 11:14PM
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CheddarJack
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 7,380
man that's what it's all about. Doin' that turkey shit for dayz
Nov 22 2012 11:14PM
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LoathesRaisins
Posts: 3612 - Karma: 4,735
How so?
Nov 22 2012 11:15PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11953 - Karma: 12,292
The fact that we have been "mass producing" animals for years is wrong. It's not just the fear and pain these animals experience, its the fact that these animals are put in a place where diseases run rampid, where they have to be pumped full of antibiotics to keep them from dying of the thousands of diseases that are constantly spreading throughout these creatures. It's the fact that we are feeding these animals foods their bodies aren't designed to consume, therefor causing adverse effects that make eating the meat of these animals bad for us. I honestly believe that factory farms are wrong in every sense. They promote bad business, threatening farmers and producing a product so borderline disgusting that we as consumers should be ashamed to be purchasing it. I have done so much research on the topic that the things I have found would disturb most if not everyone on this site that has a moral sense of right and wrong and cares what they are putting into their bodies. The whole "treating the animals humanely/getting rid you their fear" is only the tip of the iceberg man. Factory farms should be abolished for good.
Nov 22 2012 11:21PM
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Lick
Posts: 1927 - Karma: 518
I am one of those people who feel bad for everyone and everything.
So, yeah, I would still feel bad for them, but even know I just try not to think about it.
Nov 22 2012 11:23PM
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loomis
Posts: 945 - Karma: 176
I don't really have a strong side on the argument, but I saw this movie. It was heavily biased; but interesting.
http://www.takepart.com/foodinc/action
Nov 22 2012 11:31PM
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squashmosh
Posts: 632 - Karma: 565
Read Robert Sapolsky's Monkeyluv and there is an article he wrote about this. Also I'm sure you can just look up genetic determinance and find lots of articles about this. It's not that genes don't influence us but that they are complex networks activated in multifarious ways by our environments.
Nov 22 2012 11:31PM
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skithesprings
Posts: 9086 - Karma: 1,349
I don't care if my food was scared or didn't have an intact turkey family in a peaceful setting.

As far as I'm concerned a turkey is no different than an ear of corn.
Nov 22 2012 11:33PM
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El_Barto.
Posts: 11630 - Karma: 24,465
Right. Like why shouldnt all turkeys get to gobble it up in a field while theyre alive? Shit, id trade with em. My life is stressful as fuck and those turkeys just trot around with out a care in the world.
Nov 22 2012 11:38PM
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james6345789
Posts: 4763 - Karma: 465
fear? what about sadness and any other negative emotion?
Nov 22 2012 11:39PM
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skithesprings
Posts: 9086 - Karma: 1,349
turkeys are scared of predators. turkeys that are raised on turkey farms have no predators. they just get excited as shit to eat some food. they have no idea that they should be roaming around in the woods. they aren't sad.
Nov 22 2012 11:44PM
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yourthemannowdog
Posts: 4541 - Karma: 313
Morally? I would say no. You are violating the categorical imperative. Morally you can not use the chicken's biological capabilities as a means to an end. Eating a chicken that has that gene removed is morally worse than eating a chicken that doesn't have the gene removed because of this. It is more damaging to the dignity of the chicken. If the objective goal or motives for removing this gene is purely to make the chicken happier, then absolutely yes. But more often than not we do this to sell more chickens and ease our own guild, THUS we are using the chickens as a means to an end.
Nov 23 2012 12:34AM
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.Apex.
Posts: 2097 - Karma: 1,556
Removing fear wouldn't come without consequence. These animals would probably maul each other all day
Nov 23 2012 12:58AM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
that's not true. what amino acid are you talking about?

there are only 9 essential amino acids. you can get all of them from plants.
Nov 23 2012 1:09AM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
Also I get the free range eggs. It's like 52 cents per egg rather than 30 cents per egg. The eggs taste better as well.
Nov 23 2012 1:10AM
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ForeverYung
Posts: 8385 - Karma: 2,060
It's all about dat local shit man. We get our own eggs from our chickens. Buy meat from a cow that lived about 10 minutes away and had a big as pasture to roam. Get organic chicken and pork from the store. It may be more expensive, but it tastes damn good and you are giving your money to good people, not fucking tyson
Nov 23 2012 1:19AM
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daannnnieel
Posts: 5163 - Karma: 4,293
I think that would be better if they fed them lsd, and took out the fear gene. They would have the most beautiful life out of every creature on this planet.
Nov 23 2012 1:28AM
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=M=
Posts: 50 - Karma: 16
#fuckmonsanto
Nov 23 2012 1:50AM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
we're the goddamn dominant species on this planet. we fucked everyone up on the way here so we can eat whatever we want, however we want, from wherever we want it. i don't think a bear would give a shit if we're comfy and cozy before it ate us.
Nov 23 2012 3:03AM
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squashmosh
Posts: 632 - Karma: 565
A bear would have no essential reason to eat us as bears do not naturally predate humans. Bears may maul/kill people from time to time because it feels like its cubs are threatened but not because it wants our meat.
Nov 23 2012 9:56AM
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Round-Four
Posts: 1073 - Karma: 174
yes but a chicken who lives in a cage its entire life without room to move doesnt have any notion that anything outside exists, doesnt know it has a mother, doesnt know what its like to run around, doesnt know what its like to feel healthy, or eat food that doesnt have shit in it. for those birds, thats all there is to their life, so there is nothing to be unhappy about. we look at it objectively because we value our free lifestyle and would feel terrible if we had to live in those conditions. but a chicken has no idea. all of its emotion range takes place in that setting, without any influence from the outside. so what reason is there to expect that the chicken would feel bad about its life if it has no notion that there could be anything better?
Nov 23 2012 10:09AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Humans have been genetically modifying species long before we had any real understanding of genes. It may be a valid question still, but there are already hordes of animals walking the earth that wouldn't survive a week without human intervention.
Nov 23 2012 11:27AM
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rzarector
Posts: 590 - Karma: 70
does anyone else see a lot of similarities between factory farms and china?
Nov 23 2012 11:50AM
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Abu_Hajaar
Posts: 2747 - Karma: 3,890
I don't see what the chicken has to fear, it lives its whole life in that setting and then one day they kill it.
Nov 23 2012 11:52AM
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Bill.Nye
Posts: 4060 - Karma: 2,109
I lack that gene
Nov 23 2012 11:56AM
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squashmosh
Posts: 632 - Karma: 565
There are tons of things that chicken do that exhibit the idea that they resist being in cages because of their natural inclinations. Do you know the reason they don't have beaks? Because they would peck each other to death if they did.
Nov 23 2012 12:04PM
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B-runge
Posts: 16558 - Karma: 360
fuck how afraid the chickens are, there's a lot of other things wrong with factory farms and we dont need to start by genetically modifying them more
Nov 23 2012 12:08PM
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squashmosh
Posts: 632 - Karma: 565
Also this is circular logic. You're basically arguing that "because they are raised in cages they are ok being raised in cages".
Nov 23 2012 12:10PM
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