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Electric winch?

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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Sorry if this question has already been answered but I searchbarred.
So I'm building a winch (for urban obviously) and my dad, grandpa and I have all been thinking of ideas for a while now as well as doing research online. They both think electric could work just as good or better than a gas powered winch. It would be simpler, lighter and less expensive. I like the sound of this but I'm very hesitant because no one makes home made electric winches and to buy one (buying a winch for me is out of the question) they are like $4000. Any input could help!
Thanks and +K for good responses!
Nov 29 2011 5:47PM
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Dr.Newschoolers
Posts: 1357 - Karma: 508
Just use another persons design and if there are no electric ones they probably dont work
Nov 29 2011 5:48PM
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loganimlach
Posts: 5132 - Karma: 14,052
The reasons that most people don't use electric motors for winches are A) they are more expensive to buy and to maintain, and B) they don't do well in the low end, meaning you need much more room to achieve the same speed a gas winch would provide.
Nov 29 2011 5:53PM
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iLLbiLLy
Posts: 2865 - Karma: 2,631
It may be possible but I doubt its cheaper. You probably need at least a 7-10HP motor. Buying one new will probably cost at least 500 bucks. You might be able to salvage one from something but IDK what uses an electric motor that size. Maybe an old golfcart? GL
Nov 29 2011 5:55PM
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iLLbiLLy
Posts: 2865 - Karma: 2,631
Also you going to want to consider your battery life in the cold temps we normally experience when hitting urban.
Nov 29 2011 5:57PM
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Canepski
Posts: 335 - Karma: 26
BooDog winches is an electric winch company. i got to wakeskate with them for a day their machine is sick
Nov 29 2011 5:58PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
How would it be more expensive to maintain? And it wouldn't need too much more room would it?
Also how fast do winches typically go? I know this might be a tough question to answer since there is such a variety of horsepowers and other things that come into play but what is an estimate?

And boodog winches also start at $3600
Nov 29 2011 6:12PM
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WIllW
Posts: 4578 - Karma: 2,512
Top speed is usually 25-35mph, some custom ones go up to 45
Nov 29 2011 7:27PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Alright that helps a lot. thank you
Nov 29 2011 7:46PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,289
Just get a banshee bungee man. I like the way they've used winches in wakeboarding. They def can be used in skiing, but a banshee bungee will probably be more than enough for anything you're going to use it for and you'll save like 2 or 3k


Nov 29 2011 7:51PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
I've already decided that I'm building a winch. Maybe a bungee will have enough umph but thats not the whole point. Even though it will cost a bit more (not even $1000) it will be worth it just to get the experience of building something like this.
Nov 29 2011 10:05PM
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Nemmy
Posts: 3 - Karma: 31
why not add a transmission of some sort? golf cart motor+ transmission+ decent battery of some sort and bam. I have never done this before, just some ideas.
Nov 29 2011 10:40PM
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maxwell666
Posts: 554 - Karma: 20
you would need a decently large motor to power a winch. just use a small gas motor.
Nov 29 2011 10:42PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
if you had to make this thread, i doubt your winch will work
Nov 29 2011 10:48PM
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ski_ENDUB
Posts: 2535 - Karma: 86
get on some wakeboarding forums, they'll have much better suggestions than ns
Nov 29 2011 11:07PM
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loganimlach
Posts: 5132 - Karma: 14,052
Well you're either going to have to run it off of a generator, which will burn more gas than your typical 5hp gas winch, or you're gonna have to run it off of batteries, which will be EXTREMELY expensive in your initial costs. Go search winch on sbcskier, i made an article for people like you (motivated and mechanically inclined) explaining all of the components.
Nov 30 2011 12:32AM
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zerospinskier
Posts: 4867 - Karma: 350
Alright, if you really want to do this, go to wakeskating.com and search the forums. There are plans/pics for just about every type of frame possible on that site. You're not going to make an electric one. It just isn't practical or easy. Buy a used 6-10hp motor, or get a new one for real cheap from Harbor Freight.

Don't spend a lot of a fancy spool. A metal wheel hub and large cutting wheels work great.

Buy your parts from http://www.northerntool.com/


And your metal from a local shop.

Chose any design from a picture on wakeskating.com, or anywhere on the internet. Measure out your design on paper, or in a fancy CAD program (if you know how) to get your lengths. Then just have it welded up. Bolt on your parts. And fire it up. It is really easy to make a winch, it just costs some money.
Nov 30 2011 2:33AM
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loganimlach
Posts: 5132 - Karma: 14,052
it doesn't have to cost tons of money if you're resourceful, i built mine for $250.
Nov 30 2011 10:20AM
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gpitcher
Posts: 2626 - Karma: 1,691
Guy around me in Michigan builds winches for 850. Spencer Milbocker's crew bought one from him. But an electric winch that you could plug into you car with a converter would be unreal
Nov 30 2011 10:21AM
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MikeWeinerONE
Posts: 501 - Karma: 1,215
Flystyle Ranch in Lyle, Washington has a custom made Cloud Street Winch that is 6,000 feet long and goes 55 mph... It is pretty ridiculous.
Nov 30 2011 12:32PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Okay some of you guys really dont understand.... I made this thread asking about the possibilities of an electric winch. Dont tell me to get a bungee or use a gas motor because that wasnt part of my question. Logan you have helped alot so far and i have looked at your tutorial and on the wakeskate forums. I still, however dont understand how an electric motor will need more maintainace. The point of this thread was to see if there are any huge disadvantages to an electric winch or to see if it has been done homemade. I have everything else figured out and like I said I have my dad and grandpa to help me out. My dad seems to think electric is the way to go and hes going to do it to see if it works, if it doesnt, then I'll know and build a gas winch out of my own pocket. Thatnk you other people who have made good contibutions in answering my questions. Sorry if there are some typos im on an ipad
Nov 30 2011 12:52PM
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loganimlach
Posts: 5132 - Karma: 14,052
its not maintenance from the standpoint of changing the oil and sparkplugs (like you would with a gas motor), it's from an operating standpoint. like i said before you're either gonna have to run it off of a generator or batteries, either of which is going to cost you more than running a gas winch (which has better low end torque anyways).

http://www.ultimatewasher.com/small-ac-electric-motors.htm

here's your other disadvantage: weight. a 7.5 horse electric motor weighs almost 90 lbs. My 7.5 horse honda can't weigh more than 40 lbs. so whoever told you they would be lighter was sorely mistaken.
Nov 30 2011 1:14PM
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Rusticles
Posts: 2178 - Karma: 1,333

You may be able to get away with a 3hp (120V)electric motor and some gear advantage to reduce the load on the motor and reduce the speed of the motor, (typically 1800 rpm).  These motors are commonly found on air-compressors and wood lathes etc.  you will need significant lengths of extension cords in order to plug in to receptacles commonly found in/on parking lots/buildings. do not cheap out on extension cords.  Small gauge wire will contribute to voltage drop which will lesson power.  Also GFI protection will be desirable in the wet snow.

Nov 30 2011 4:18PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,289
Sorry I tried to help keep you from from wasting your money.


Good luck on your fail machine.
Nov 30 2011 4:31PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Okay that makes sense. I'll be using batteries. and as of now The idea is a 2 piece winch. The motor and spool (and other things) will be in one part and then I'm going to have a bag with 1 or 2 car batteries. I'll be able to hook them up but still have a 2 piece kit which will fit in my car nicely. I also found someone willing to give me 2 $500 DC (which is what I want) motors for free because they have no use for them. I'll try this idea out and see if it works, and keep this thread updated. But thank you again everyone who had good input. especially you logan, you really seem like you know what you're doing.
Nov 30 2011 7:20PM
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COskier
Posts: 1066 - Karma: 131
I don't know very much about the practical applications of mechanics (only theoretical), but answer me this: The Logan guy said multiple times that an electric winch would have a bad low end. But, I have always understood that it is the opposite because gas motors have to reach their torque peak to maximize power which generally occurs at higher rpms because that is where they use the full amount of fuel that they can as they are sparking more often than at lower rpms. Anybody who can clarify?
Nov 30 2011 7:38PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
you're an idiot.


you cant run something like that off of car batteries!

car batteries are made to produce extremely high amperage for a very short period of time, then be immediately recharged by the alternator. you cant run a motor off of one for long at all because you will destroy the batteries. car batteries should never be drained to under 95% left. if that does happen the battery will suck and eventually die completely. not to mention your gonna have to deal with acid, deadly high amperage amung many other things.

also, it will not work with a spool connected directly to the motor, there wont be enough torque, no matter what you do, and if there is it wont get going very fast.
a gasoline powered winch uses a thing called a torque converter, this is like a belt driven automatic transmission and is necessary for a good winch because it allows for high torque starts and will also give you high speeds at the high end.

and i hope you know how to weld in order to build a frame for this contraption, because from what i have read here it seems as if you dont.....
Nov 30 2011 8:01PM
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FrostyBro
Posts: 58 - Karma: 10
Some bad info above. Electric would be cheaper and lighter and more reliable, you shouldn't be comparing horsepower, what you should care about it torque: electric motors have lots of low end torque (right from zero) ever driven a golf cart? -it might not go 60 but it takes off in a hurry. Where weight and expense comes in is in batteries, so you are left with needing to plug it in which is usually tough in public places. I imagine that you don't see any electric winches for that reason: no where to plug them in. However if you are making your own just to use in your back yard with an extension cord from the house, then you're probably in good shape.
Nov 30 2011 8:01PM
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iLLbiLLy
Posts: 2865 - Karma: 2,631
Where did you hear electric motors have less torque then gas? From what I understand electric motors have MORE torque then gas motors.

Heres a discussion I found about it

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Power_Comparison_Between.html
Nov 30 2011 8:07PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
invalid
-a 5hp gas motor these days makes a gallon of gas go like 5 hours at like 2500rpm, a gallon of gas costs $3.20. thats cheap as fuck!

-the electric motor and batteries you would need for this would weigh twice what a gasoline one would, not to mention be three times as expensive.

-engines these days are reliable as fuck, i have multiple engines that are 10 years old and start in 2 pulls in the winter, and ones today are even better.

-and you do need a lot of speed in some urban situations that a electric motor wouldn't provide if geared for low-end torque.



gasoline beats electric in every way! get it yet, OP?
Nov 30 2011 8:13PM
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loganimlach
Posts: 5132 - Karma: 14,052
i'll be the first to admit that i don't have a ton of motor knowledge, i got my information about the low ends from a little reading and a dude that owns a go kart track (a winch is essentially a go kart with a spool instead of an axle). there's no doubt in my mind, when thinking about it, that an electric motor will provide a more efficient high end, but struggle in the low end because of your gearing and the motors ability to "work". golf carts have the ability to get up and go, also because of their gearing.

if anyone can explain to me otherwise i would be more than happy to learn a thing or two, even though i most definitely will not switch to electric due to weight.

7.5 HP Electric = 88 lbs (http://www.ultimatewasher.com/small-ac-electric-motors.htm)

7.5 HP Gas = 53 lbs (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200369816_200369816)
Nov 30 2011 9:01PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Thats where you're wrong. I have PHYSICALLY SEEN something like this run off of car batteries. My grandpa designed and built a dragster. Even though it was just a fun thing for the kids to ride on at family parties, it had a lot of power and did exactly what you said couldn't be done, without losing hardly any batterie power. And where did you get the idea anywhere from anything I've said that I don't have welding skills? I also know what a torque converter is. Like I said I've done a lot of research. And maybe you're right, the motor may not have enough power right from the shaft, but thats why this is an experiment. If it doesn't we'll change it up to see if it can have enough power.
Nov 30 2011 9:41PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,289
Please post pics and videos a long the way.



I'm gonna sit back and enjoy this shit. I don't really need a winch but I'm gonna build one anyway, I don't know what I'm doing but I'm gonna build one anyway, my best guess for help is a ski website, I'm gonna ignore all the advice from the thread and build it anyway, it doesn't matter if it's practical or not I'm gonna build it anyway.




This should be interesting.
Nov 30 2011 9:49PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Do it bro! I definitely will post some pictures if it works. Like I said this will be a fun experiment, and a learning experience. And the only reason I came here is to see if anyone had done it. We seem to be having an alright conversation about the whole thing and I'm learning new things. Its really not that big of a deal and it doesn't effect you in any way whatsoever so there's not really any need to be an asshole.
Nov 30 2011 10:03PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
the fact is your being an ignorant fuck, and ignoring any advice people are giving to you. your idea wont work, and if it does you will waste a thousand dollars on a piece of shit that you have no idea how to make.

go ahead, have fun getting raped up the ass by car batteries on your stupid winch
Nov 30 2011 10:25PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Hahah thanks man. I'm not going to spend a thousand dollars though but nice try... And obviously some people are misinformed since there are people on both sides saying it will work or wont work. I originally came and made this to see if it was possible and maybe even prove my dad wrong because he said electric is the way to go. He told me he'll pay for it and if it works I'll pay him back. Since I'm getting 2 nice motors FOR FREE, why not try it out? I don't see the huge risk in the whole thing. THAT IT MIGHT NOT WORK????? Big ass deal. Obviously if it gets too spendy I'll just make a gas powered winch. And then we'll all know that it works or doesn't work. Its not like since people are saying it wont work I want to go out and prove them wrong. There are obviously outside factors in this whole project not just a bunch of skiers (many who dont know what they're talking about) on the internet... I think people should just calm down and not freak out because I'm going to do something that they don't think will work. Next time I have a question about something like this I'll make sure to take it to a different place. But again, thank you to the people who actually have legit advice.
Nov 30 2011 10:47PM
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loganimlach
Posts: 5132 - Karma: 14,052
fuck if that's the case why not. let me know how it turns out, i'm curious. post pics too.
Nov 30 2011 10:49PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
i do have legit advice.

look at my 2 posts above. i mentioned that car batteries will not work, and other things
Nov 30 2011 11:05PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,289
True signs of a noob. Post advice. Realize you look stupid. Try to pretend you aren't stupid. Fail at that.


You were dead set on making this electric and spending money on it was no big deal. You came here for advice and got raped by the truth.

" Next time I have a question about something like this I'll make sure to take it to a different place"

please do

" But again, thank you to the people who actually have legit advice."


This thread had plenty of advice you just suck at taking it.


TAKE IT LIKE I GIVE IT BITCH


TAKE IT LIKE I GIVE IT
Nov 30 2011 11:19PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Okay yes you did have advice on the car batteries not working, but again I've seen it work. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
Nov 30 2011 11:47PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Here are some people who seem to think it could work. And you are so wrong on the fact that I was dead set on electric. like I said it was partly to prove that it wouldnt work to my dad. like I also said there are other outside factors that influenced the electric idea. And I'm pretty sure you have no clue what any of this engine stuff means becasue you told me to just get a bungee....
COskier
Karma : 1226
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Nov 30 2011
7:38:46
Quote Reply
I don't know very much about the practical applications of mechanics (only theoretical), but answer me this: The Logan guy said multiple times that an electric winch would have a bad low end. But, I have always understood that it is the opposite because gas motors have to reach their torque peak to maximize power which generally occurs at higher rpms because that is where they use the full amount of fuel that they can as they are sparking more often than at lower rpms. Anybody who can clarify?

FrostyBro
Karma : 447
57 Posts
Wannabe
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Nov 30 2011
8:01:58
Quote Reply
Some bad info above. Electric would be cheaper and lighter and more reliable, you shouldn't be comparing horsepower, what you should care about it torque: electric motors have lots of low end torque (right from zero) ever driven a golf cart? -it might not go 60 but it takes off in a hurry. Where weight and expense comes in is in batteries, so you are left with needing to plug it in which is usually tough in public places. I imagine that you don't see any electric winches for that reason: no where to plug them in. However if you are making your own just to use in your back yard with an extension cord from the house, then you're probably in good shape.

iLLbiLLy
Karma : 102684
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Addict

Nov 30 2011
8:07:18
Quote Reply
Quoting loganimlach$ from Nov 30 2011 1:14:29:
its not maintenance from the standpoint of changing the oil and sparkplugs (like you would with a gas motor), it's from an operating standpoint. like i said before you're either gonna have to run it off of a generator or batteries, either of which is going to cost you more than running a gas winch (which has better low end torque anyways). http://www.ultimatewasher.com/small-ac-electric-motors.htm here's your other disadvantage: weight. a 7.5 horse electric motor weighs almost 90 lbs. My 7.5 horse honda can't weigh more than 40 lbs. so whoever told you they would be lighter was sorely mistaken.
Where did you hear electric motors have less torque then gas? From what I understand electric motors have MORE torque then gas motors.

Heres a discussion I found about it

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Power_Comparison_Between.html

I still do not see why some people are making that big of a deal about it. Plus there are so many more things to consider when going between gas and electric. The HP isn't the same. a 3hp electric motor has a different amount of power than a 3hp gas motor.

Nov 30 2011 11:49PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
once again, ignoring me, i know a lot about batteries and i know for a fact it wont work without ruining the batteries
Dec 1 2011 1:06PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Then why have I see it work? I'm not trying to prove you worng, im just saying I've seen it work in a different appliance but the same general idea. If I hadn't see this before I would probably take your advice. It just seems strange to me that how I'm interpreting what you are saying has actually worked and I've seen it. I might not completely understand what you're saying though.
Dec 1 2011 3:54PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
where have you seen that work? what device exactly?
Dec 1 2011 4:19PM
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timC
Posts: 344 - Karma: 117
Abortionater. Do everyone a favor and shut the fuck up. I have read the entire thread and Logan and the OP are making the most sense.
Dec 1 2011 4:34PM
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.Ian.
Posts: 1568 - Karma: 71
I'm just going to add this to my threads. I'm curious to see whether it will work or not because really I haven't got the slightest clue when it comes to electric motors.
Dec 1 2011 4:35PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
It was 2 12 volt car batteries connected to a 12 volt car starter motor that was mated to a lawnmower transmission. Like I said this little dragster car could go into a wheelie with a 200+ lb person on it.
Dec 1 2011 6:11PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
thats because that motor is made for that amperage, yours most likely are not. an i doubt those batteries hold a charge long or will last
Dec 1 2011 6:50PM
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SPskier543
Posts: 2413 - Karma: 324
http://www.harborfreight.com/engines-generators/gas-engines/predator-212-cc-ohv-horizontal-shaft-gas-engine-certified-for-california-68121.html

one of these, get somebody or yourself to weld a simple aluminum cube around it, find a pulley that will fit the output shaft and it should work. maybe.

Dec 1 2011 7:09PM
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Swaggermager
Posts: 2576 - Karma: 951
Those 2 batteries have lasted 4 years without being recharged. And like I said I'm going to try it out for the hell of it. If it works great, if it doesn't, oh well. I'm not trying to go against what you are saying, or trying to say you are wrong, but my grandpa, who was an electrical engineer for many years, seems to think it will work.
Dec 1 2011 7:30PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
that's impossible, but ill let you go now, just thought i would let you know.

good luck
Dec 1 2011 7:47PM
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