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A little issue (legal rights)

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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
Last season my local mountain purchased a photo from me for use in their mountain guide. The invoice I wrote them regarding it specifically stated that it was for use in the '10/'11 season mountain guide and any further use would require more negotiation.

I was told today that a cropped version of the photo was printed in this years '11/'12 season mountain guide. I need to talk to the mountain to get some sort compensation. I was hoping something with experience with this sort of thing could offer me advice on how to proceed.

Thanks M/A
Nov 7 2011 10:12PM
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I.B
Posts: 8137 - Karma: 24,354
go to ski resort, meet with execs or whatever.

Ask them for money, if they don't give it to you, ask them this

"sir what is in my fist?"
"Wat?"
PUNCH HIm IN THE FUCKING FACE
then say
"IT WAS PAIN"
Nov 7 2011 10:17PM
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gravel
Posts: 5479 - Karma: 41,493
i lost it
Nov 7 2011 10:21PM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
ok that could work but on a more serious note...
Nov 7 2011 10:23PM
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MACAQUE
Posts: 2811 - Karma: 696
I'd just contact a lawyer and sue the shit out of them if possible. They didn't warn you before they stole your pic, so you shouldn't warn them before you sue. I feel like photogs are not getting enough respect in the ski/snowboard world, so that's just my take on it.
Nov 7 2011 10:28PM
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Jeff_Lo
Posts: 5809 - Karma: 263
First thing I'd do is send them an invoice via Mail, Email and Fax

Did you sign a contract?  Make a copy of your invoice or contract show it to the mountain.  If they don't compensate you ask them to remove the photo and replace it. 

If they don't contact you back and ignore you go there in person and speak to them about the situation.  Give them a chance to complete payment.  If they don't contact the BBB.  And if they've already distributed the photo you can technically go after them if they refuse to pay your new invoice, and if it's already distributed.  Although you do have to prove that the image was strictly for the 10/11 season.  I would only use small claims court though, i'd doubt it would likely go that far. 
Nov 7 2011 10:32PM
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eheath
Posts: 61098 - Karma: 118,241
Hmm this is interesting, because technically they "own" the photo but if you specified it for the 2010/2011 season you might be able to get something but the thing is they probably just had it on file, it looked go so they threw it in, probably had no idea what the situation was and if you approach them nicely im sure they'll hook it.
Nov 7 2011 11:01PM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
yeah thats kinda what im thinking happened since the person who i originally approached me to buy the photo and dealt with it all previously is no longer with the mountain.
Nov 7 2011 11:13PM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,385
This happens all the time, so get used to it.

When you sell someone a photo, unless they are paying top dollar to legitimately own the rights to the photo, you are licensing them the work. They do not OWN the photo. You can license them indefinitely, or for a set amount of time.

Based on what you described, you were legit about the license agreement, and it's specified for that season. If you legitimately wrote "the 10/11 season" there's gray area... you need to, in the future, set dates ie November 1st 2010 to June 1st 2011, or something like that.

You still have the contract, hopefully. Don't email them, call them. Speak with the contact that you spoke to at the resort, or whoever signed the contract. Explain to them that it came to your attention that they were using the photo without your consent/beyond the terms of the contract, but you are willing to negotiate a fair usage price and set up a new use agreement. Be courteous and professional and they will likely oblige.

If they deny you, then it's time to get a lawyer to co-sign a cease and desist letter stating that you own the rights to the photo and they are breaching copyright terms.

Nov 8 2011 12:16AM
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Galin
Posts: 2342 - Karma: 3,940
I thought that for a while as well, but having done a bunch of photo assisting recently on the side of my video stuff I've gained another perspective on it. Basically, they only "own" the photo as long as the rights specify. So technically they only "owned" the rights for that 10-11 season as specified, and any use thereafter is a breach in the contract. The easiest way to make things right is, like someone said above, simply send over an invoice in an email along with an explanation and a copy of the last rights agreement. Be understanding yet firm, as some people just don't get the concept of a rights agreement.

It seems like a pretty simple mistake, and I'm sure it was, especially if there were all new people dealing with the photo. However, it's important that you stay on top of your rights agreements and pursue this. Also, looking forward, instead of saying '10-11 or 11-12 season', it might be best to go by year(s) from the shoot so there's always a date set in stone for when that license is no longer valid. Best of luck in getting this figured out.
Nov 8 2011 12:16AM
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Utard
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 296
Sorry if I'm derailing a bit but how much do people typically pay for shots like this?
Nov 8 2011 12:54AM
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eheath
Posts: 61098 - Karma: 118,241
all depends on the client really
Nov 8 2011 1:05AM
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Static
Posts: 8491 - Karma: 4,058
The BBB aint shit, and they won't do shit. They are not a government agency, and have less muscle than AAA. All they do is list a company as being naughty on their website. Nothing more, nothing less. Consumer advocacy at it's worst.

OP, don't deal with the ski area (they will probably just brush you off anyway), get an IP lawyer and take them to town.
Nov 8 2011 7:31AM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,385
He's dealt with them before in a professional manner and been compensated for it, there's no reason to assume that they are going to blow him off.

Besides that, doing things like this is a sure-fire way to get a really bad and unprofessional rep. Why wouldn't you attempt to talk to the party at fault before assuming they are trying to rip you off, and getting a lawyer involved?
Nov 8 2011 8:04AM
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Static
Posts: 8491 - Karma: 4,058
that was before they stole from him, I for one don't trust thieves. Getting paid is a bitch especially when they don't think they owe you. I'm my experiences doing things the nice way is just a waste of time, but yea, you will burn bridges standing up for yourself. Also anything they offer is probably way less than a lawyer could get out of them.
Nov 8 2011 8:22AM
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lukewalnuts
Posts: 2730 - Karma: 152
I'm also interested in this
Nov 8 2011 10:15AM
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Alkyy
Posts: 2839 - Karma: 149
^It doesnt sound like they intentionally stole anything, they didn't find his picture on his website or something and just copy it over and use it.  If there was a change in who was dealing with this stuff at the resort im guessing the old guy had the file saved on his computer, the new person came in, saw a good shot and used it not realizing there was any contract tied to it.

If it has already been sent to print they are not going to want to recall everything make a new brochure and send it back to print.  Simply letting them know what is up and what you need for compensation on it would probably go along way in figuring everything out.  It will probably be an "oh shit" moment for the guy and they will want to get you taken care of before lawyers get involved and it gets more expensive for everyone.
Nov 8 2011 10:31AM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,385
There's very few times that I'm willing to straight up say that someone is objectively wrong in the way they handle things, but in this case, you are.

First, you're criminalizing someone for what is more likely a mistake than a conscious decision. Second - standing up for yourself is different than accusing a past client (and, if handled correctly, possibly a future client) of a crime without giving the benefit of the doubt, which happens to be the professionally accepted thing to do. And saying that "anything they offer is probably way less than a lawyer could get out of them" is disregarding any sense of professionalism or courtesy not previously disregarded by the first two points.

Stop assuming everyone is out to get you, it will be good for business. Trust me.


Nov 9 2011 12:30AM
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Galin
Posts: 2342 - Karma: 3,940
You seem a bit jaded on this matter, but I can see where that might come from what with most people not respecting or acknowledging rights agreements. However, it's always worth a firm, yet friendly email about the matter prior to bringing lawyers into things. Sure, what they lawyer could get might be more than what you'll get for another year of rights on the image, but that will also burn your bridge with that client and take away any potential future work you might've had with them. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Nov 9 2011 12:42AM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
I'm really hoping it doesn't get to the point where lawyers need to get involved, so I'm going to avoid that situation unless absolutely necessary.
Nov 9 2011 2:00AM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
and thanks all for the good responses, definitely going to make handling this situation easier.
Nov 9 2011 2:01AM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
update time: I havent had a chance to talk to them yet since I have been super busy with school, but I just discovered another one of my photos on their website, and they never contacted me to use it, thus never had my permission. So I guess I have 2 invoices to send out.
Nov 21 2011 3:47PM
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Static
Posts: 8491 - Karma: 4,058
so did u ever do anything?
Jan 21 2012 1:24AM
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Moosen
Posts: 4285 - Karma: 2,585
Get yo money!!!!

Goodluck man! Shitty situation! Hope you get what you deserve :)
Jan 21 2012 1:52AM
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I.B
Posts: 8137 - Karma: 24,354
i lol'd at my post
Jan 21 2012 2:50AM
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Downtofilm
Posts: 6896 - Karma: 20,399
He got even more fucked.
Jan 21 2012 4:34AM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
yeah still ongoing, shit went even more downhill i'll explain when it gets sorted out
Jan 21 2012 10:34PM
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wintersway
Posts: 5115 - Karma: 128
also interested. i know it depends a lot on client, uses, license, but whats kind of a low end or high end price?
Jan 22 2012 12:25AM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
threads, i'd like to see what comes of this
Jan 22 2012 4:13PM
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broto
Posts: 9039 - Karma: 25,658
threads, damn. what resort is this if i may ask?
Jan 22 2012 11:00PM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
update (hopefully the final one):

how shit got more out of hand: that photo used again the program guide (what my original post was about) was also used in a CITY WIDE ad campaign. for any vancouver people, my photo sits about 3-4 feet tall in a bunch of Canada Line stations. the website photo also got used in another section of the website. I went in and arranged some meetings, asked a very reasonable amount and got completely shut down and told they'd be sending me an offer within a week. today, 20 days since the meeting they finally organized a meeting with another offer. it wasnt what i asked but enough to deter me from taking them to court. i did the math and talked to a lawyer, basically it would cost more for me to take them to court than what i would be making on the photo. i could get it all back with suing for legal charges but that takes years and i just deemed it wasnt worth it.

the corporation won, im not happy but im not willing to devote the time and money to win myself. i figured since i had a contract they would be a little more inclined to give me what i asked, but apparently not.
Feb 2 2012 8:09PM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
i should also ad that they're my current employer and if i took them to court i would have to quit my job. and i really like my job (park crew)
Feb 2 2012 8:13PM
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