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A question of ethics

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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,851

if you capture a terrorist, who is involved in a plot to attack schools across america, what do you think is ethical to do to the terrorist so that he reveals details of the plot that would allow you to stop it?

i.e. is it ethical to torture a terrorist to save hundreds of lives?

Dec 15 2010 2:44PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
this is a bad comparison because everybody would say yes. and then the agreement is used to justify torture for everything that COULD potentially save lives (guantanamo, torture scandal in iraq, ...)
Dec 15 2010 2:46PM
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Bar_Down
Posts: 5896 - Karma: 395
fuckin torture his ass, if you're gonna break a law, why would we abide by other laws that protect him? you shouldnt be able to pick and choose which laws you want to be applied to you and which ones you dont wanna follow
Dec 15 2010 2:48PM
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zakaroo
Posts: 751 - Karma: 37
Torture then kill him. If he was plotting to kill kids, fuck that guy. He can rot in hell.
Dec 15 2010 2:52PM
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SONlC
Posts: 331 - Karma: 10
I don't think this is the place to be discussing ethics...
Dec 15 2010 2:53PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,304

torture him promising that you will spare his life if he tells you the plan and gives up his companions

then kill him slowly and painfully

Dec 15 2010 2:54PM
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skithesprings
Posts: 9086 - Karma: 1,349
i don't see why we recognize terrorists as enemy soldiers under the geneva convention.

torture the shit out of them
Dec 15 2010 2:55PM
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thugaim
Posts: 2181 - Karma: 33
How do you know he knows anything valuable? Can you prove without question that he is involved and has useful inormation? How do you know he won't just lie to make you stop torturing him?
Dec 15 2010 2:55PM
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MEGAZORD
Posts: 4531 - Karma: -7
We aren't doing your ethics paper for you.
Dec 15 2010 2:56PM
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thugaim
Posts: 2181 - Karma: 33
Kids these days are little fuckers anyways.
Dec 15 2010 2:56PM
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chardi
Posts: 5040 - Karma: 59
he obviously was just joking about all that terrorism stuff. we should let him go and by showing him compassion, he will be a good person for the rest of his life.
Dec 15 2010 2:58PM
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Pee_and_Ski
Posts: 1869 - Karma: 57
inception.......daaaa
Dec 15 2010 3:03PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,851

i am taking no sort of ethics class or doing any project on ethics. i was listening to "intelligence squared" (a debate show) and they were debating if we should treat terrorists as criminals or enemy combatants. just wondering what ns thinks

Dec 15 2010 3:07PM
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adamlukowski
Posts: 3676 - Karma: 311
The thing is though, you don't know that he has a plan or is a part of it, and Torture could just make him make up a story to tell you to get the torture to stop. so basically you wouldn't know it would save hundreds of lives because you wouldn't know there is a terrorist plot, or else you wouldn't be torturing them
Dec 15 2010 3:11PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,851

ive heard that in interigation you start asking questions that you know the answer to so you set a pretence that makes the guy think that he will be let go only when he tells the truth

Dec 15 2010 3:18PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
ok thats why noone ever lied at an interrogation and noone ever just confessed everything in order to have the torture stop.

guys, look at this thread, ohmybosh is by far the most intelligent guy in here. underrated member imo /suckingohmyboshshugeandwellshapedcockwhichsmellslikebabyseals
Dec 15 2010 3:45PM
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Bob_Loblaw
Posts: 8384 - Karma: 38
You're being hypocritical. So the supposed terrorist can't pick and choose what laws to abide. If that's the case, then why can the US government? No cruel or unusual punishment is a pretty large part of our constitution. So we can throw that out if somebody is plotting to break laws? That would make for a pretty weak constitution.
Dec 15 2010 4:01PM
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Bar_Down
Posts: 5896 - Karma: 395
well said
Dec 15 2010 4:06PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,315
Use them as example to help pass legislation that gives the government even more power. Put a real good name on it that gives it a nice ring. Spin it in a way that the ignorant people see the new laws as a good thing to "get the bad guys". Sit back and laugh that the people never even read the legislation to find that everything they supported as an effort to stick it to terrorists can easily apply to all of them as well. Profit???
Dec 15 2010 4:09PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,851
what
Dec 15 2010 4:13PM
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Gnarshred
Posts: 5670 - Karma: 18
The thing about ethics, is that there really is no right answer, and politicians are going to do whatever the fuck they want regardless of what anyone says. That said, it is good to form your own opinions about such things.

Here is a good place to start your own thought process:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticking_time_bomb_scenario

Basically, would you torture a person to save 2? How about 1,000? If torturing the evil wouldn't suffice, would you torture the innocent? I.E. their families? Or is it NEVER OK to torture a person?
Dec 15 2010 4:15PM
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kalibudz
Posts: 112 - Karma: 24
no the ends dont justify the means. torture is never a justifiable thing and sure its easy to make a case for torturing one terrorist can save thousands of lives but thats why ethics are so tricky. at the end of the day its about doing whats morally right and like some other kid pointed out reciprocity. but theres no true ethics left in politics anyway so the question is moot
Dec 15 2010 4:20PM
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thugaim
Posts: 2181 - Karma: 33
>me
>intelligent
>Click for larger image
Dec 15 2010 4:26PM
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Bar_Down
Posts: 5896 - Karma: 395
yo, one quick question
when you put those > in front of sentences, wtf does that mean? lol
Dec 15 2010 5:01PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
yo wat?
Dec 15 2010 5:02PM
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.jersey
Posts: 1925 - Karma: 9
we talked about this in my religion class. It is not ethically wrong if you are torturing someone hoping that the outcome would be beneficial. If you just tortured a man for shits and giggles then that is ethically wrong.

But i'd definitely torture someone to save lives
Dec 15 2010 5:05PM
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Bar_Down
Posts: 5896 - Karma: 395
ya well thats the thing, how do you justify what is beneficial and what isnt, because every time someone gets tortured, its is beneficial to someone, whether a "good guy" is being tortured by the "bad guy" or the other way around
Dec 15 2010 5:07PM
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Amadeus
Posts: 67 - Karma: 13
let him go. he is a human being
Dec 15 2010 5:09PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,851
so you wouldnt toture someone even if you knew that by doing it you would save lives?
Dec 15 2010 5:14PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
If you torture someone they tell you whatever you want to hear. It never has and never will yield any useful information as countless investigators can tell you. Statistically, morally, ethically, and humanly it is much better to gain the trust of a prisoner and use incentive such as reduced jail time or family visits to get information.

It is absolutely disgusting that our government uses these tactics. A society that uses torture to preserve liberty doesn't deserve it. That is why our freedoms are being taken away one by one in the name of safety.

There is not one documented case where torture has saved lives, it takes us to the same level as the animals we are fighting.
Dec 15 2010 5:16PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
God shut the fuck up, you can't know that torture would save any lives. That is a loaded question that has only one correct answer that is used by fear mongering fucks to justify evil actions. Torture never accomplishes anything.
Dec 15 2010 5:19PM
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207
Posts: 8969 - Karma: 3,846
waterboard him
Dec 15 2010 5:22PM
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Broseph_Stalin
Posts: 3745 - Karma: 177

wow you're such a liberal n00b! tourture in america is nothing compared to other countries although it still is bad. keep tourture because it has the most potentail out of all other methods to get life saving information. if it doesn't work, then at least americans wont be looked on as wuses. 

Dec 15 2010 5:26PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
slow clapping
Dec 15 2010 5:26PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,851
true, but in a terrorist situation, you often dont have time to gain a terrorists trust. it would also be difficult to have a terrorist trust you, seeing that their whole idea was to kill you. i guess you could give them a fake ally though or something
Dec 15 2010 5:26PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
you dont get it. of course, if you was 100% sure that you could save thousands of life with torturing someone who is 100% guilty, its not a dilemma imo.

but the problem is that people use such exaggerated examples to justify torture in general.
Dec 15 2010 5:30PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
I remember when America was held to a higher standard than the rest of the world.

I am sure you guys can come up with "What if" scenarios where torture would be necessary, but in reality it just doesn't work that way. People who are being tortured for information will just say whatever they can to get it to stop, it is impossible to sort through real and false information and is very detrimental to investigations.

Plus it was outlawed by the Geneva Convention, that alone should be enough. I know terrorists don't follow international law, but if you want to fight a war on their level then we are just as evil as they are.
Dec 15 2010 5:35PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,851
i am in now way saying that toture works 100% of the time. i was just asking ns if in a situation where they had a terrorist who knew vital details to a plot that would kill many, what they would do
Dec 15 2010 6:17PM
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thesheik
Posts: 1488 - Karma: 18
a few of the last posts in this thread have restored my faith in ns.
Dec 15 2010 6:29PM
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gmack24
Posts: 4636 - Karma: 31
Just wrote a paper on the exact same concept. Torturing him would be a utilitarian approach, personally I think it's more detrimental in the long run (ie world view of U.S. based on guantanamo, and prisoners released seeking revenge) however, if I knew I could extract information from a terrorist I 100% knew had info on an upcoming terrorist attack, I'd hannibal lector his ass.
Dec 15 2010 6:32PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
if youre 100% sure he has the info, its not even a question imo.

the problem is that in real life, you will never know and lets face it, guantanom is one huge joke, albeit not a funny one.
Dec 15 2010 6:34PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,851

the question doesnt state that you know that you will get answers if you torture him.

what would you do in the situation i described?

Dec 15 2010 6:37PM
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jester8589
Posts: 346 - Karma: 15
i think the label terrorist is being over used today. its kinda fucking ridiculous. we have all these terrorists and by calling them that we just give them more power. all they are is common criminals don't give them the satisfaction.
Dec 15 2010 6:40PM
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drumbumocdp
Posts: 3226 - Karma: 1,078
Im going to throw out racism into this argument. There are people who would suspect someone of being a terrorist just because of their skin color. Many prisoners in Guantanamo Bay have no record, no ties to terrorism, no proof, and no charges against them. They are innocent people who are wrongly imprisoned, stripped of their rights all together.

If you have some reason where you are absolutely sure that this person has information, and there is no other way out, there may be a time and place where torture is necessary. But if someone has gone through so much planning to pull something off at the magnitude you are talking, im sure they would rather take one for the team than let you into their head.
Dec 15 2010 6:43PM
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captainEMERICA
Posts: 1386 - Karma: 122
Your logic is flawed. You are saying that because he breaks a law and disrespects the foundation of our society, that we should too break the law and tortue him. Would this not make us no better than he is? I believe that we should tortue if the situation calls for it but what you just said is silly.
Dec 15 2010 6:44PM
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LIL_WAT
Posts: 1900 - Karma: 475

Torture is wrong. It has no guarantee of revealing any new information and sets a dangerous precedent in that the Government can do whatever it likes, in the name of 'security'.

Dec 15 2010 6:45PM
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Bar_Down
Posts: 5896 - Karma: 395
dog, i was half kidding when i said that, and someone else wrote exactly the same shit you just wrote and i agreed with him
Dec 15 2010 6:46PM
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captainEMERICA
Posts: 1386 - Karma: 122
sorry dog, i guess my sarcasm meter was broked, but then again so was that guy's, ease up, dog
Dec 15 2010 6:49PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
ok, 100% probability that you receive info to save multiple lives and 100% confirmation that this is a bad guy that would be out taking aforementioned lives if he wasnt imprisoned, i think its completely logic to torture the guy and do whatever is needed.

like if a guy says: "wazzup folks (at the police), i got this huge bomb placed under a kindergarden and i hate baby seals. the bomb will detonate in two hours, unless a deactivation code is entered which nobody else knows but me." and he is totally serious about it and doesnt enter the police station with a straight jacket, well then, do what you need to do.



BUT i dont think that you can get even close to this situation (the 100%/100% thingy), so in reality, torture has no fucking legitimation.

again: in your theoretic model YES, but i dont think that its a good representation of what torture means in real life and for which reasons it was/is used.

Dec 15 2010 6:51PM
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Bar_Down
Posts: 5896 - Karma: 395
bro, im fuckin chillin bro, dont fuckin tell me to calm down when im perfectly chill, you're the one whos totally un-chill bro. fuckin chiillllll bro!
Dec 15 2010 6:51PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51257 - Karma: 157,315
As much as you bitch and whine I agree with your post.
Dec 15 2010 6:53PM
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