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Is rocker here to stay?

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Sklar
Posts: 8863 - Karma: 31,577
Almost all will agree that rocker is nice in pow. Now, seeing park skis and non-pow skis with rocker popping up, and companies, like k2, putting rocker on almost their entire line do you think this is a progression of ski construction, like straight to shaped? Or is it just a fad/gimmick that will die out in non-pow skis, or all skis?
Discuss
Mar 13 2010 2:00PM
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Shadows
Posts: 8068 - Karma: 42
yea its a fad lol. should only be a matter of time.
Mar 13 2010 2:01PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6638 - Karma: 10,532
Definitely in pow & park skis, and many all mountain skis will keep it.  I think some element of rocker will be here to stay, like at the very least early rise in the tip, but  I don't think it will fully and completely replace traditionally cambered skis.  They have a unique feel to their own and I think there will be a demand for that for a long time.
Mar 13 2010 2:04PM
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brenker
Posts: 3188 - Karma: 71
rocker gets more and more advanced every year man, skis that have normal camber but early rise tips are whats driving the progression of all mountain skis that can handle any terrain...rocker isnt going anywhere, if anything itll be incorporated into the majority of companies lines...its like wider skis, they only have advantages
Mar 13 2010 2:06PM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
regular camber and rocker are both legit designs and are suited for different skis...

i don't think rocker will replace regular camber or vice versa.

reg. camber is 100% necessary for carving
but rocker is nice in pow and for creating forgiving parkskis that wont catch an edge on sketchy landings....

the future will probably be more rockered skis, but no way regular camber will disappear....


Mar 13 2010 3:09PM
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dubaiski
Posts: 961 - Karma: 37

i dont really see the appeal of rockered skis in the park but the early tail and tip i see so that you dont catch edges ect. For a cetain extent there will from now on be a certain amount of rocker in park skis with rockers but i hope that it will die down and only be on a couple of the line.

Im quite drunk now and dint know if that made sence but anyway thats my 2 cents

Mar 13 2010 3:30PM
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W.C_Steeze
Posts: 128 - Karma: 10
i have looked at camber to rocker and i think rocker might be here to stay because the pros use it there will be a higher demand for wat the pros ride so its a 70% chance it will stay
Mar 13 2010 4:45PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 65
its not going to take over... but it will stay.

any recreational skier, or even older generation skier will stick with traditional camber skis.

as far as all mountain skis (like my moment tahoes), i think a lot of companies like K2 flocked to rocker but will slowly come back. some skis will be rockered and some will go back to traditional.

pow will definitely move towards rocker and reverse camber.

and when i say rocker i mean early rise, and reverse camber is, well, reverse camber
Mar 13 2010 5:27PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
I think we're still in the early days of the rocker revolution, it will go a long way and undergo many more developmental incorporations still.
Mar 13 2010 5:49PM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
No it isn't. If you have full rocker the ski is already pre-bent and therefor a rockered ski will turn faster than a cambered ski. SG and DH skis has rocker and flat camber.
Mar 13 2010 6:15PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6638 - Karma: 10,532
it will be interesting to see how reverse camber/early rise will work in the race scene because even though that reverse/early rise/flat ski is already "bent" for the turn shape and it potentially enters the turn faster, it is slower to exit that same turn because of it.
Mar 13 2010 6:30PM
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Avifarer
Posts: 5926 - Karma: 598
every ski i buy from now on will have atleast some sort of tip rise. not necessarily tail but 100% tip for sure
Mar 13 2010 7:00PM
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TheGreen
Posts: 504 - Karma: 41
I think it's definitely gonna stay. As soon as I switched from ordinary cambered skis to rockered I had so much more fun in the park, and just riding around. Super hard to catch edges, super playful and buttery. Add camber underfoot and you've got a perfect park ski IMO. Normal camber still has it's appeal, it just depends on what you do and what you like.
Mar 13 2010 7:06PM
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onearmwanderer
Posts: 1153 - Karma: 31
not true at all really. so much older people at my mountain are excited on changes in skis and tons of older people have skis with rocker.
Mar 13 2010 9:01PM
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ski_ENDUB
Posts: 2535 - Karma: 86
I was just thinking about this the other day. Rocker is the future like 4-strokes on motorcycles. It seems like every year there are more and more rockered skis on the market and not just pow skis and I think that this trend is just going to continue
Mar 13 2010 9:04PM
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iFail
Posts: 2066 - Karma: 65

It's a fad, and so is fat skis and reverse sidecut skis, and powder in general.


What I've noticed is that some companies have really stupid rocker shapes.  Too many have some well thought out rocker, with a full normal tip after it to do a great job raping the design.  On some skis the normal tip is there for a reason and they can be great skis(like Wrenegades), but on other skis I think there should be no normal tip at all yet there is(an example is 08 ARGs, and for 09 and '10(both different) armada made it just a rocker design with no tip...much smoother, good job!).

Mar 13 2010 9:08PM
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ReetsAdeets
Posts: 1531 - Karma: 611
Powders a fad??
Mar 13 2010 9:28PM
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TheGreen
Posts: 504 - Karma: 41
well with global warming... it might just be. And to the other guy, what do you mean by skis with no tip?
Mar 13 2010 9:41PM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 268

since they are better than normal camber in the park, yes they are. dual camber and rocker works so well.

Mar 13 2010 10:10PM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24704 - Karma: 29,687
i use rockered skis everywhere... they're amazing. the end.
Mar 16 2010 2:23PM
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-ShredTheGnar-
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 111
are you special? Have you ever seen or rode a SG/DH ski?
They have hardly any tip and a small ammount of regular camber. definatly nothing like a rocker buddy.
Mar 16 2010 3:04PM
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schmies
Posts: 2032 - Karma: 505
Oh yes.

Rocker is here to stay in everything except pipe skis and racing/DH skis. You will see slight variations by everybody for park and different on piste applications and you will see more serious rocker applications on all-mountain and big-mountain skis.

Mar 16 2010 4:26PM
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CDdesign
Posts: 1015 - Karma: 92
I want a rocker ski with Atomic's VARIO CUT tech.... plus...... LIQUIDMETAL and INTELLIGENCE from HEAD!!!!

Can u say super ski?... lol just do it to say its been done
Mar 16 2010 4:29PM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
If you leave the tail cambered/flat the loss would pretty much be non-existing. A fully-rockered race ski will probably never happen.
Mar 25 2010 10:07PM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
Probably, I'm pretty short...
My eyes works perfectly and I've ridden a bunch of different SG/DH skis. The new ones has "early rise" (if you don't like the term rocker). It's there to get more air in under the ski making less friction. If 4FRNT can call the early rise on EHP rocker, I sure can call them speedskis rockered ;)
Mar 25 2010 10:11PM
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minibus4
Posts: 517 - Karma: 13
Hell YA!! Rocker still possesses power still to be unleashed, fucking love rocker!!
Mar 25 2010 10:43PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,746
Still seems like a lot of people are unclear about rocker, early rise, reverse camber, etc.

It doesn't help that pretty much every company has a different term for essentially the same design. (elf shoe? REALLY Armada?)

A ski that is rockered (depending on manufacturer) is not necessarily reverse cambered or even entirely decambered. Some "rockered" skis have traditional camber underfoot while both tip and tail feature early rise, meaning that the ski will enter and exit turns and handle on hardpack in a fairly traditional manner–the key difference being of course that the skis running length (how much of the ski is actually in contact with the snow) will be much shorter. For some companies, the term rockered always refers to the ski being totally decambered (aka flat) under foot with early rise in tip and tail.

The term "reverse camber" refers to a ski that is actually shaped like the botom of a rocking horse. Obviously, a truly reverse cambered ski really only functions in deep snow. A good way to think of this is that a reverse cambered ski is always rockered, but a rockered ski is not necessarily reverse cambered.

Companies like Surface, among others, are now playing around with variable and multi-rockered designs. Surface calls their particular blend "3 stage rocker"...meaning that the angle or degree of rocker is variable, or at a certain point in the running length, the rocker is more dramatic.

Rowen is spot on, Rocker is here to stay as it truly does serve a worthwhile function in almost any style of skiing, other than the obvious exceptions, but it will surely change and evolve as more companies experiment with different designs.

I don't think you'll ever see traditionally cambered skis disappear, as some people just truly prefer the flex and feel of cambered skis. Shit, I don't think anyone at this point would argue against sidecut (parabolic LOLZ) making turning skis much easier while allowing the skier to adopt a more athletic and aggressive stance, but I'll be damned if there aren't some people out there who truly prefer the feel of 205cm skinny straight boards. But, as more and more people try rockered boards, more and more people fall in love with the idea.


Mar 25 2010 10:46PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 65
thats like jumping on a trampoline that is sagging in.

the camber is what pops you and holds you in a turn. the pushing of the tips and tails against the snow helps carve out the turn, and the camber help you release. the ski also curves on the snow as you push it, rather than the tips and tails being pre curved, so you wont get the same carve.
the camber is also what holds the ski in ice, the pressure that it puts on the edges of the ski
Mar 25 2010 10:51PM
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Gnome_in_Gnarnia
Posts: 163 - Karma: 13
I think rocker will definitely not go away, but it has yet to be fine-tuned. Ski designs are going crazy with rocker right now, my guess is they will figure out where rocker is best suited and the crazy designs will mellow down. Its here to stay for pow skis, we'll see if it will last in the park.
Mar 25 2010 11:11PM
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minibus4
Posts: 517 - Karma: 13
All day everyday I use my powder rocker skis in the park (surface one life) Its by far the sickest ski ever made for anything and even though I have no edges left from doing too many rails on them I can still control myself hella good on ice, charge through AK lines, bomb moguls, go over 73 mph through chop. I just think some people cant ride rockers.
Mar 25 2010 11:18PM
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madsskaar
Posts: 492 - Karma: 191
i hope so!
Mar 26 2010 5:11AM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
Thats why we have skis with camber and tiprocker and so on... And if you can carve properly (dramaticly decrease the turn radius specified for the ski) you will still accelerate out of the turn and the ski will still decamber or curve on the snow, hell even ski ice, if the rocker is designed good, that is. Or if the ski has tiprocker + camber or tiprocker + flat camber...

My NT's has A LOT of pop out of the turn, not quite as much as a WC SL ski but skis like most of the hendryx (www.hendryxskis.se) is damn close and they're fully rockered.

But I totally agree that a rockered ski needs better technique too behave really good on icy groomers. I
Mar 26 2010 12:55PM
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abc8tr8we98g
Posts: 498 - Karma: 25
i dont know if ill ever buy a ski without rocker in the future...I love the skis that are flat under foot with generous rocker for pow and the rocker and camber combo skis are a blast for park and all mountain skiing
Mar 26 2010 12:57PM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
I just got the word, Ross and Head is now using rocker on their race skis and one of the Salomon riders in WC ordered a pair of rockered GS-skis
Mar 26 2010 1:01PM
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grambo
Posts: 1125 - Karma: 93

Seriously? Do you have a link about this? I've never seen an SG/DH ski with early rise. I understand the air argument, but I would think that would be negated by the additional drag (both on snow and in the air). For GS, it doesn't really make sense, you need camber or you aren't going to be able to accelerate in the turns.

I'd be interested to read what degrees they would be experimenting with.

Mar 26 2010 2:01PM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
Yes, serious that is. No links, a friend of mine is a racer on a really high level, he told me.

Low-profile tiprocker/early rise doesn't affect wind resistance more then the positive effects of less friction and faster turn.initiation apprently. You can accelerate in turn without camber but they seem to keep a small amount of camber. It's really about forcing the ski too bend more than it wants too, woth or without the camber.

The hendryx skis (www.hendryxskis.se) is a perfect example of rockered skis that totally kill it on groomers... Serisously...
Mar 31 2010 4:19AM
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DUKES
Posts: 5149 - Karma: 686
k2's park skis are gonna suck for there is no camber with the rocker, so no pop in the ski
Mar 31 2010 2:09PM
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Mr_pretzel
Posts: 4616 - Karma: 1,289
Pop comes from your legs.
Go to a gym if you can't pop without camber.
Mar 31 2010 2:11PM
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DUKES
Posts: 5149 - Karma: 686
it's just nice having that extra pop, i don't want a ski thats dead
Mar 31 2010 2:15PM
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mak
Posts: 700 - Karma: 167
yes it is. in the pow, a rockered ski just makes so much more sense than cambered. as for the park, it's a personal preference for people and it's seems to be a welcomed change. but as it's been said earlier, rocker will go through some modifications to fine tune it to specific uses
Mar 31 2010 3:40PM
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PhuzzyWuzzy
Posts: 358 - Karma: 82
I don't believe this.  The whole point of camber is to help put increased pressure on the tips and tails to increase edge hold and increase acceleration in and out of turns.  Rocker = less effective edge.  Why would they put rocker on any form of race skis?  So they can blow through the crud on the race course?  Seriously though wtf. 
Apr 2 2010 12:21AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Just the fact that a ski incorporates rocker into the design does not mean it automatically has flat camber. For skiing deep powder, a flat ski or reverse camber ski is freaking awesome, as it allows you to effortlessly surf the good stuff, leaning forward or back easily to adjust balance.

Rocker with normal camber = butterability and less tip hooking while still maintaining lots of pop and stability. Rocker started on soft huge powder skis - wait till stiff but rockered park skis really get out there. Its different, takes a while to learn, but its way, way fun. I really think once pro riders start riding these skis and major companies start catching on to the design, you'll see a lot of people riding them.
Apr 2 2010 6:27AM
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SkiTheYeast
Posts: 2310 - Karma: 392
your legs are what pop you the ski only helps you a little
Apr 2 2010 7:54AM
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schmies
Posts: 2032 - Karma: 505
At an ISPO conference on industry trends, the legendary racer Hermann Maier, arguably one of the best ski racers ever got up in front of the whole crowd and said rocker is the future.

Pretty heavy statement from a person who made his career skiing on ice.

Apr 2 2010 11:13AM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 65
on jumps. not racing. the camber and side cut in a race ski is EVERYTHING
Apr 2 2010 11:46AM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
if its not K2 is fucked...

Rockered skis have their place, just like cambered skis.

I know most of you were born before this, but go back 15 years, from 1995ish-2002ish we were going through this same shit with the sidecut thing. It was almost like there was a race to see who could get the tightest turn radius and shortest ski. You ended up with shit like the Atomic Metron. Many of these skis carved these really cool tight turns on ice, but sucked balls in soft snow or anytime you did not wanted to go a little straighter.
In the end we settled with a wide range of sidecuts; with some even having reverse sidecut. With out taking things like taper and variable/elliptical sidecut into effect you find a bell curve with the peak being at around 18-23m.

I predict the same thing will happen with rocker. Not everything will be rockered, but a fair amount will be and they won't all be hellbent style rocker.

One thing to consider with rockered skis is that you lose edge pressure. Tip rocker makes all mountain skis very easy to ski, as many people will find with next years K2 line. However it does make the ski less responsive, since you have less pressure on the edge up front. K2 all mountain skis have always been boring as fuck though, so you won't really notice any negligible effects with them.

Think of rocker/camber as the suspension of the ski. adding rocker to a ski is like adjusting the suspension (this is tweeked with flex too). You give a ski some rocker and it is like adjusting the suspension of a car. A little bit of tip rocker can turn an all mountain ski into a lexus. really comfortable to drive but its not a tuned up STi. The tuned up STi with stiff suspension is not a 'comfort car' but it is fun as fuck to drive.

Skis are similar. You will see the people who really like to carve aggressively want to keep their cambered skis. For people who want more all mountain versatility or a smother ride rocker will start to catch on.
Apr 2 2010 11:54AM
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schmies
Posts: 2032 - Karma: 505
Yeah, who would even believe all these professional athletes helping us design and test our skis:)
You also make the very incorrect assumption that ANY sort of rocker takes away the snap and rebound of a ski, as with your Lexus analogy. Having rocker does not mean the ski has no camber. FAR from it. A simple movement of the FCP and ACP retains impeccable hard snow performance but gives you a quickness edge to edge unlike the ski's regular constructed version.

Case in point is every single test we did with the new AMP and TNINE series skis on all conditions from bullet proof ice to corn snow to crud. The minimal rocker amounts blew away the previous constructions. That is for straight up carving skis. We all know what Powder Rocker does and Jib Rocker is working pretty awesome according to all the athletes on the skis. The truth will emerge:)


Apr 2 2010 3:56PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
You are right in saying that you don't lose all the edge grip just by adding rocker. However anytime you do put rocker on part of a ski the edge under the rocker will not put as much natural preasure in the snow as it would have otherwise.
You are also right in saying that a small bit of tip rocker helps a ski go from edge to edge. I am not denying that. The reason it does this is that it is not putting as much preasure on the snow (less grip).

And I know that it really helped the k2 line this year, since I have skied all of the new models with it. However I disagree with you when you talk about it still working on carving skis. K2 does not make carving skis. You make all mountain skis with narrow waists. There is a difference. It's not to say that the skis are bad. They are quite the opposite, and the rocker really works well with them. But if you are trying to tell me that an avenger 82 carbon, contact4x4 or tigershark will do it's job better with tip rocker I am going to disagree with you. Rocker has it's place, bit to say it makes every ski better is wrong.

As for your last sentince, k2 is making that gamble, and I think it is going to work well for you. However k2's all mountain market is different from that of other companies.
Apr 2 2010 6:10PM
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schmies
Posts: 2032 - Karma: 505
Right Billy thanks for clarifying the products we create and sell. Happy you can tell me what they do. I'm glad those all-mountain skis with narrow waists definitely are not for carving. Because then they would be umm well carving skis...so when you ski, you have to stay flat based, skid your way down the hill, or make real gentle turns, making sure you don't carve in any bit of a high performance fashion.

I'll be sure to make that point in the catalog.

To say rocker makes EVERY ski better IS wrong...which is why I never said that.
Apr 2 2010 7:19PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
They are all mountain skis. That's what it says in the catalog. I am not hating on them. They work really well for a lot of people and I sell more of them then almost all the other 'all mountain' skis combined and will continue to do so since the line continues to be very good at being all mountain skis. What they are not, however is true dedicated front side skis, in my honest opinon they are too damp to really compare to more dedicated carving skis. It's not that you can't carve on them, it's just that they don't grab an edge as well as some other ones. For 90% of people out there this is really not a big deal. But the other 10% do notice it. Which is why I was talking of a bell curve for rocker/camber with that 10% being on one end and the far end of the spctrum being pontoon/helbent style skis.

K2 'apache' skis don't do it for me, Since they are narrower then you or I want in an every day ski. For a ton of people they are perfect though. You or I would be happier using the new Seth as an every day ski.

I think this is really just a miscomunication due to my terrible comisition skills when writing from my phone in class
Apr 2 2010 8:42PM
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Chompo.
Posts: 4952 - Karma: 88
i think rocker will come into almost all skis except race skis. and racing is a huge part of our sport.
Apr 2 2010 10:49PM
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