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Let's be realistic

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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
I know of fewer people with more relevant expertise, personal experience, cultural ties, and basic cognitive intelligence, in that combination, than Fouad Ajami (Professor at Johns Hopkins University)

He is a Lebanese born 65 year old academic who arrived in the US when he was 18. He is now the Majid Khadduri professor and Director of Middle East Studies at Johns Hopkins.

I'm eating dinner right now, watching CNN and just listened to him bring up some points very congruent with my way of thinking.

He is very realistic.

The points he brings up are:

1. It does not matter who is the Head of our State, from Clinton, to Bush, to Obama, Muslims still hate us. It was not the actions of any one president that created this Anti-Americanism. Public opinion polls taken in Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia all tell one thing: over 70% of the people hate us, and they hate all of our Heads of State equally.

2. This year, Obama went to the Middle East to give a speech in Cairo, where he announced the war on terror was over, and it was time to start rebuilding our relationship with the world. Basically he said the invasionary moves are over, and its now time to talk nice to the people. He came back with his tail between his legs, and a rising insurgency in Afghanistan, a failed Al-qaeda terrorist plot to blow up a plane on Christmas, and a highly orchestrated al-Qaeda double agent suicide bombing mission later, public opinion shows Anti-Americanism is just as high in turkey and Egypt as it was before his speech, and during the presidency of W. Bush.

3. John Kerry attempted the same peaceful diplomatic approach to Iran, extending an offer for talks but was firmly rejected and declared "not welcome in Iran."

4. Its pathetic how these softies defend the Arab-Muslim and Persian-Muslim countries and still have nothing to show for it. Its even more pathetic that they defend the very people who want to kill them for their values.

5. This Anti-Americanism has a root cause we have yet to understand. When asked, the people of Arab-Muslim and Persian-Muslim countries cannot give a straight answer. We don't know what drives people to twist Islam into a fighting tool.



I have said for a very long time, the problem is not anything but the religion itself. The religion itself, not its leaders, its interpreters, or its followers, demands hostility to those who don't believe the same. The degree of hostility varies from very peaceful "moderate" Muslims to al-Qaeda, but the hostility cannot be ignored.

The book of Surah al-Tawba, translated as "The repentence" is not just a few cherry-picked quotes from the Qur'an. It is an entire book devoted towards spreading hate. This is not the Hadith, or any other post- Muhamed book, this is a Qur'an book:

Verse: 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans (Ar: Mushrikiin) wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Verse 5:14: "From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done."

Ignominy shall be their portion [the Jews'] wheresoever they are found... They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them... because they disbelieve the revelations of Allah and slew the Prophets wrongfully... because they were rebellious and used to transgress. [Surah 111, v. 112] And thou wilt find them [the Jews] the greediest of mankind....[Surah 11, v. 96]

Evil is that for which they sell their souls... For disbelievers is a terrible doom.[Surah II, v. 90]

Taste ye [Jews] the punishment of burning.[Surah III, v. 18 1]

Proclaim a woeful punishment to those that hoard up gold and silver.... Their treasures shall be heated in the dres of Hell, and their foreheads, sides and backs branded with them. . . . 'Taste then the punishment which is your due. [Surah IX, v. 35]

"They [the Jews] are the heirs of Hell.... They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say ... When evil befalls you they rejoice." Ibid. [Surah 111, v. 117-120]

Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment.[Surah IV, v. 56]

Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews.... And of their taking usury ... and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretenses. We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom.[Surah IV, v. 160, 161]

Allah hath cursed them [the Jews] for their disbelief.[Surah IV, v. 46]

They [the Jews] will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say, but more violent is the hatred which their breasts conceal.[Surah III, v. 117-120]

In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.[Surah IV, v. 101]

And thou seest [Jews and Christians] vying one with another in sin and transgression and their devouring of illicit gain. Verily evil is what they do. Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their evilspeaking and their devouring of illicit gain? .... evil is their handiwork.[Surah V, v. 62, 63]

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. [Surah V, v. 51]

The most vehement of mankind in hostility [are] the Jews and the idolators.[Surah V, v. 82]

Fight against such of those [Jews and Christians] ... until they pay for the tribute readily, being brought low.[Surah IX, v. 29]

Allah fighteth against them [the Jews]. How perverse they are![Surah IX, v. 30]

Believers, many are the rabbis and the monks who defraud men of their possessions... Proclaim a woeful punishment to those that hoard up gold and silver and do not spend it in Allah's cause.... their treasures shall be heated in the fire of Hell.... [Surah IX, v. 26-34]

They [the Jews] spread evil in the land .... [Surah V, v. 62-66]

[The Jews] knowingly perverted [the word of Allah], know of nothing except lies ... commit evil and become engrossed in sin. [Surah II, v. 71-85]



That was a giant text wall. The point of the matter is, in Arab and Persian countries there is no such thing as moderate Muslims we can reach out to. They hate us. Its that simple. They hate us and its not anything W. did or anything else. They hate our VALUES.


Why is that so hard to digest??? Someone brings up the fact that perhaps Islam as it is practiced in the Middle East, and given its natural hostility, might be the root cause of their hatred, and that person gets branded as "ignorant" or "naive."


I say to those who call us "ignorant" or "naive", on what basis do you call us that? Have you not opened your eyes to the sad truth yet? That no diplomacy or aid giving or speech giving or amnesty will win the hearts and minds of entrenched non-secular Muslims.


It is you who are "naive".



Just my 2 cents. Let the Karma bashing begin!


Jan 6 2010 8:07PM
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ski8990
Posts: 5961 - Karma: 19
I guess we just have a fundamental difference of opinion with the Us vs. Them question. I don't think that you can sight the fact that Obama's speech did not transform Middle-Eastern anti-American sentiment as evidence that a more dialogic approach is stupid. Obviously one speech isn't going to change years and years of cultural divisions. However, I see the Us. Vs. Them mentality as a dead end. Once you create that mentality, never-ending war is the only outcome. You can't "win" a war over ideology. History has shown the attrocities of a system of otherization.
Jan 6 2010 10:01PM
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A.0.spin
Posts: 472 - Karma: 186
I also am a strong believer in the "end domestic use of foreign oil" debate. This is of course achievable only with better technology and will take a couple decades but once the extremists are out of money because nobody is buying their fucking oil anymore, they will be forced to adapt.

So I, being an engineer, say this: stay in school kids and stick with science, it will get you a lot farther than any religion will.
Jan 6 2010 10:01PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
See Cold War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_war
Jan 6 2010 10:02PM
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emopoppins
Posts: 3996 - Karma: 269
so. what is your point?

i read the thread and you seem to say, muslims dont like us, nothing we can do it, and the only thing that anyone can say is, we should just get out of the middle east, and you come back with, i agree, if this didn't happen.

so are we supposed to fuck them up or something? make them hate us more. there is nothing we can do here, i'd rather leave them alone than spend money while they fuck us up.
Jan 6 2010 10:04PM
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ski8990
Posts: 5961 - Karma: 19
See Vietnam? See the section of the Cold War called "Red Scare" or "McCarthyism"? Come on man, are you trying to tout the Cold War as a GOOD thing?
Jan 6 2010 10:08PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
approach it like the Cold War. Intensify pressure with a few small calculated wars like Afghanistan and Iraq (before you go saying the wars aren't small, consider Vietnam claimed nearly 60,000 KIA's compared to the combined ~5,000 in Iraq and Afghanistan). Maybe influence their culture there.This part sucks, but its necessary and almost over.

Deny economic amenities to some, but give them to others in close proximity so they can see what's goin on. I.E. let American business secularize UAE and maybe even Saudi Arabia and let surrounding countries marvel at the prosperity. Let them understand their beliefs are creating grievances. I think the people of Iran are beginning to feel this impact already.

The CIA needs to do a much better job of understanding the situation. A high level intelligence officer released a statement this weekend that said CIA analysts in Afghanistan and other middle eastern countries "feel their jobs are more like fortune telling than actual detective work."

The CIA should recognize the Iranian peoples' desire for revolution, and yah know, help'em out a little bit. lol.

We need to start influencing culture more, not just theirs but ours. We need to stop making movies like Body of Lies, or the new Matt Damon movie, or at the least hedge it with more balance so our own domestic people will pressure/ vote our government into a different course of action. One that actually identifies Islam's entrenchment in their government and culture as the problem. The American people need to quit sympathizing for people who hate our guts and want nothing more than to see us all die. But that's how they were raised, they honestly don't know any better. By influencing culture, we can play a profound role as pop culture did during the 70s and 80s.

Finally, I know you guys are gonna hate me for this, but I think we can rebuild Iraq to have a more secular government. There were no deaths in the month of December, the first time since the war started. We are making progress.
Jan 6 2010 10:12PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
no not at all, I'm saying it can be done when necessary, and we will emerge stronger because of it. The process and means sucks, but the ends, while not worth it, are still necessary.
Jan 6 2010 10:13PM
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Skierguy1234
Posts: 1684 - Karma: 88
what we need to do is stop wasting money on a war, start spending that money on finding alternative fuels, then once we find alternative fuels we can watch these middle east countries go back to being kind of irrelevant in the world and let them do whatever the fuck they want with their only resource/reason the world acknowledges them.
Jan 6 2010 10:32PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
that won't stop them from blowing us up though. And if it weren't for that, what else would we give a shit about what the fuck syria does
Jan 6 2010 10:44PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
I was actually with you a little bit when you declared that its no one presidents or parties fault for America's hatred in the Middle East, but then you had to go get all criticize the left and Obama. Pity.

Religion is belief. Every religion has a defining set of doctrines and principles, and humans have to interpret these in order to apply them to life. Few people live "by the book" - save the dude who wrote "A Year of Living Biblically", and he only focused on somewhere under 1000 of the bibles separate rules and commandments. Just because a religious text, perhaps the most interpretive form of religious principle, says one thing means effectively shit in what its so called followers actually act out. A full 3/4 of our country identifies themselves as Christian, yet I have not heard of a single case in which an adulterer was stoned to death (a proper treatment as delineated by the bible). According to your claim, we should similarly find it absolutely shocking that out of the millions of American Christians, none of these laws were enforced last year, in religious or common society:

Any person who curseth his father or mother must be killed
~Leviticus 20:9

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be cut off from their people
~Leviticus 20:18

People who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God
~Leviticus 21:17-18

Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death
~Deuteronomy 13:5


Words in scripture are nearly meaningless. Its how they are interpreted that sets the standard for the society that follows them. The bible, qur'an, (take your pic of religious texts) are so diverse and lengthy that given enough time and perseverance, you could draw out text that with proper interpretation will support almost any claim.

Now, I'm sure by now you're bursting with "But the Qur'an is so much different and violent in its text!", and strange as it may seem, I agree with you. Its a product of when this religion was founded. At the time of its inception, the Middle East was in chaos, and the rising religion as a useful tool to unite its followers against outside enemies. I dont deny at all its got a lot of violent messages and devices that encouraging destroying ones enemies. However, its all in ones interpretation.

As for America's recent position on the average Middle Eastern Muslims shit list, what would you do if your leaders sold out and sold your countries wealth away to the West? We've given them MTV and Paris Hilton, in a culture that has yet to embrace equal rights. Of course there is a culture backlash, what would you expect? Combine that with our support of Israel, meddling in foreign affairs and the two invasions and occupations of our soldiers... I really cant see how you would believe they're hatred is completely unjust.

I just wrote a lot. Dinner is over, I have to go make more skis, and its been fun, but I wont be back, probably, to post. Sorry its one sided, living the life though.
Jan 6 2010 11:21PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
What? Giving them MTV and Paris Hilton lets them kill us? If my leaders sold my countries wealth away, my hatred would be directed at them. The fact that they direct it at us, no matter how oppressed the people, is wrong on their part.

Your arguments are so shitty... Meddling in foreign affairs? How so? How would that affect the Arab/Persian Muslim demographic? 2 invasions? Hey buddy, 9/11 happened BEFORE we invaded afghanistan... a pretty obvious fact you seemed to overlook. Support of Israel? How does that justify hatred and terrorism? Why don't they hate any of the others involved in making the country? the UN?

You found 4 cherry picked quotes from the Torah  referring to no identifiable nation of peoples upon prejudice. It asks only those who try to turn you away from god be put to death. It does not say, Muslims are simply your enemy, go forth and slay them. It poses hypotheticals and answers with an appropriate response of the timeframe.

You say the text reflects the historical context. Well the historical context hasn't changed much in the Middle East. To separate Islam from all those who currently practice Islam in a given region, is an act in simple bullshitting. You're whipping out the "it depends on what your definition of the word is, is" card. The statement, "Words in scripture are nearly meaningless. Its how they are interpreted that sets the standard for the society that follows them. " makes me want to face palm at the semantic nitpicks. They are one in the same. Religion consists of both scripture and its interpretation. And in its current state, Islam happens to hate.

I'm simply saying the better part of their hatred derives from the Qur'an itself and their hatred of our values. This idea contradicts the thinking of many for the better part of the 2000's where anyone who raised this point, including me, was ostracized as being ignorant or naive. Back then it was always the actions of America and Bush. No one ever considered it was their religion, reflecting both past and present conditions. But now even under Obama, with Muslim blood, hussein as his middle name (Foud Ajami's words, not mine), and giving out the olive branch in Cairo, they still hate us just as much.
Jan 7 2010 2:03AM
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ORski21
Posts: 423 - Karma: 12
Its not just a religious thing, its a cultural phenomenon.

 There are many people who can practice Islam and be totally peaceful. Its just that in the middle east they have begun to bread a culture of hate toward America. The schools teach it, the religious institutions teach it, and parents teach it, as well as many other people that interact with the youth of the middle east, and believe it or not, its pretty easy to convince someone to hate something if their entire world says to hate.

That's part of the problem, by fighting terrorism we are only fighting the symptoms of a perverted culture, not the causes of it. Middle eastern culture needs to be drastically changed, and to be honest  I think they would look even less kindly upon that if we tried to do that, given the failed exploits of American businesses to market things in their world. I say world because it is actually like they are living in a different world then us.

There is no culture so big any where else on the planet that is that different then ours, and that my friends is what I believe the root of the problem is.


Jan 7 2010 2:24AM
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Dainsey
Posts: 2263 - Karma: 378
this.
Jan 7 2010 2:35AM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
Ju arming the Mujahideen (notice the spelling since you are an arabic master of the 12th grade level) is a completely failed analogy. They were left to rot and dissipate as the Taliban swept the country. So yeah I would be pretty pissed too if a country helped me only to beat the Russians and then packed up ship when the real work had to be done. How can you not see Afghanistan as a not "offended" land. It was a tactical pawn in which people suffered for decades. You either a. don't know enough about the topic or b. can't conceptualize what it is like to be on the shit end of the stick.

Also stop saying 70% of Islamic people hate us. That is a fabricated number and any sort of credible data on that would be laughable. In fact you use a lot of percentages and I would be willing to challenge your internet savvy means of extracting information is heavily relied on just that, fabrication.

Also, I don't get where you get this profound idea that you are somehow a "good" writer, but why don't you try to get something published. I mean hey you respond to 13 year old kids enough on here with paragraphs and paragraphs of regurgitated realist political theorist dribble that you might as well try to make it worth your while. Do you even ski?


Jan 7 2010 3:33AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
It seems you're an expert at the Parker Brothers board game, Jump to Conclusions. Seriously, some of the exaggerations you've blown my points into are somewhat hilarious, but I guess I should expect it from you. If your method of ignoring all the context, history and multifaceted reasons is the primary one of choice when understanding the world we live in, fuck it. It sure would be nice if humanity dealt with issues with one clear cause resulting in one clear effect, just like those comic books. I really did like the first part of your post where you were quoting the scholar who was harping on all the many reasons the middle east is the way it is... but then you started thinking, and that resulted in a single target for our problems, the Qur'an. Really dude, 9/10 for on topic, but lets go for some depth next time.
Jan 7 2010 4:59AM
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Mr.Panda
Posts: 17711 - Karma: 564
So glad I was playing Dragon Age Origins and missed out on this.
Jan 7 2010 5:10AM
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.Roockley.
Posts: 3857 - Karma: 4,000
can't believe this hasn't turned into a shit storm

i was watching something on tv a couple of days ago about Gaza and it was in chaos with countries trying to help until they elected Hamas, with their heavy handedness (is that a word?) they have taken control of the area and its calmed down alot from what it was used to. The groups out there such as the Sunnis and the Shiites are fighting against each other now so if one of them takes control perhaps then we could start to talk politically to them and then if not have the whole of the UN actually step in and help with the problems. It seems to be a mass US and UK forces with not many others out there. If more forces go in and attempt to stop the radicalisation then things could calm down (shut down terrorist training camps, arrest/kill people that plan attacks). Let them keep the culture to some degree, just filter out all the crazy people with death to the US in their minds


Jan 7 2010 5:22AM
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buckers
Posts: 448 - Karma: 12
Yeah, life would have been real good for everyone if the Nazi's had taken over the whole of Europe. I guess back then you weren't as keen to jump into every single conflict as if it was your own problem.
Jan 7 2010 5:26AM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
Helping at all is better than not helping all together. Thats an even shittier arguement: we helped them but we didn't help them all the way??? How's that an argument? We could've just let them sit there and let the Soviets kill them... You are either a. retarded or b. are looking for loopholes. Them taking offense to us covertly funding them billions of dollars, how is that offensible? If theyre going to take greivances, take it upon the USSR not us. We weren't in a position to help them, but we did anyway. And for that we get 9/11 and jackasseslike you defending that.

Yeah fabricated number. Just live in your world of denial. This isn't some "internet" number, its studies conducted by Foud Ajami one of the leading Middle Eastern Studies professors in the world. Before you call him another ignorant American, know that he is not a naturalized American citizen.

Do you know what realist means? If so, you wouldn't characterize anything I've said here as "realist"

LOL i love you're gonna question my skiing now. Yes I ski. I consider myself decent for the limits on skiing every season from going to school... I ski a good amount and my bag of tricks can hold its own.
Jan 7 2010 1:18PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
You're not really offering any "depth" either. Pretty pathetic to call someones ideas as shallow or disregarding context and then simply leaving it there. Pretty predictable tactic.


How am i ignoring context? I'm not ignoring it, great I accept that historical context lent itself to the attitude of the Qur'an. But the historical context hasn't really changed, theyre still a shit hole run by religion. And even given the historical context, what's your point? The text doesn't reflect the contemporary, it only reflects the past? What are you trying to say? The Middle East is MORE hateful now if anything, so your argument is moot. One reason the Qur'an hates is because Jews "stole" from them. Well in their eyes, the Jews continue to "steal" from them. So how would bringing up historical context defend their practice, which I'm assuming you would do, help your argument in anyway? The text still reflects the contemporary, and as such, I categorize Islamic text and Islamic practice, as of now, as something one in the same.
Jan 7 2010 1:22PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
i was demonstrating how our military actions did not reflect a sense of "world police" but rather resulted out of necessity.
Jan 7 2010 1:24PM
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exile_ch
Posts: 715 - Karma: 609
I can't believe I just read that...

It's because of brainwashed christian republican kid like you that the entire world hated USA for 8 years...
And yes, I said "the entire world" and not only muslim.

Seriously, go kill yourself.
Jan 7 2010 2:29PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
let's just burn all the religious people, i don't like them anyways.
Jan 7 2010 2:33PM
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Mr.Panda
Posts: 17711 - Karma: 564
I hate generalizing.

I am conservative but think religion is some of the dumbest most retarded shit in the world. Especially Christianity and the other 2 of the "Big Three" so to speak.
Jan 7 2010 2:34PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
and youre a total dumbass... yeah its the "Republicans" the muslims hate... what a fucking retard. People like you are the problem. Did you not acknowledge the fact that Obama branched out the olive branch and yet still we have people trying to blow us up? Youre a naive ignorant asshole shut the fuck up.

For the record, this dumbass liberal international fuck started the shitstorm, and no one else.

Again, the typical liberal response: call him brainwashed, call him naive, offer nothing to the contrary.

Terrorism is a serious problem, its actually affecting our day-to day lives. This is a serious problem we can't live with. America for the better part of its history has not suffered this kind of threat. It is going to be a long hard journey to rememedy the situation as many of you have pointed out.

Here in the US, because we are a democracy and the President, from saturated multi-media, recieves heavy pressure from public opinion, any initiative taking multiple decades must have the moral support of the people. Because we are a democracy, our foreign policy reflects the way individuals, me, you, everyone thinks on an ethical level, rather than as a state institution. And because of that, in order to effectively and successfully engage in a prolonged battle against ideology, we need to garner public opinion against our enemy rather than having the interior become soft and sympathetic.

Mark my words, your sympathy will gain no positive influence from these people, they will hate you nonetheless. Your sympathy only weakens our resolve to persevere and stand behind our moral values.

The one good thing about Obama's Cairo speech is now we have the high ground. Looking at his intentions, he has failed, but at the least it was a brilliant strategic move, brilliant not in the battle of terrorism v US, but brilliant enough to help win the hearts and minds of the US. We hold the moral high ground. Whatever country you come from go fuck yourself, at least we tried to extend peace in a diplomatic approach. You can't pin shit on us you fucker.
Jan 7 2010 2:44PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
if only the US was the only country being attacked by radical religious groups, then maybe they'd have some authority as to how to deal with such religions.
Jan 7 2010 2:52PM
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Mr.Panda
Posts: 17711 - Karma: 564
Fuck it..







"Faith in your partner, your fellow men, your friends, is very important, because without it there's no mutual component to your relationship, and relationships are important. So faith plays an important role, but faith in people you don't know, faith in religious or political leaders or even people on stages, people who are popular in the public eye, you shouldn't have faith in those people. You should listen to what they have to say and use it."
-Greg Graffin

Click for larger image
Jan 7 2010 2:57PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
We also need to bridge the bipartisan gap when it comes to foreign policy. I think Obama has done a great job of that in recent months. When he first took office, he was rather naive, preaching peace, diplomacy, and relationship building. He almost had the aura that it was the United States disrupting peace, as if we 9/11'd the Muslim world first.

But i think recent events has brought him back to reality and he is doing a great job of motivating the left behind the United States of America.

This is not a Republican thing or a Democrat thing, this is an issue about the United States of America. We need not two opposing parties split upon who the enemy is. We ought to identify the enemy ( IE Islam in Arab and Persian countries, theocracy, nonsecularism, and totalitarianism ) quit being sympathetic to them, and stand behind our Country's core values, among them democracy and its inherent ability to create peace. We need not look at the Muslim world "through their eyes." Obama has tried that and failed. The 8 years of Comedy Central has culminated into one of the most hypocritical and embaraassing weeks of the Daily show, with John Stewart now calling our actions weak?!

I hate to say I told you so, but for the past 8 years I have been calling for more efforts to combat terrorism, more pre-emption, more aggressive, identified, and unified OPPOSITION. I'm very glad to see Obama take this approach, which for the record, is nearly identical to the unpopular actions of the Bush Administration.


Bush was not the best domestic president and he got shit for appointing his idiot friends in a political move to heads of important agencies. But he was wrongfully characterized as a "war monger" or "world police" in his efforts to combat terrorism.

But anyway, what I'm saying is this country is split as of now. There are the people who recognize the truth, that these people hate us not for any specific actions, but rather they hate us on a religiously fundamental level (our support of a Jewish state in close proximity) and on a core value level (given the same level of hatred for every president since Harry S. Truman), and there are those who believe the Muslim world has been oppressed by the west and they are forced into terrorism somehow.

They believe it is the actions of a tiny minority twisting islam, when really it is all of Islam as it is in the Middle East. These terrorists have the support of the people. The governments that are pro-American are ostracized as enemies of Islam and are rejected by the people (see Yemen). The people there truly believe, derived from religion, that we are enemies of Islam.

And that is where we must be united. We cannot let our country fall victim to the terrorists' goals. They want us to feel sympathetic. They want us to begin to admire Islam and question our own faith, whatever that maybe for individuals, they want us to question our core values, our country, our nation, our government. I know I sound like big brother but its true.

We need to stand behind our country and let these people know we have faith in our country. That no matter who currently holds office, our system of government, our culture, and our values will not fall victim to a foreign culture trying to impose its backwards will upon us. For if the Middle East was a peaceful and prosperous place, perhaps then I would question our way of living. But given our quality of life, the transcience and trivialness of our troubles compared to theirs, I still have faith in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.





I just ejaculated.
Jan 7 2010 3:00PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
We got hit with 9/11. The rest of the terrorist attacks from 1950-2010 casualty count combined don't even add up to how many firefighters alone died that day.

fucking jackass
Jan 7 2010 3:02PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
Excuse me? Would you mind explaining your version of "population control"?

As for this thread, I really don't have anything completely valid to say other than when it comes to most religions, they can offer good things to people: a community to belong in, aid for many people in need etc. BUT, the cons heavily outweigh the pros in this case. Church and state should be separate. I don't know if it's like this anymore in some states in the US, that you have to pray to God (and country) during elementary school. I hope not.

I'm sorry but you know, there ain't no God, there is only belief. If your belief says that you must either kill me or convert me - my oh my, you are either utterly brainwashed or just an idiot. Possibly both. I know a couple of "liberal" Muslims in Finland and they're great people and definitely no hypocrites. They don't push any shit onto me, unlike some devout Christians I know. "Shun the non-believer!"
Jan 7 2010 3:02PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
I whole heartedly believe this too, but I don't think the difficulty of perseverance ought to dissuade us from trying. Obama echoed this sentiment this week, a sentiment once labeled as "Republican warmongering" and I am glad to hear it.

We can't live in fear of a terrorist attack. We must bring the battle to them, if they so desire a battle. We need not fight large wars, but we must approach this as an ideological battle in the same way we approached communism.


Jan 7 2010 3:04PM
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Mr.Panda
Posts: 17711 - Karma: 564
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/mass_grave1.jpg

I won't embed cause it is kinda creepy.


Jan 7 2010 3:05PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
funny how the world trade centre employed people from all over the world eh?
Jan 7 2010 3:05PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
nope,

Engel v. Vitale, Murray v. Curlett, Lemon v. Kurtzman.

School prayer, at all levels, is illegal.
Jan 7 2010 3:07PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51260 - Karma: 157,386
I love how now jumister just posts his own threads and then turns them into a political shit storm.
Jan 7 2010 3:10PM
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Mike-O
Posts: 14593 - Karma: 1,089
F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5
Jan 7 2010 3:15PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
My god, K-rob you are helplessly dumb. I hope that was a sarcastic comment designed to invoke some sort of idiotic response from me.

But in the case that its not, here is my idiotic response:

are you joking? the 1% of people in the world trade center (with a fucking ER in this country you asshole) disqualifies the United States from suffering the worst terrorist attack in this country? That's what you're saying.

Quit posing your ideas in rhetorical questions to euphemize them. You're saying the United States of America is no authority on combatting terrorism because other countries suffer terrorism as well. That presumption holds true only if we all suffer terrorism more or less equally. Yet I bring up how 9/11 was so astronomically worse than all other terrorist attacks COMBINED and you come back and say there were foreign nationals in the buildings??? Is that a joke???? More AMERICAN firefighters died that day than anyone has ever died from terrorism combined.

Lets not forget the terrorists went to the trouble of spanning the Atlantic ocean when they could just attack bordering European countries. Lets not forget they went through the trouble of establishing fake identities, securing student visas, and obtaining flying classes. Let's not forget the 349 brave souls who lost their lives that day. Let's not forget the 2,973 people we lost on that tragic day.

I hope you don't speak for Canadians because you make them look like sympathy hungry whining, insensitive jackasses. I hope the rest of Canada isn't as dumb, naive, and handicapped as you are.

Shut the fuck up you douchebag. You guys love making America look like the bad guy, but its really you jealous coward motherfuckers I despise who rather than simply identify the enemy, an enemy we all hold in common, you play simple International politics. You think you're holding the moral high ground by blaming the United States and calling us ignorant and naive? You think that makes you an intellectual free from brainwashing? You're only falling victim to simple international politics: members of European balance-of-power simply see this as a time to gain some power where the US is at its weakest.

To you I say, good. Continue to live in your blind world of denial. There's a reason the USA has a 14 trillion GDP during a recession where 2nd only has 4. There's a reason everything worth inventing for the past 100 years was invented here everything from light, to flight, to electricity, to the internet, to google, to heart surgery.


I hate ethnocentrism just as much as the next guy, but my patriotism isn't derived from blind oblivion, my patriotism is derived from an objective comparison of the world, and overwhelmingly the history from its founding to present, of the United States of America presents a much better case than all the rest. So quit your US bashing you fuck.
Jan 7 2010 3:19PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
it only becomes a shit storm when you inject stupidity. Go back and read the first couple pages of  relatively intelligent conversation. Please help your country by killing yourself. Spare us your contaminating idiocy. You will never have anything to offer, only personal attacks. That should be a testament of your intelligence.
Jan 7 2010 3:21PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51260 - Karma: 157,386
"only personal attacks" Really? I never attack people. In everyone of your 3 million line responses, you always seem to slip something in about how the person sucks at life, should kill themselves, how they're a complete idiot, or how much better you are than them.

"Spare us your contaminating idiocy" get a life dude, for real.


You just thrive off these threads don't you? Have fun

Jan 7 2010 3:24PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 170
56 people killed in the london bombings and 191 killed in the spanish train bombings = 247 killed in the first 2 terrorist acts i could think of...


so youre suggesting that in every other terrorist attack ever in the history of everything no more than 46 people were killed.

















fail.
Jan 7 2010 3:24PM
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3ski6guy0
Posts: 9201 - Karma: 132
i guess i feel safe now. no where in those quotes did they say anything about hating on atheists
Jan 7 2010 3:27PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5

Verse: 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans (Ar: Mushrikiin) wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The most vehement of mankind in hostility [are] the Jews and the idolators.[Surah V, v. 82]


Pagans can be extrapolated to mean atheist.

Idolators definitely means atheist.
Jan 7 2010 3:29PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
great arguing semantics again, not the merits or the points. All you guys can do.

Ok when I said that, i knew K-rob is a Canadian. I meant to say the rest of the "free world" or "countries that hold the common enemy" aka anglo-saxon countries (not in the derogatory but in the demographical term) And there have been no other coordinated attacks on Canada, America, England, Australia, and most of the EU on their own soil.
Jan 7 2010 3:34PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51260 - Karma: 157,386
So much of your ideas based on 9/11. Historically speaking what happened then and the 7/7 were all reletively small.

I'm not saying small in terms of impact but seriously, those aren't huge numbers. But come on, your just stuck in this never ending rant. And you keep digging deeper.

"And if they didn't consistently try to kill us. We do try to leave them alone, but they won't leave us alone." Because we barely involve ourselves in anyone's business. We pretty much stay to ourselves and let other countries be. Especially with our military.

Keep thinking every muslim is out to get us. It must feel amazing to be suchhhhhhh an expert on so many levels. Have fun jumister.


Jan 7 2010 3:34PM
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Mr.Panda
Posts: 17711 - Karma: 564
Were you not a Bible thumping dbag like the last 2 nights saying all Muslims must die?

Dude, when you troll as a Bible thumper you have to keep it up and you can't flop back to what you really agree so soon!
Jan 7 2010 3:39PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51260 - Karma: 157,386
True. When jumister gets into these things it's just annoying. He should just make a thread where nobody can reply, since he's going to hate anything they say and tell them about how they should kill themselves for posting.

As for the bible thumping im going back to it on all other threads.
Jan 7 2010 3:52PM
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Mr.Panda
Posts: 17711 - Karma: 564
Well played sir... well played.
Jan 7 2010 3:58PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
you sound like a charlatan when you criticize things you know nothing about.

You're an idiot learn how to read. You simply preach rhetoric. "Because we barely involve ourselves in anyone's business. We pretty much stay to ourselves and let other countries be. Especially with our military." You say that as though we use our military as a world police, yet you can't name our past 6 military engagements. You know nothing. You only know how to talk. so to that, shut the fuck up. If you're going to accuse us of "involving ourselves in others' business" at least point that out with empircal examples. All you're doing now is parroting what you've read in rollingstone. and that makes you an idiot.


9/11 relatively small? see things like that make you an idiot. Relatively small in what sense? It occured in the post-cold war world, so if you want to compare relatives compare it to other events after the cold war. It was an act of terrorism, nothing else, so compare it to other acts of terrorism. Only an idiot would try to compare 9/11 to the invasion of normandy or the dropping of the atomic bomb, 2 totally incomparable situations. That makes you dumb.


Get your head out of your ass. You call me arrogant. I'm not arrogant, i'm confident in my thinking. You're arrogant because you sit on your high horse atop a mountain of blank nothingness. You don't know shit but you pretend to. Before you entrench yourself in opinion, read as much as you can. Spend all your free time reading, thinking, analyzing, maybe then you can hold an opinion with as much regard as you do.
Jan 7 2010 4:07PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
again, you imply that Muslims aren't out to get us, yet you provide nothing to support your claim. You disregard all the evidence thus far presented, and simply wallow in your own world of denial.

the idea is so foreign to you that you simply reject it with a narrow mind, simultaneously claiming that im the closed minded, ignorant one.

The hallmarks of ignorance: making unsubstantiated claims, ostracizing those who don't believe the way you do even though your own beliefs are based on nothing.

You've done both. congrats.

Now get the fuck out of this thread, its you and only you who's turned it into a shit storm. I know you can't read, but just take a quick glance at the previous 2 pages. Based on the structure of the words, it doesn't appear to be a shit storm does it? Get your illiterate empty dumbass brain out of here.
Jan 7 2010 4:10PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 170
not trying to get involved in this argument, i just read that post and felt like pointing out how stupid that statement was.
Jan 7 2010 4:14PM
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