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Communism vs. Capitalism

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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
It seems like there have been a bunch of threads that have turned into giant communism vs. capitalism shit storms.

Here's a thread to contain that and let other threads, ex: tattoo thread go on with the original topic.


Delphi, Gnartron, and ButtonGwinnett can start us off.

Let's refrain from blatant hate and use actual arguments. This worked really well in my history class, so I hope this can actually be an intelligent discussion.
Dec 16 2009 10:23PM
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Governator
Posts: 116 - Karma: 18
It was Jonah Salk, I'm pretty sure, and he said something to the effect of (on patenting the polio vaccine):

"Would you patent the sun?"

Also, I think the answer to this question generally lies in the middle. Incentive is good, it makes us work for the things we want to have.

But the last century of American capitalism (really the last 30 years) has created a country where the top 1% control something like 90-plus % of the wealth. This isn't okay. The trickle-down economic dogma installed by the Reagan administration that continues today may have continued to grow our economy, but it painfully marginalizes the underclass.

What we have now is a permanent, mostly African-American underclass that is undereducated and lacks any opportunity for advancement. You can't tell me with a straight face that you have the exact same chance of economic success after going through a suburban school on Long Island, or the Main Line, or Chicago's North Shore that you have if you go through inner-city schools.

What's been lost is a sense of civic duty. People, as has been said, are greedy. They want tax breaks. More money for them, more money for their company, etc. Tax breaks suck money from the government. Social programs die or are never implemented. And the gap between the rich and the poor widens every day because of it.

Clearly, capitalism has been a success of some sort in America. It created the most productive, well-fed and richest country the world has ever known. But we need to find that sense of civic duty that existed during the New Deal and its aftermath, and we need to figure out a way to give everyone a fair shake in this world. The benefits of economic success in America are vast and glorious. Skiing is one of them. It's a shame there are people who live and die without ever experiencing those benefits, only because they never had a chance to go after them.
Dec 16 2009 11:09PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
LOL WAT

"There will be no government to keep all that money"
"The money would get put back into the community"

Community = government
Dec 16 2009 11:09PM
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Mac.
Posts: 953 - Karma: 24
It is true that a kid going to a upper class suburban high school is going to get a better education (better chance to succeed) than a kid going to a run down, overcrowded inner city high school.

BUT that does not make succcess unachieveable for the inner city kid, it just means that that kid has to work harder to achieve that same level of success.
That is the beauty of capitalism is that in most cases (of course not all) success is attainable if you just work hard.
Dec 16 2009 11:10PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
lol
Dec 16 2009 11:11PM
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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
I meant to say like no government like the US has, or the Soviet Union had. As in an incredibly powerful minority controlling the majority. (I'm overgeneralizing here, but you get my point)
Dec 16 2009 11:12PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
The irony is that the inner city is more taxed, more socialist if you will.
Dec 16 2009 11:12PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
So you mean a conservative, capitalist, free market society?
Dec 16 2009 11:14PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
let me pose this.

under absolute pure capitalism, who gains the power? the ones that work and achieve it.

under communism, who gains the power? the person with the biggest gang / biggest stick?


not to mention motivating people with altruism is a joke. you wont motivate me to do jack shit if the gain goes equally to my neighbor. you will motivate me at the end of a gun, but thats it.


capitalism = epic win.

just think for a moment when you go to the grocery store and buy a loaf of bread. now think about all the expertise, time, and materials that went into making that loaf of bread. who decreed that it be made? who forced the farmers to grow the wheat? who forced the trucker to drive it to the grocery store? who forced the grocery store to open, let alone carry bread? no one. how might this have all happened? everyone gained something from the exchange of you going into 711 and buying a loaf of bread. if there was not mutual gain. then would the exchange have even occurred in the first place?


this thread is going to be fun! i have no finals until friday, so it goes without saying my NS time will probably increase ;)
Dec 16 2009 11:14PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
the problem here being that once they gain the power, they retain it, thus overshadowing the little guy trying to rise up
Dec 16 2009 11:16PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
Not necessarily. In economics, one of the biggest factors is technology. Look at bill gates, steve jobs, etc. A bunch of drop outs that made a technological advancement that set them at the top of the food chain
Dec 16 2009 11:18PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
if the powerful cannot be toppled, then why has GM failed? why have practically all airlines failed?  how is it that print newspapers are dropping by the wayside?

why did the horse and buggy companies go, well, "the way of the cart a donkey"? haha
Dec 16 2009 11:19PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
failure of a company has nothing to do with someone else toppling them, in the case of GM, and honestly the airlines, a lot of it is poor business practices

the problem with that is, if GM had been allowed to fail, who would have suffered. not the bigwigs, they had all already rolled out of there with multimillion dollar bonuses. meanwhile the factory workers are SOL with no job and nothing to show for it.
Dec 16 2009 11:23PM
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Mac.
Posts: 953 - Karma: 24
Not at all.
If you work hard in communism you will have no more success than the guy next to you that has been lazy his whole life., and done nothing.
Dec 16 2009 11:24PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
Irony again, in the fact that the factory workers were union workers, communism's gay brother
Dec 16 2009 11:25PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
do capitalism with constrictions on consumption please
Dec 16 2009 11:26PM
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YakAttack
Posts: 8 - Karma: 10
if you all want to know anything about the truth then i have two suggestions for you: watch the kudlow report on cnbc every night at 7 pm est OR read the 2009 index of economic freedom. that is all
Dec 16 2009 11:26PM
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NW_Rider
Posts: 2580 - Karma: 314
I am by far a much greater supporter of capitalism, but Marx does make some good points, and the society that Thomas More sets up in Utopia really had some good ideas. It at least provides some guidance in making communism actually function, although the demeanor in which it is written does lend some idea to More being sarcastic in his depiction of Utopia, many have embraced his ideas. I personally fall under the ideals of Locke though, that being that my body is my own property, and that any work (labor) I mix with anything creates property ie. picking an apple from a tree = my apple. Life, Liberty and Property.
Dec 16 2009 11:29PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
ok ben.... how is it that Google was able to rise up with the likes of Yahoo, Hotmail, etc supposedly looming over controlling the interwebz search engine, browser, email, category.

oligopolies can, and do fail. you create a better product, have the prowess to go out and market, etc that product. the consumer will deiced for themselves which product the like more.

and as stated in another thread. the airline unions can go fuckthemselvs :) (dare i say overbearing, controlling, excessive unions in general) even the union for the full time employees where i work has effected me. I was told i could no longer work there this year because the union did not approve of little old me cleaning shitters making $10 an hour. they want my job to go to someone making $12 an hour paying union dues. ( i had worked to many hours)
Dec 16 2009 11:33PM
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Spinoza
Posts: 12763 - Karma: 3,844
to start my post i want to say that i am not a history nor poli sci student so i dont wanna try to say anything along those lines b/c ill just come off as a retarded pretentious asshole.   but from the little knowledge i have on the basic idea of communism, and the knowledge i have from living in a capitalist society that is NORTH AMERICA i think i have an idea:
Doesnt it boil down to the true nature of man?   [lol at the epic statement..]
i mean,   if people are inherently good then communism seems like the obvious choice because it is fair.. communism would succeed from the generosity of EVERYONE.
but its obvious now that greed is winning,   ie. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. and even me,  coming from an upper-middle class family i cannot honestly say that i would happily give away my comfortable life.
so maybe in a perfect world communism would be good.   i mean, i bet robots would choose communism
..
if im off base in anything let me know.  im not trying to be right im trying to uncover whatsup.
Dec 16 2009 11:38PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
is capitalism failing due to more capitalism happening? or is capitalism failing due to its increasing socialistic tendencies?
Dec 16 2009 11:38PM
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Gorilla.Steeze
Posts: 2215 - Karma: 43
Note: before making generalizations about the U.S. economy, know that it is not 100% capitalism and stop making it seem as if our problems from the recession stem from these so-called flaws in capitalism.

Just came across this VERY disturbing article for those laissez-faire supporters:

Dec 16 2009 11:41PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
let me ask this. is it immoral for a person to work for his own benefit?

is being charitable with other peoples money moral?

i contest there is a certain virtue in greed, the betterment of ones self, NOT at the expense of others, but the betterment of ones self.
Dec 16 2009 11:41PM
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Utard
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 296
I don't pretend to know the answer to this but I have a question: What happens when the earth runs out of certain natural resources that are necessary to sustain civilization as we know it? What system solves?
Dec 16 2009 11:51PM
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Gorilla.Steeze
Posts: 2215 - Karma: 43
government control is what got us into the recession. it is FACT that the banks knew that if they went under from mal-investment, that they would be bailed out by Bernake and the Feds. it was this guarantee that encouraged bad business practices in the first place by stretching their resources to make as much money as possible without ever actually possessing a fraction of what they claim to possess.

i don't even want to get into how bad price and interest rate regulation is for the economy. economics 101 tells us that we can't have interests rates hovering around 0% for over a year. this only encourages consumers to continue to borrow money that they don't have. eventually interest rates have to skyrocket to check inflation and then everyone is fucked.
Dec 16 2009 11:53PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
thought of something. as we set here on "teh interwebz" using a computer discussing the merits of capitalism and communism. might want to take the time and send capitalism a thankyou letter.


thanks capitalism, i love my computer, the internet, the expression of ideas it brings. thanks capitalism. you rock :)
Dec 16 2009 11:54PM
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gnarrr
Posts: 823 - Karma: 12
Some guy named carl invented communism for russia because he thought it was good for them, it shoulda worked perfectly in russia too because he didn't like industrialisation. Anyways it spread to china like a bad case of herpes after and our stuff is made there now so captialism wins. /thread
Dec 16 2009 11:56PM
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ski_powpow
Posts: 1247 - Karma: 1,200
Interesting, but in my opinion capitalism is failing because of "big buisnesses". After the bailouts and an attempt to utilizeing  Reaganomics or the trickle down theory (capital granted to dominate corporations in hopes of wealth trickling down to smaller buisness and stablilizing the econonmy.)  money remained in the hands of these large corporations and was divied out in bonusses. This left no room for smaller buisnesses to escape the strangle hold of the economic depression and wealth became concentrated in elite segments of the corporate world.

On another note, communism and government intevervention are very differnet. Socialist ideologies in a government dosen't make it a communist system. Canada perserves liberal ideals while ensuring a level of government intervention is used to maintain stability in the economy. In my mind a mix between the two is ideal, one or the other leads to disagreement in one way or another.
Dec 16 2009 11:58PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
Um...... We used keynesian economics
Dec 16 2009 11:59PM
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Spinoza
Posts: 12763 - Karma: 3,844
1}  i would say its  not immoral to work for your own benefit,  but once you do obtain wealth, no matter how miniscule it is,   doesnt it then become immoral to keep the money?? why should you have money while other people suffer?   even if you argue that they should 'get a job like i did' that doesnt apply to everyone and many people cannot work  because of disabilities or are just born in an area where thats even an option

2} aka robin hood?  well its hard to say, cause if i remember correctly robin hood stole from nobles and rich slobs who were cruel to the people,   they represent the bigwig bank managers today ide say. so thats good to think about.    too bad its not so easy to just shoot an arrow through a bank to feed the homeless..  thats where the class struggle and hegemony enters.

3} perhaps the problem exists in the way capitalism is structured,  aka class system. most rich people's greed takes them over and they will not trade their wealth for a life of real daily work.
if only we could go back to the days living on farms where people worked hard all day to put food on the table and it was simple.    
...but then xboxs wouldnt exist and i wouldnt be able to play cod which would SUCK!
Dec 17 2009 12:00AM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
i would rather live in a capitalist society
Dec 17 2009 12:05AM
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_Alex_
Posts: 160 - Karma: 31
He was obviously trolling...
Dec 17 2009 12:06AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
in capitalism, betterment of oneself comes with the expense of others, always. We call this betterment of oneself profit.


also there is no virtue in greed, greed is the good (bettering one's self) and the bad (expense of others) together, and you can't have one without the other at least not in the capitalist way.

you might want to call your behavior self preservation (SP), but if you do this you're forced to accept social justice policies i know you, personally, don't want to support. Calling on SP, however will mean that you cannot be greedy at all. It calls on you to be fair, but this does not necessarily mean that you need to give up all profits; you just need to play a role in providing a society that promotes the necessary social justice that provides people with the basic tools necessary to achieve self sustainability.
Dec 17 2009 12:11AM
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ski_powpow
Posts: 1247 - Karma: 1,200
Im pretty sure Reaganomics explains the trickle down theory, which is exactly what happened with the bailouts but it really didn't "trickle down" any of the wealth.  Keynesian demand-side economics suggests a "trickle up theory", exactly what didn't happen.
Dec 17 2009 12:16AM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
hahaha is that what they tell you?
Dec 17 2009 12:19AM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
Yes reaganomics explains the trickle down, but the operations that the government were involved in were intended to be Keynesian
Dec 17 2009 12:19AM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
communism is for lazy people.
Dec 17 2009 12:20AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
when i buy that loaf of bread to feed myself and my familiy, i call that bettering my situation on this earth. did i get that loaf of bread "at the expense" of the store owner? if i did, why did he let me have it? or did we both experience "a betterment" of ourselfs by the action of trading money for bread?

did i gain my bread at the expense of the shot owner? or did the shop owner gain my money at my expense? or maybe we both gained something we valued more? i valued the bread to feed my family, the shop owner valued my money to do whatever the hell he wants with it.

capitalism / free markets, are not always this zero sum game.
Dec 17 2009 12:26AM
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ski_powpow
Posts: 1247 - Karma: 1,200
How were they intended to be Keynesian if bailouts were granted to corporate giants to begin with?
I
Dec 17 2009 12:30AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
i would say the very act of saving a company in peril to begin with makes a strong Keynesian case... not to mention the "stimulus" package americans got.
Dec 17 2009 12:34AM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
I am talking about the first stream of bailouts in 2001 and on.
Dec 17 2009 12:36AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
i'm not saying all trade is bad, but if you had to pay $20 for the loaf of bread, you would think it's a different story right? it depends on the situation and the amount individuals decide to take as profit.

i was talking to some folks who worked for a natural gas company, first it was originally an American owned group, now owned by a Spanish corp. They were saying something along the lines of people were getting let go because the company didn't have the money to keep them on, yet the board members or CEO was taking in $78 million in salary... this sort of capitalistic gain for the head of the company is also an example of making personal benefit at someone else's expense.
Dec 17 2009 7:49AM
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NataliePortman
Posts: 1382 - Karma: 84
someone didnt do well in their economics class
Dec 17 2009 8:41AM
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Campeador
Posts: 7516 - Karma: -1,227
Which makes it different from everything you post how?

Speaking of failures, you should check your idol, the Argentine bum only the most idiotic of leftists love.
Dec 17 2009 8:52AM
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notomatoplz
Posts: 1377 - Karma: 29

Capitalism works well and rewards those generations who are around during its formation. unfortunately there are many people who are simply born into poverty after the fact, creating a lack of resources and thus making the idea of rising to wealth or even economic stability harder to achieve.

Communism on the other hand is a cool ideal, but it is still just that to me: an ideal. It doesn't seem to have been achieved in its purest form to date and i doubt it ever will in the future. (especially due to fear of enduring the same fate as the failed USSR).

So maybe we should just all admit that, either way, there are alot of flaws in any of our economic models.

Dec 17 2009 10:05AM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
Im going to have to disagree by using a stereotype. Look at all the musicians, celebrities, athletes, etc, that came from poverty
Dec 17 2009 10:31AM
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notomatoplz
Posts: 1377 - Karma: 29
I admit there are alot of exceptions and in fact, i am undecided as to which ideology i really like. The point that i was trying to make is that both capitalism and communism have their flaws and in the case of capitalism i believe it is that we are not given the fair start that is advertised (no pun intended) by it's supporters. People are born into the economic situation that their relatives created for them whether it be good or bad, and in the bad situations, it is tough to break the cycle.
Dec 17 2009 10:55AM
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DGiurk
Posts: 786 - Karma: 194
this
Dec 17 2009 11:29AM
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M+M
Posts: 7935 - Karma: 25
worked great for the USSR...
Dec 17 2009 11:43AM
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DGiurk
Posts: 786 - Karma: 194
Everything is just an idea that doesn't work. In the US democracy HASN'T been acheived. If it was it would take way to fucking long to do ANYTHING, the peoples votes would actually account for EVERYTHING and the peopling in D.C could actually vote for their own fucking governing. All in all i'm not trying to hate but every form of government is a concept and all forms of government contain corruption that FUCKS everyone over. And that my friends is how life works, IMHO
Dec 17 2009 11:44AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
which was it? the CEO or the board taking away 78m?... 78m to pay your entire board of a multinational natural gas company does not sound excessive to me. but thats just me. the market prices your salary too. the market has deiced i am worth 10$ an hour doing what i do. conversely, the market has decide the value derived from the work my grandpa does is worth over 200K. could my grandpa do my work? (probably not, because he is over 60;) the answer however is yes. almost anyone with half a non retarded brain could do my work. thats why i only make $10 an hour. would i know the first thing about running a telephone consulting corporation? i wouldnt know where to start. the value derived from my work is not worth 200k.

would you know where to start running a natural gas company?

im not going to play this vilify the rich game. have you ever talked to someone in a similar position as those on the board of a company, or a CEO? you might be surprised by what you hear from them...

if bread hits 20$ a loaf, im going and planting a wheat field ;) i cannot imagine the price per bushel of wheat... Bread will not hit $20 a loaf unless. something of cataclysmic proportions hits.. the reason, say wonder bread cost $20. (and they are making an exorbinate  profit) country hearth can go and sell their bread for $4 a loaf, make a profit, and attract ALL of wonderbreads former customers that are not willing to pay $20 a loaf. the store does not price their loaf of bread, and to an extent even the bread companies do not. the market does. the individuals at the store or bread company cannot just decide to soak the customer. well actually than can, but their operation will not be around much longer. everytime i buy a product i make the statement that i value that product more than the money it took to purchase it. whether that be 90$ lift tickets, $3 loafs of bread, cell phone service, anything. i was not coerced into purchasing that product.


underwear gnomes are not nearly as prevalent as some might think they are.... (southpark reference, IDK if you watch southpark haha)
Dec 17 2009 12:59PM
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