Waterproof/Breathability discussion

try googling waterproofing. backcountry.com will pop up and it will say something about waterproofing. pretty damn good explanation if you ask me. It pretty buch makes it seem that 5 k will keep you dry but read the whole thing to get the idea. i dont know about breathability so hope it helps

heres the link

http://www.backcountry.com/store/newsletter/a342/Whats-the-deal-with-these-waterproof-ratings.html

Waterproof is pretty important... i mean the higher, the more water it can take before you get wet. but of course, breathability wont be that great, even if it says its good.

but i mean, this stuff is proven. gore tex makes highly waterproof stuff. its been tested a lot, and it work really well.... and its definitely more than a couple hundred k....

to me, the biggest thing about lower rated jackets is that the waterproofing is from a spray on coasting like dwr or "durable water protection" which is just a hydrophobic coating, that when combined with the nylon or poly based fabric forms a decent waterproofing shield. from there, you run into the problem with how long the coating holds up, and washes out. also, the seams and zippers normally wont be sealed and you'll get water through there.

on a higher waterproof'ed jacket you'll normally see a waterproof membrane. the real difference is it'll stay waterproof for a muchhhh longer time, and you wont see the jacket build up with as much water that will eventually soak through.

lower waterpoofing is great on printed jackets or styles that won't last long, where you want to keep price down since its something you'll probably replace in a year or two.

All I know is when its snowing and I'm wearing my 15k jacket and 5k pants, the pants get wet a lot quicker. I know a guy who's parents own an outdoor store in Manchester, Vermont called something like The Mountain Goat I think. He was telling me something about waterproofing and breathability ratings being bullshit if they are the same because you simply cannot have a material that is both highly breathable and highly waterproof at the same time.

another quote from david lesh on the First Drop Outerwear Thread -

Its really too bad that there is such a large misconception about millimeters of water-proofing and breathability.

bump

So the next question should be is it full sealed?

I got into an arguement about this not too long ago.

It's true that it is mostly a scam in the sense of cold weather outerwear. To put it simply, the membrane is to far away from your skin to be breathable since the heat being emmitted generally turns to sweat before it gets to the membrane. This is why you have vents. However, outwear that uses the type of membrane that allows vapor to go through with out needing to be wet works better. Look up how gortex works and it will make sense

What is really important is the dwr treatment and how you take care of it. The membrane does work to keep your outerwear waterproof, but if the dwr is not being effective, you will notice the outer fabric wetting out causing it to become heavier and the breathability that is there to become less effective.

There are standards as to how many inches of water in a 24 hour period an article can keep out. I believe it is 25 inches of water combined with pressure. So if it is snowing, it is unlikely that you will encouter enough water and pressure for a 5,000 mm jacket to not be effective. If it is spring slush and you are rolling around in it non stop and falling and jumping into it, the pressure of falling and your weight could make 5,000 (taken care of properly) to not be enough and you may need to go into the 8,000+ category.

The only situation in which you would truely need something 20,000 is if you A) dont take care of your gear and are relying on only the membrane, or B) you are backpacking through the tretcherous conditions and sleeping in puddles for a few days straight.


I'm writing my business ethics paper on this sham.  And there is plenty of information to back up everything I just said.

So basically since I don't take care of my gear buying 20k was a good idea, cool.

I call shinanigans
just because they pressure some water through it doesn't mean a thing. you think, today, that we dont account for variables?

I have had a lot experience with various types of membranes, we have tested many. I generally agree that the DWR is the most essential piece of protection you have between you and the weather.

The most common misconception we hear is that a "water logged" jacket must have a low waterproof rating; this is not true! All that it means is that the DWR is failing and you should either wash your garment with Tech Wash or spray it down with your favorite tech spray. Many times if your outerwear does get water logged it feels like you are getting wet because; A) the fabric is closer to your skin so B) (as someone said earlier) the heat leaving your body still has water vapor in it when it hits the coating and C) the breathability of the membrane is hindered by the lack of breathability in the water soaked outer material resulting in D) the moisture from your body building up on the inside of the jacket. Very rarely (unless you are a PNW skier) will water get through the laminate.

We choose 10K/10K for our laminate because it is the best of both worlds. Unfortunately this knowledge is not commonly known and many consumers buy outerwear based on these technical specs. It is impossible to quantify quality and I think that is an extremely important and overlooked fact.

Peace!
Sam

Another thing I forgot to mention:

Because of these reasons, it is even more important to buy outerwear with fully taped seams(LDC for example haha)! The seams are the most vulnerable part of any piece of outerwear.