PROTECT OUR CULTURE!

this really upsets me, that our "culture" of skiing has evolved into what kind of shit you buy at your local ski shop. our culture should have NOTHING to do with companies and shops, it should be where your shredding and how hard your shredding. if you need some steezy shit to show off what you can buy at a store.. go for it. ill go out on the hill wearing Carhartt's and some badass shades and make just as much of a statement.

so, fuck the industrialized 'culture' . and fuck companies, they're essentially ruining skiing. they ARE however producing some steezy as hell shit, which i guess helps you ride..?

Bahahahaha

i've posted in here too much already but LOL @ the big companies trying to defend themselves. You guys are not part of a freeski company, you are part of a big business that has a freeski section. As much as money you put into freeskiing is well appreciated right now the fact is your owners could live without this fragment of the sports industry. Should it become not as profitable and there is not the same demand for freestyle products as there is now they will feel like it is no big deal to make a business decision that results in them leaving our small industry to focus on something more profitable. This is how big business works, I don't like it and i'm sure its not something you like to admit to being a part of.

how about suporting companies that make a good product, surface, armarda, line, orage, soloman boots(the skis suck), dabello, moment, on3p. all companies that make great products.  I susport small companies but the shops are way more important

The Birth of SCOTT and the Revolution of Ski Poles

The sport of skiing was revolutionized with a technical innovation from Ed Scott, a talented engineer and ski racer living in Sun Valley, Idaho. Ed Scott's invention of the first tapered aluminum ski pole immediately replaced the sport's existing use of bamboo and steel. That revolutionary invention launched a new brand, SCOTT, and fundamentally positioned SCOTT as a technical product leader in the skiing market. Ed Scott's initial vision of technical innovation would serve as the cornerstone company philosophy as the brand matured and expanded to new markets

We totally did not start as a ski company...

That doesn't really mean much, they are their own separate company for the most part I think,  I doubt if Bonfire does well they just give money back to their parent company, WHO THEN puts it back into the ski industry.  Basilly, I doubt that if Bonfire does well they give Solly money that is used for R&D on skis, ski comps, or other such things.  I think Salomon is too big, and not a good value anymore, although I haven't ridden any of their new or recent skis other than foils which I hated, but I don't think those were a great representation of Solly anyway.
It seems like once a company gets so big it must find new markets to sustain it's growth, this means advertising.

To sum it up
1.  Company is too big to sustain growth SOLEY marketing to the core freeski/freestyle ski community (free-riders, big mtn, NS types and such)
2.  They have to increase advertising to reach new markets, this means more spent on advertising than products.  Don't tell me it also puts more into R&D.  ON3P and Moment both make skis superior to Salomon (imo) and they are pretty new companies with nowhere near the budget of Solly.  Quality skis are much more than: Huge advertising budget ---> Huge sales ---> Huge R&D.
3.  Once they start targeting people not listed above (with some exceptions and/or additions) the quality of their product falls.
4.  Not that most people care but I don't like having gear that every other gaper can just go down to the shop and buy,  and once those types of people are targeted the stop buying gear from said company.  For example, if Saga was sold at Dicks (not that it ever will be) it would lose most of it's novelty and originality.

I've seen it happen to Oakley, and Northface especially (in terms of when they tried to increase sales and reach more people their quality went down the drain), and other companies as well, I can't think of them off the top of my head and I'm in class right now.

I've been hard on Salomon, I actually like them overall as a company (including their non-ski stuff), and they've proved themselves in the industry for sure.  Just doesn't suit my tastes personally.

Beat me to it, Scott is so legit, even their coats (on paper) are so fucking ill.  Plus their stuff looks dope.

Sorry, about that, i must have had my hater goggles on when i forgot to check. =(

how is Scott not core? besides creating poles, they were one of hte first companies to offer such a variety of goggles, including style AND function. so.. all these little companies today are essentially following in the footsteps of pioneers such as Scott.

Were those hater goggs the Anon ones you have on in your 08 setup photo in your profile complete with Ronin and Holden gear? Thats pretty core freeski style right there..

This idea of core is silly. It's in the eye of the beholder. Hammer and Radio Ron are more core than all of you because they stuck to their roots and kept skiing bumps after everyone moved to twin tips. SEE! HA! None of you are "core" now. Do it up one time...

Hey dude, like the other guys have said we all do what we can, In case you didn't notice I refuse to wear the biggest clothes available and so I wear holden, as for the gogs and the jacket they were merely a matter of what i could afford, buy in a local shop and what fitted well. Now I said I was sorry for calling your company out unfairly and even if I did that is no reason for a personal attack like that especially after i admitted i was wrong.

You cant hate on him for wearing Holden, not until a "core" skiing brand decides to stop being ghetto as fuck and make clothes similar to Holden. Dont get me wrong, I like saga and jibberish and all that, but no skiing brand makes smaller ski outerwear, so its not like he had another option with out changing style.

Most of my shit is Analog or Sessions, and I even have a pair of Holdens. I typically buy what is cheap, so even if it is snowboarding shit, its not like they are making any money off me.

Rogges post says it all man, The Core thing is pretty funny but if your going to be this serious in talking about freeski culture and supporting it, you should to, not trying to blatently disrespect you, all of us are just trying to slide around and have fun with sticks on our feet, BUT when your gonna call out companies and people for not showing support, you better be doing your part..

"If we want to protect the future of our culture it is companies owned and ran by people passionate about this cause we need to support."

Don't take it soo personal

I could not be more stoked on the discussion and debates.  Most of them have some Validity.

The Fact is most ski and snowboard companies are very fragile, and more and more local skis shops are going out of business.  Here are a list of the reasons why.

The purpose of my thread was to discuss the rapid loss of local shops.  Why rollerblading has fallen apart is because it never indentified itself as a culture.  If rollerblading would have had a large collecton of specialty shops like skatboarding does, they could have protected themselves better.   I dont want to see our NS culture learn the same lesson.

We need a large collection of healthy local shops.  They are what protect and strenghten our culture.

My intention was not to make my thread about any particular brand, but because the brands are the ones who are guilty for causing most of the problem, is suppose its unaviodable.

Here is a list of the top 5 causes for the current collapes of the local shop base. 

1. Direct sales on the internet are chocking out retail shops.
2  Big Chain Sporting Good Stores like Sports Authority and Dicks are creating a wallmart situation.
3. Brands who do direct sales
4. Brands who support the Big Chain Sporting Good Stores Wallmart strategy.
*5. We as a customer base do not do a good enough job of supporting brands who support local shops and punish brands who hurt local shops with the 4 reasons listed above.

With a little effort we as a customer base and culture have the power.  If we work together, we have the power to change the negative policies brands impliment that are killing local shops.   I know that we need to do all we can these days to save money, but just a little effort will make the difference.  Maybe, buy your skis and bindings online, but go to you local shop for your boots. 

We need to make an effort to fix the problem, and we can do it if we make our buying decisions a bit more carefully from now on.

Whithout  a large collection of local specialty ski and snowboard shops, we will weaken our market and are open to the same fate as rollerblading.

None of us want to see that happen.

Loving the passion and the debate regarding this issue. It shows the we have the passion necessary to fix the problem.

So I should go out and buy Paul Mitchel shampoo, because it will support some athlete I've never met in my life.

Think about it:

If I buy Paul Mitchel the money goes back to them, I receive no benefits of my purchase other than the original shampoo

If I buy some huge brand's skis my money goes to the skis I purchase, a bunch of other shit, and a bunch of advertising.

If I buy Moments money goes to the skis I bought, and not too much goes to advertising, compared to a company like Rossi.  Rossi might spend more for comps and put money into the industry, but not much of that really effects me.  I'm not going to pay for Rossi to advertise to another demographic (that I DO not identify with at all) while buying a pair of their skis.

So I guess the companies I think are core, are:
Small  (market to niches, ie. NS, big mtn. riders, Backcountry riders)
By skiers for skiers
Benefit me more than other companies would. 
They don't need much advertising because they are marketing to a niche market that doesn't need to be advertised too.
Don't make a shit ton of other products (Especially if the products aren't something I'd use)
Don't make products that are just extremely different than ski stuff

I feel like if a company is cool enough to market to a niche like the ones listed above, they will produce better gear than a company who makes everything from shoes to snowshoes to skis and bindings at every store they possible can.  It's a choice a company has to make, marketing to these niches is far less profitable than say marketing like Solly (tons of diff products), if a company knowingly sacrifices profits to market to a niche, it is obvious they will be more in tune with that niche.  And I can respect that very much.  Saga is a prime example.

Rogge,

By todays standards you are absolutely correct.

"CORE"  used to be a statement of sincerity not size.  If a companies investment in our culture is real and sincere.  They are "CORE".

By "sincere" I mean that they have a long-term investment in our culture.  Not just feeding off it and leaving the moment their revenue drops.

"CORE"  is a  non existent term now.

That is the point of my thread. 

We can make "CORE" a legitimate statement again if we try.

Burlington's local shop, The Ski Rack, sells small, medium, and large brands. They know their market and their buyers purchase what the consumer want. They also offer incredible customer service (which is why the best skiers in the world go to Burlington to get their boots fitted).

Brad, to better understand you opinion, it seems like you are talking more about the battle between the local shop vs big box like dicks.

I agree with you on almost all of your points.

I just disagree about our need for local shops. 

Skiing and Snowboarding are a culture and a lifestyle that is based on the common purpose of progressing.  Due to this deep and collective passion, it is vital that we have local specialty shops to fuel this progressive spirit. 

It important for a kid to walk out of a local shop after buying his gear and feel a sense of pride and belonging to something special.  The internet and  large Sporting Good chain stores dont generate this emotion.

I will never forget the first time I walked out of my first local surf shop with my board and gear.  I felt like I had just been baptized and reborn. If I had bought my board and gear off the internet or from a large sporting goods chain store,  I would not have the same pride in being a surfer.

Generating this emotion to skiers and snowboarder is so important.  It is this strong sense of belonging and pride that makes our culture as strong as it is.

If we remove local shops from our culture, in time it will heavily dilute the passion that exists today.

We need this passion and pride for long term strength and stability as a culture.

WME was 'core' once.

WME, Monster Energy and Scott all play the same games. Talking 'core' and history doesn't count for much.

The way to support skiing is to spend a shit ton of money on it, the end. Most of us are just trying to milk the NY tourist dollars that fuel the industry... far more than our niche. Freeskiing is a marketing tool... like the X-Games and Dew Tour... advertising venues. Supporting 'local' business is always a good idea though. I agree that supporting small and local business helps keep individuality in the culture alive though.

Skiing is a self-destructive industry anyway. The culture is fighting its primary support ( though the source of that support is changing slightly). The sport itself relies on travel, resource intensive resorts, cats... basically a whole bunch of stuff that will negatively impact future snowfall. The sport as we know it doesn't stand much of a chance of lasting more than another 50 years to begin with. The money, resources and more importantly environmental conditions just aren't going to support it anymore. It's another reason to buy small, but if you're trying to keep freeskiing as it is... well, just shell out to whoever's going big.

This may be a slight stray from the original post but I think the conversation has broadened/

The industry is growing. I think the feeling of being core is just a feeling of being special, unique, doing something no one else is doing, not being associated with any brands or company’s, its “core” because its all based around you, you friends and whatever you make it. Skiing is growing and is just moving away from that. You can still do anything you want and have just as much fun but you are one of 100 twin tippers on the hill instead of one of 10. With that, it does seem more “commercialized” and maybe less “special” BUT now there are 100 features on the hill instead of 10. More companies to buy sick gear from. More companies sponsoring kids so they can set the goal of trying to get better and go pro. More people care about the edit you made and posted online, you can go to college and find a whole group of kids that wanna drive a few hours on the weekends and go shred powder with you. More MOVIES. More publications. More and better ski trips! More free stuff. More opportunity to ski! The list really goes on.

There are obviously many “genres” of industry. I classify skiing as the “recreation” genre. For the vast majority, it is a hobby and is just for fun. That vast majority is what the industry is based around, it’s who the industry “serves.” I don’t know if I’m right but I think that the more people doing what we are doing the better. It probably wont feel as “core” but the benefits out weigh the detriments.

your brother

Why? Do you know who they sponsor?
I'm not talking just riders but films, the bonus shirt that came with refresh? Tell me that wasn't supporting the industry and a really cool perk to buying the film.

Cheers!

More people = bad in my eyes.  I know, it doesn't seem progressive, and it's not really.
I have no problem paying current prices for lift tickets/passes.  I'd even pay more if there were less people, especially gapers on pow days.  I don't need some big name brand pouring in money to ski an epic pow day.  They are the same, have been for years.  So I'm always supporting the small underground brands, plus they make way more unique stuff, and I just strongly dislike the mainstream.

Now if I put on my business shoes my perspective is very altered, so I understand why the big companies do what they do, if I was in their position I'd probably do the same thing.

To the UA guy: How is UA's ski department sectioned off or connected from/to the rest of the company, what's the structure like?  Is it like UA ----> each individual sport         or are sports grouped together?  I so what is the ski category linked with, is it part of a broader "snow" category or how does this all work?
Just PM me if you get a chance,  Some of my assumptions may be just off base and I'm curious.

Wait you got an UA shirt with Refresh????
Was it one of the moisture wicking ones?  Or just a tee?
I've never heard anything about this.

here's a link to Berman's post on level1productions.com http://www.level1productions.com/news.php?id=243&y=2009&m=10

Pretty bad ass, I have to admit.

Small independent film crews VS. Warren Miller  =  Local shops VS. Sports Authority

The fact is the Warren Miller companies of our industry (Dicks, Sports Authority) are choking out our Clown Schools, 4bi9s, and Traveling Circuses (independent local shops). Both can be argued as bigger contributers to our culture.

The smaller brands and local shops offer us the grass roots passion much like the smaller film crews
The bigger chains stores and brands offer us the big money much like the Warren Miller

So the question is which do you think is more important to our culture.

A large collection of small passionate brands local shops and film crews   or   A few big brands, chain stores and film companies that throw a bunch of money around.

One is killing the other, so we have to choose one.

I choose the grass roots passion and sincerity of the local shops.

I can see how depending on your opinion of where you want freeskiing in the future makes a big difference on what brands you support. Since you see more people skiing as bad, I completely understand why you don't like mainstream companies entering skiing. If all you want to do is ski for fun on the weekends after your 9-5 during the week then that is great and more people coming in to skiing does suck as the lift lines on the weekends are already too long. I think more people in freeskiing to be a good thing to grow the sport and help more and more kids do what the love for a living. It's way more fun than a 9-5 in a cubicle.

It's a Heat Gear T, and it is really sick.

If you can't find a ski clothing company that isn't core then you need to use the searchbar my friend, but i wouldn't hate on someone for buying Holden when that was their style and a good price for them. Analog is sadly in a conglomerate of gayness but i really like their stuff no matter how core they are, sessions, sponsors T-Rains and the late and great Shane McConkey. nuff said.

To the Anon's comment above, haha. I totally agree, i would not support Anon if they were the last goggle company on earth, they have some sick products but i still wouldn't. Maybe if they said sorry at least i would consider it. They officially pulled a dick move on skiing and i hold it against them. Lameeeeee

T- Rains(Tanner Rainville for anyone who doesn't know) is actually sponsored by Under Armour. He has been on the program since Fall 2008. We are working on updating our website so it has a complete profile on all of our athletes.

Ya, I just like less people, I know it's somewhat selfish, so be it.  I'm not a weekend warrior though.  I'm a sophmore in college and I just can't get up as much as I'd like.  I might get in 40 days this year which will be great, I have an epic pass in CO so I'll be out there a bunch, plus Baker is 2 hrs. away so I'm pretty stoked for this season.  Where do you ski at?  Summit? or elsewhere in CO?

Wow, thanks. That was my B. I was talking about Andy Mahre.
T-Rains is another reason Under Armour has been totally legit in my eyes. They have a team that wouldn't be there if they weren't giving back to the sport, cause in my eyes they totally are.

Nobody who goes to a Warren Miller show has any clue who clown school, 4Bi9, TC etc are....The demographic is 30 - 80 year olds. 4bi9, clown school etc are catering to the generation that is at hand now. 12 - 24 year olds who ski park. Granted I am 29 and love what TC, 4bi9 and Clown schools are doing but the fact is people who are going to see Warren Miller movies are buying their $300 set up(skis, poles, boots, bindings) at Sniagrab(The Sports Authortity) every 4 years where your TC , 4bi9, Clown School, etc are either buying their gear on this website in the BST forum or buying from local shops who sell moment, On3p, etc....You quoted Jibij earlier so hell i will throw SCOTT in there too, thing is with Jibij yes, Josh ruled, his shop ruled, but I am willing to bet 75% of his sales were Internet based, not locally.

That Warren Miller crowd that buys the $300 full set up from Sports authority, dicks, etc is buying more skis/outerwear/etc in a weekend than the small brands sell all year. These sales are 100% independent from the sales at the local shop. A 40 year old weekend warrior is buying non twin tips and stuff that is not sold at the core local shop.

Look at chairlift stats, soo say Vail has 1,000,000 visitors a year, how many of them are going to be on twin tips shredding the park? Maybe 75,000 if we are lucky...

We are talking about 2 completely different buyers and 2 completely different skis here, twin tip versus non twin tip, baggy clothes versus non baggy clothes, etc you get the point.
 
You cant compare WME vs 4bi9, same as you cant compare Dicks, or Backcountry.com to Jibij(RIP) it does not validate your argument at all. This website is awesome and supports our niche (or core if you want to call it, sorry rogge) part of the market, however without companies/shops of all shapes and sizes the Ski Industry will not exist at all.

So on that note the best post in here yet was from Tyler, so who can give some valid answers to the following...

I agree about less people on the mountain. I don't ride that much on weekends unless it is a comp, really nice day or pow day. I'm based out of Breck and ski Breck or Keystone on any given day. I have the epic pass as well so I like Vail on pow days.

No, no, and no.

i think that many people will stick to what kit they can afford or know - when i brought my first pair of twins ( a few years ago) in my local shop they had either 4frnt (pretty new at the time), armada, line or atomic and salomon. i ended up going for atomic, not because the lines/armadas/4frnt were any less well built, but for the simple fact that i knew that atomic skis were the real deal, made in austria and built to last. there was no doubt that the other brands were just as good quality, but being (at the time) relativity new companies there was no chance that i wished to risk my money on some brands i had never heard of before. now a few years on it is obvious that those companies are the real deal and I would have no problems parting with my money for some planks from them.

Why do we want to make this mainstream? Personal I guess, I certainly don't

Do you like crowded ass mountains? ......

Why do we want jibyards franchised in every neighborhood?  How about various of jibyard type places, all independant and dfferent, that's my idea.  No conglomerates

Is this just a business model? Skiing industry isn't super profitable compared to others that companeis who produce ski stuff have their fingers in.  If said companies get cuts, guess what goes first.........

Are we recruiting people to ski? Think crowded, think everyone and their brothers girlfriends moms grandma

What is this a religion?
Cant it just be "our" thing, and if people can't take the time to find out about skiing like freeride, freestyle, BC etc. etc. then maybe they don't deserve it.  I mean out of EVERYONE who goes to a mountain and skis every year how many of them see NS types?  Probably 100% of them.  Trust me, we (freeride, freestyle, BC, NS) have at least a small presence at every mountain.  They (the mainstream) know about our skiing, in the back of their minds.  They just don't give a shit, they could care less, they would rather take their kids to a soccer game every weekend in the family minivan, plus skiing is fucking expensive, and unless the prices were reduced so drasticaly (like companies just all fold) it would still be too expensive for most people, especially in this nice recession. 
Why do we want every family o go skiing every weekend?

I guess I'm a close minded regressive bastard huh

Mountains are already crowded, with a huge influx of people we won't be able to sustain it.  The bigger a mountain gets the more money it costs to use their products and services.  The prices rises faster than the benefits.  I've seen it happen at almsot every mountain I've ever been to.  Don't say inflation, that is not the case. 

If you can't afford gear from core (I even cringe when I say it now) companies that's cool, I'd never tell somebody they can't ski because of what they wear.

I think big companies just don't give any incentives to people to buy their gear, a lot of them flourish only because the customer is misinformed.  With a little thought people could find sick deals, I doubt I've ever paid over 50% retail for anything (I'll ocassionally even buy shit like Arc'Teryx, if I get an insane deal on it).  Big companies are usually just have stuff that is "there" at the big box store and there are no small/grass roots/underground stuff that may be superior, and can be priced less (in all fairness it can also be far higher).  If the consumer doesn't make an effort to be informed (in this industry/culture) they don't deserve to have it shared with them.  Skiing's not like so underground and exclusive that it's hard to know about.  I guess I just have a different mentality than most??