Terrorists Kill One Million+ People.

Why don't you attempt to operate that ball of mush between your ears before you write something so stupid and assuming.

If people would cease and desist with the mindless posts, we wouldn't have this problem. I will dispute things I disagree with, but I will much more vigorously dispute inaccurate claims (your death toll stat for example).

Giving people inaccurate and biased misinformation only contributes further to problems. How the fuck did the US get in Iraq in the first place? It was because of bad information. Just because some crock of shit you pulled form the internet happens to support your viewpoint does not make it accurate or useful.

The WHO produced an estimate at 151,000 in which they could produce a death certificate for every person killed by violence, which makes me think your poll too, is highly inaccurate.

I also think that for every person killed by violence for whom they can produce a death certificate, there are several more that they could not locate or do not consider causualties of war because they did not die directly from violence (perhaps they starved or died from contaminated water).

I think I know where you're going with this, but nevertheless, no, I would not consider myself part of the Jewish religion.

It is relavent because Zionist Jews have motivation to downplay the negatives of the Iraq war so that America would be more willing to support a war with Iran, which would serve Israel's interests greatly. Maybe he should have asked if he has any ties to the state of Israel, but nonetheless.

Oh, and my "superior intelligence" does get "exercise". It's called college.

So you rather go along with what everyone else is saying instead of using your own mind and doing a little reading? I even posted the link, you didn't bother to read or click on it. This generating is full of a bunch of lemmings. People wonder why the American people allow things like the Patriot Act and Guantanamo Bay to go on. Take a note from Descartes, question everything.

You don't draw the line between war and genocide. 1 million dead is terrible in a modern war thats lasted four years. 913 dead a day would be considered genocide by ANY war tribunal. In the 1920s MAYBE some crazy off the handle war tribunal would say its okay, but MAYBE. You can't just throw away civilian deaths now a days,  in the past they blamed it on lack of tech, thats not possible anymore.

Why are you bringing up nuclear weapons? If the US bombs and utterly destroys another nations military, what nuclear threat would they pose? How could they possibly give that "fierce retribution?" Even if the other nation still had it, they wouldn't dare use it cause of the repercussions. Plus, the US, NATO, The UN and other organizations have taken steps to stop threatening nations like Iran from receiving nuclear weapons.

Just.... no.

^You ARE a terrorist, so why are you even in this thread?

That would be me, i'm one of those sneaky white muslims.

haha

yeah fuck the popo

I've known about this for years, even in 2002 the numbers were staggering. Genocide at its best. US Holocaust.

Wow dude, you SERIOUSLY missed all of my points there. To paragraph 1, i read your website. I've read multiple websites. The 1 million was a hypothetical number to EMPHASIZE A POINT. I said that HAD THERE BEEN 1 million deaths, over 5 years of war, then I would not consider that terrible by what COULD have happened. I would hardly consider myself a 'lemming'. Nor should you, you don't even know me.

On top of that, you are bringing it in as a genocide now? No one even knows how those deaths have originated. Some statistics consider people who died short of the average life expectancy a 'wartime death' due to 'stressful environments'. In addition to that, there are civil wars going on all over Iraq that are also adding on to the deathtoll, that is being placed at America's feet. There are no accurate studies out there, so many of them are full of shit.

I'm bringing up nuclear weapons because unless there is a mass proliferation in the very very near future, I am almost positive we will see one dropped. The 'fierce retribution' I spoke of was against countries with a teched military, like ours. Think about it, all it takes is one nuke to fall into the wrong hands of an extremist who does not agree with the war going on and shit will hit the fan. Our government could be waging a war with very little civilian deaths, but you can't guarantee someone else will. It's a two way street. Even if the technology EXISTS to save the lives of civilians, that does not guarantee that other groups will choose to use it, and with more powerful and deadly weapons at their disposal you may see even the complete opposite. And no matter who is trying to stop dangerous governments from getting nuclear weapons, they won't be able to stop it forever. It's really not that hard to make a nuke anymore.

yeah i hate to sound like a dick, but what were those 1 million people going to do to this world?

Dude If I had to feel sorry for every single person who died in this world too young and for the wrong reasons, I would never be happy because they're is too many. Their lives are stats, unless like I've said you've known them. Think about a best friend, girl friend, parent, and try to compare the sorrow you feel when they die to the sorrow you feel when 88,000 die. Fuckin' uncomparable. Humans are emotional, and with no emotional connection I couldn't feel bad for 88,000 dying.

Yeah, it's genocide against terrorism.

Yeah they flew planes into our buildings. Regardless or not if they had WMD's we are still fighting terrorists and have shut down much of Al Qaeda, but all people are concerned with is that we fight for oil (Notice low prices at pumps? I fuckin dont)

I just want to add that on top of whatever number you all are debating on being the actual death told for THIS iraq war... the gulf war left 1.5 million dead. Since 1990, we've been killing iraqis like it's our job.

Not to mention Saddam Hussein was gasing his own people.

Fucking unreal how dumb some people are. For your information, seeing as you've been living under a rock for the past 7 years, IRAQ DID NOT FLY PLANES INTO OUR BUILDINGS. IRAQ WAS INVADED BECAUSE WE SUSPECTED THEM OF HAVING WMD'S, NOT BECAUSE OF 9/11!!!!!!

And to your other post, guess who gave Hussein the gas/chemical weapons?
The good old United States of America, so he could protect his oil fields from Iran.

Rowen is right. This is a bogus number. Plus, think of who made these reports and why they may want the death tolls to appear higher than they are.

That's hardly a valid point. The US among other superpowers has outfitted many many smaller countries with weapons over the past century. It's just how it works.

First off, the 1,000,000 million death statistic is absolutely ridiculous.  As mentioned earlier, it would take over 500 civilian deaths a day, every day, for the past 4 years to reach such a number. 

Also, as a general theme, I think everyone in this thread needs to learn how to exercise skepticism when looking at polls, media outlets, and news in general.  Believe it or not, most every article or poll has some amount of political/personal slant in it.  As a result, while the article presents certain facts, it does so with an aim to push the reader towards its own bias. 

If we would have been more skeptical in the run-up to the Iraq war, we may not be having this discussion and wouldn't have to worry about how many deaths there were in Iraq. 

Now, back to the death toll.  While the number of deaths in Iraq is too high and are a result of the U.S.'s invasion of Iraq, one also has to take into consideration the type of warfare the Iraqi insurgents have decided to use in fighting America.  By using methods such as car bombs, roadside bombs, and suicide bombings, they willingly risk, or in some cases purposefully, hurting innocent civilians.  It is these methods that account for a huge portion of the death toll.  American and British soldiers are not running around killing innocent people on regular basis.  Now I realize that these methods of war wouldn't be taking place if there wasn't a war in the first place, but many of you seem to be placing too large of a blame of the death toll in the American military and failing to recognize the very large roll the insurgents have. 

Also, when Saddam was in power, he killed over 180,000 people according to Iraqi prosecutors.  So, not justifying the war, at least think about that. 

i believe that would be ONE out of every 24. and im pretty sure the number includes all fighting related deaths, whether at the hands of US soldiers or not. the point is sunnis and shiites werent blowing each other up this much (at least not in saddam's iraq) before we went in. when you think about how about 5-10 well-equipped, strategically placed, armed american soldiers die per day, its certainly reasonable that in the almost 5 years weve been there about a million iraqis, including those fighting each other and us and including civilians, could have been killed. it could be a little high, but im pretty sure ive seen that number before as a professionally calculated, reasonable estimate.

That doesn't make it right.

This is an interesting thread, but please do the following before posting:
1. Read the whole thread
2. Think a little bit about what you are saying
3. If you think the US was behind the acts of 9/11, just stay the fuck out of this thread.

I didn't say it makes it right. We funded Al Qaeda too during the 90's, and now we call them a bunch of raging terrorists and we are bent on their destruction. Go figure.

a lot of people seem to forget...this is a war. People die. Sure, we may not like it, the war may not be justified etc etc etc, but what it all comes down to is that we are fighting a war, and so people will die. Now, I can barely remember what was on the news each night before we got daily reports of how many civilians were killed by a suicide bomber, or which local soldier was killed in Iraq in the last few days.

It feels like it's been like this for most of my life, which isn't true. But regardless of any facts or figures, it simply is almost impossible to get an accurate measure of how many deaths there have been, unless it's Americans. This is a war, bad things are going to happen, people are going to die.

The War against Terrorism is no more a war than the War against Drugs.

i dont think many american citiznes if any where killed in WW2

Hmm Pearl Harbor perhaps?

good. im glad were killing them.. thats a million less terrosits in the world...

Jesus H Christ, I was fucking drunk last night after a birthday party, give my arithmetic a break. I also managed to catch it and correct myself later, way to read.

its always been a lot higher than what the news reports. talked to a guy who was first to surge into iraq, this was a while ago, and just his troop had killed more people than what the news reported for the war ALTOGETHER. again these are not all civilian deaths so dont think we are out there killing everyone. still its almost one million that shouldn't have been killed.

note to thread creator, dont toss around the word "terrorist" when you show to have no clue as to its meaning. you basically made fun of all the men and women who stepped up to a job so your pussy ass didnt have to.

"Ok, how could I have better presented the information? Said heres how many people died, but this number is insignificant because I CANNOT UNDERSTAND DEATH and therefore I should support the war, because this death toll does not make me cringe blah blah blah. How do you think that would make me sound?"

Do you see what i've bolded in that statement you made? Yeah? Well, that part you completely made up for yourself. I was harping on the fact that you were using semantics inappropriate for human deaths ("only 2997 dead"), using a bullshit number of 1 million dead Iraqis to push a political point. You are exploiting the grief of others for politics sake here. I mean, you named the thread "terrorists kill one million + people"... And by terrorists you mean the united states... And i'm supposed to buy that that isn't any sort of political spiel? That is my only beef, and what I pointed out.

"Truly american hahahah yeah right, seeing as our country is based around christianity and we have fucking evangelicals running for president. That statement would have been a truly french."

I'm going to disregard that last part, because it makes no sense. I said it was a trully american thing to equate Christianity with definitive set of ideological goals and a set party affiliation, because it is a HUGE thing about America, which I deplore, that all Christians are either grouped or choose to be affiliated with the conservative base, which may hold moral similarities with them, but does not follow Christianity in its social goals. "Love thy neighbor" is better represented in the the Democratic party than the Republican party. It isn't as simple as "Ha! almostaskier's christian, he's a neocon fucktard!"...

"But yeah, Im a sheep, because I don't let a corrupt religion lead my life. How about you think for yourself? You are a goddamn evangelical. "

Yeaaaaaaaah, I have been completely brainwashed, whereas you have had absolutely NO influence from parents or society your whole life, you are a construct of your own will power and reason, and there is no way in hell that you were influenced into your positions by other forces at play in the world. Also, need I remind you of a little something? What you've gone and done is attack me based on my beliefs, when they are absolutely irrelevant to the matter at hand. Red herring much?

Now, "corrupt religion". Perhaps you would like to explain to me where the core tenets of Christianity are "corrupt" I could on at length, but if you knew anything about the theology of Christianity, you'd know that it is the furthest from corrupt one can get. Again, "love thy neighbor as yourself"; is THAT a bad thing or a good thing? People corrupt religion for their own personal goals. This is especially true with the Catholic Church. The religion in and of itself though, at its core, is nothing other than benevolent and forgiving. But, I know you know shit all about Christianity other than what you've grown up to understand about it, so I don't expect you to know what's up. You even demonstrate this next line.

"No offense man, but that is the most dogmatic and small minded group of people on this earth! And you again are self proclaimed! One who feels it is his civic duty to inform anyone who looks at his profile that he is a catholic...something wrong with that."

Now, before i get on to this, another English lesson: to say "No offense" is not to be able to say whatever the hell you want afterward. No offense, but you're a dumbass. See? That's offensive, no matter what you've said before.

Secondly, Christian's brains are as big as other people's... Oh wait, OK, now I see what you mean. You've gone and applied a blatant overgeneralization to discredit me, based on nothing than your own opinion. "Liberals are the biggest poopy heads in the world! What you've said is now invalid!"

Yeah, I'm self proclaimed... I don't quite see why that's a problem. You're a self proclaimed "think for himself" -er, there's something wrong about that. I don't exactly know how you know that my motivation to post that on my personal profile had to do with civic duty, but you have me peggedpausenot.

Now... You've called me an evangelical, a dogmatic small minded individual, and catholic, all as your representation of Christianity. I'll have you know evangelicals, and catholics, are not the same. Like at all. Heard of the reformation? Luther? Calvin? Huss? The systematic killing of protestants by the Church? Indulgences? No? Read up little one, you don't know shit about Christianity.

"Ok cool you have some reasonable ideals, at least you aren't completely brainwashed..."

Hey, thanks man!

"So I am so sorry I sparked a nerve with JC number 2 and that my moral standards sub par.
This fits my harsh generalization about you, because you as an evangelical immediately act as though my morality standards are unacceptable, and only YOU are enlightened to call me out on that."

Again, see that part in bold? Yeah, you made that up. Did it make you feel good? I called you out on the bullshit number and careless manipulation of statistics to push a political message when we are dealing with human beings' deaths. That's. It.

Now, to leave you with a good notion about Christianity, did you know that the concept of universal equality that you find in today's liberalism was coined by none other than the Christians? Funny story, it wasn't up until then that people could even be caught thinking that "all men are equal before God". You know how far that idea has shaped history, that we're all equal? Hell, it helped Americans overthrow the Brits, the bourgeoisie overthrow the king, it helped Marx change a few notions about society; you take this idea for granted... Gasp! You're a bloody Christian!  Indoctrinated into thinking that women are equal to men and all men are equal under the sun! That was the offspring of progressive Christian thought! burn him!

well if you think about it... thats one million less people in the world.  its called population control.

I almost said that earlier too haha. I decided to save some of my cynical nature for other threads.

you, sir, are a prick conspiracy  theorist, who does not understand the facts behind what happened, and you obviously  dont know anyone who was immediately affected by 9/11 (as in a family member's death, they were there etc.), and you should crawl into a hole and sit there and starve to death for what you have said

if you dont support the usa...

sorry that should say "if you dont support the usa *and you are a US citizen*"

owned.

have the drug runners ever flown planes into buildings, or publicly announced their intent to kill us all? And i don't believe we've ever really invaded an occupied a country in the war on drugs. I would hardly consider them the same, except that we aren't declaring war on any single country. Drug runners try to avoid people trying to catch them, not loading a car with coke and bombs and blowing it along with their enemies.

And in rolls the most ignorant and 'sheepheaded' argument so far to grace this wonderful thread.

Do you see what i've bolded in that statement you made? Yeah? Well, that part you completely made up for yourself. I was harping on the fact that you were using semantics inappropriate for human deaths ("only 2997 dead"), using a bullshit number of 1 million dead Iraqis to push a political point. You are exploiting the grief of others for politics sake here. I mean, you named the thread "terrorists kill one million + people"... And by terrorists you mean the united states... And i'm supposed to buy that that isn't any sort of political spiel? That is my only beef, and what I pointed out.

Yeah I see it, and of course I made it up. I was stating the complete opposite view on the matter, because THAT is what you are apparently quarreling over. You say I am raping statistics to push my personal views. Well guess what, whether this is a terrible thing or not, it is reality. I don't know what else to say. Peoples conception of major catastrophe is so biased, I am merely trying to relate something many of us went through on our home soil (911), how bad that made you feel, and then relate that number of 2997 to the 600,000+ dead in iraq. Understand? And again answer my question, how could I have better presented the information? What the fuck do you want from me?

I'm going to disregard that last part, because it makes no sense. I said it was a trully american thing to equate Christianity with definitive set of ideological goals and a set party affiliation, because it is a HUGE thing about America, which I deplore, that all Christians are either grouped or choose to be affiliated with the conservative base, which may hold moral similarities with them, but does not follow Christianity in its social goals. "Love thy neighbor" is better represented in the the Democratic party than the Republican party.

 I said it was truly french because they are a very non-religious country. Ok, are all christians neo cons? No, absolutely not. But the fact is, the majority are, and evangelicals are THE WORST! Are you really using a commandment to justify catholicism in government? I would have you know that they were around LONG before Christianity came about, so please, don't be ignorant and claim they are solely Christian ideals. They are basic moral laws which have been around for ages.

Yeaaaaaaaah, I have been completely brainwashed, whereas you have had absolutely NO influence from parents or society your whole life, you are a construct of your own will power and reason, and there is no way in hell that you were influenced into your positions by other forces at play in the world. Also, need I remind you of a little something? What you've gone and done is attack me based on my beliefs, when they are absolutely irrelevant to the matter at hand. Red herring much?

I would be pleased to send you an 8 page philosophy debating the dogmatism of organized religion. First off, no one develops ideals any other way that real world experience. However, one can examine every side of the story and Then develop a view, which I am proud to say I have done. I am a man of reason. For you information, politics never were influenced on me by my parents, and if they were, my father was a conservative. Yeah maybe I am being a little unfair attacking your religion, but at first it was more of a joke, as I was frustrated by your nonstop attack.


Now, "corrupt religion". Perhaps you would like to explain to me where the core tenets of Christianity are "corrupt" I could on at length, but if you knew anything about the theology of Christianity, you'd know that it is the furthest from corrupt one can get. Again, "love thy neighbor as yourself"; is THAT a bad thing or a good thing? People corrupt religion for their own personal goals. This is especially true with the Catholic Church. The religion in and of itself though, at its core, is nothing other than benevolent and forgiving. But, I know you know shit all about Christianity other than what you've grown erstup to undand about it, so I don't expect you to know what's up. You even demonstrate this next line.

May I let you know I was raised catholic/went to catholic elementary school, so don't fucking tell me I don't understand catholicism. After dropping the religion I still went on to learn loads of information about Christianity. I am very interested in history and religion, so I am always reading about it. And guess what? It is indeed one of the evilest religions known to man. I could write you a book about it if you like. Or better yet go read some of Sam Harris' work. Yeah its forgiving great, I am so happy the serial rapist/murders in prison can be born again with god and they are then great people!!!(as long as they toss bills in the collect basket every sunday) You are trying again to justify catholicism with one fucking commandment. OF COURSE I agree with most of the commandments, they are basic MORALITY!!!!! Again, if you think christianity is responsible for the 10 commandments, you have some reading to attend to. Yeah its such a loving religion. Such a religion which also endorses multiple atrocity's in the bible such as, it is ok to beat and kill your son/daughter if he/she were to ever talk back to you! Or how about it is right under god to own a slave, so long as that slave is not from your country! I wish I had links to these to show you, as they were direct quotes from the bible in a book I read. 

ME"No offense man, but that is the most dogmatic and small minded group of people on this earth! And you again are self proclaimed! One who feels it is his civic duty to inform anyone who looks at his profile that he is a catholic...something wrong with that."

YOU Now, before i get on to this, another English lesson: to say "No offense" is not to be able to say whatever the hell you want afterward. No offense, but you're a dumbass. See? That's offensive, no matter what you've said before.

Typical, attack my use of language rather than address the fucking statement which is reality.

Secondly, Christian's brains are as big as other people's... Oh wait, OK, now I see what you mean. You've gone and applied a blatant overgeneralization to discredit me, based on nothing than your own opinion. "Liberals are the biggest poopy heads in the world! What you've said is now invalid!"

If you read what I wrote, I clearly said I was making a harsh generalization, and it seems to me I was dead on...

Yeah, I'm self proclaimed... I don't quite see why that's a problem. You're a self proclaimed "think for himself" -er, there's something wrong about that. I don't exactly know how you know that my motivation to post that on my personal profile had to do with civic duty, but you have me peggedpausenot.

Ohh I dont know, maybe because this is a skiing website??? You need to proclaim your faith for what fucking reason on a ski site? The only reason someone would do that is because they WANT people to know their faith. Umm thats not self proclaimed???????? Evangelicals doctrine  calls for "the act of persuading others of one's beliefs". Hmm coincidence?

Now... You've called me an evangelical, a dogmatic small minded individual, and catholic, all as your representation of Christianity. I'll have you know evangelicals, and catholics, are not the same. Like at all. Heard of the reformation? Luther? Calvin? Huss? The systematic killing of protestants by the Church? Indulgences? No? Read up little one, you don't know shit about Christianity.

Again, I dont know shit about christianity...ok yup you are spot on again!!!  I in no way can write all of my knowledge on the subject as I could debate for days. I have no bias of religion what so ever, and speak from an educated and evaluated view point. Do you know why evangelicalism is growing so fast? Because you are the assholes that grant instant born again status to the worst/sickest people in this country, and your doctrine calls for conversion of others. Hmm I wonder why its the largest sect of catholicism in the states...

Hey, thanks man!

No Problem!



Yup everyone is equal...so long as you are christian. They are so loving and caring!!! Like how the pope stood by and supported the nazi's when eliminating the jews. Nazi's stormed into italy blocks away from vatican city, and rounded up all the jews. But where was his holiness and chrisitanity? He could have easily stopped the raid...because that is what is expected of such a moral deity. Sure is christianity more reasonable that say islam...but atheism/agnosticism/buddhism ect ect ect is light years more reasonable. Your religions liberal ideals are set to provide further conversion and nothing more. I.E africa, we will help the poor in africa, with gods word and teaching!!! Where as the atheist thinks, lets help the africans starving because that is what's right!

only 2,990 innocent people killed?  you shouldn't talk about 9/11 with that kind of disrespect.  i don't agree with the war by any means but you should show some respect to the families who lost relatives in that attack.  War is different from terrorist attacks.  I think your view would be a little different if you were directly effected by an event like that.  and 1,000,000 is a hugely inflated estimate.

Clearly one didn't read the whole thread. Many brought up the same point, and I explained the use of the word "only". In no way am I trying to disrespect the families of 9/11. I happen to live in nys and have tons of family in the city. I have visited ground zero to pay my respects as well.  And we discuss the 1 million  estimate all through out the thread, so I suggest you read everyones posts.

your right i only read half of the first page and wanted to give my opinion

Alright, I'm gonna respond this last time then I'm through with this thread...

Now, if you were to go through the thread, you'd realize my one gripe was with your disrespectful use of statistics for a political goal. You were clearly being political, clearly overstating human deaths to get a point. That was it. Then, you had to be pissy about what I said, and go on and attack me with a stale witticism (So I guess that puts you on the retarded end of the political spectrum, not left, nor right...south.), hence why I even care.

You are obviously needing some sort of target to vent all of your misguided and inaccurate rage about Christianity, and I guess that'd be me. However, I don't think I deserve the abuse, and I certainly won't be shat on by an ignoramus. So let me set you straight

Yeah I see it, and of course I made it up.

That, right there, is where you lose all credibility. You've just admitted to putting words in my mouth that I did not use, imply or otherwise berate you with. Why are you trying to battle against an idea that I never stated, don't agree with, and yet try to pin on me? Are you thinking along partisan lines again, or do I embody everything you hate in the world? Either way, you're way off.
I was stating the complete opposite view on the matter, because THAT is what you are apparently quarreling over. You say I am raping statistics to push my personal views. Well guess what, whether this is a terrible thing or not, it is reality. I don't know what else to say. Peoples conception of major catastrophe is so biased, I am merely trying to relate something many of us went through on our home soil (911), how bad that made you feel, and then relate that number of 2997 to the 600,000+ dead in iraq. Understand?

Now, that right there is not what the thread started out saying, because last I checked, you said the United States, or "terrorists kill[ed] one million plus people". That'd be the political piece pushed by the number of approximate dead from an iffy study that you exploited to make people "evaluate their stance". That was it, you made this political and claimed not to.

And again answer my question, how could I have better presented the information? What the fuck do you want from me?

I dunno, say "Death toll in Iraq has reached 1 Million+ People" and then not feign political neutrality?

 I said it was truly french because they are a very non-religious country.

The French are a very secular country in all ways, until you ask the population what religion they hold. 80 percent would say they're Catholic, though you could never tell by church attendance or otherwise. Does that mean that the French are Catholic, or secular? Here we begin to see a clue as to why you're so far off base in your appreciation of Christianity: there is a difference between a nominal Christian and a true Christian. If a Snowblader would say they're skiing, would you say that they are actually skiing, or that they think they are when skiing is represented more appropriately by other concepts (ha, i make pun!)?

Ok, are all christians neo cons? No, absolutely not. But the fact is, the majority are, and evangelicals are THE WORST!

Man, "absolutely not" and "the majority are" are two very different notions of magnitude... And "THE WORST" is a subjective value judgment, not some sort of fact broski.

Are you really using a commandment to justify catholicism in government?

Now, why would you go to the depths of your ass to find a jewel like this if I never even brought "catholicism in government" up, ever, ever. You are using me as a platform to throw all the hate filled sewage of a rotten brain, pinning straw men and red herrings left and right to attack when I am not the one who supports, demands or thinks any such thing. You're just reaching for every little argument you've ever thought of and throwing it my way when I have no said any of it. You even admitted it.

I would have you know that they were around LONG before Christianity came about, so please, don't be ignorant and claim they are solely Christian ideals. They are basic moral laws which have been around for ages.

Yeah? Well that'd be your ideological " common sense" talking. We have been so imbued with the concept of equality that it has be come anathema to even question whether or not equality is something to be attained. You may be on to something with the fact that equality IS a absolutely good thing, but the fact remains that until Christianity began to spread, equality of all men and women was not something to be attained, it was against the "order" of the world. You can ask people in Greek democracy if they had the same conception of equality that we do, the serfs and the kings and the clergy and the "natural order of the world"... Christian theology was the first to state that all men and women are equal.

Which brings up a great segue... Christian theology at its core about the relationships between men is about equality of all men and women before God. But, the Kings said that the hierarchy of society was by divine right, that the haves and the have nots are divinely ordained, with no class dynamism or any potential change. The Clergy emphasized this as well. But wait, the BIble is clear about the equality of all people, so how did the Clergy say the exact opposite? Well, tying in again to what I've said before, there is a difference between what Christianity, as a faith, says, and what people who claim to be Christian say and do. The core tenets of Christianity can easily be perverted by selfish power lust, and has to this day. Any one can bash Christianity, like your self, without knowing what the faith truly states and people will assume that is what it truly is about. And so on. Now, in the middle ages, the literacy rate was essentially zip in the lower levels of society, meaning that anyone could say what the Bible said, true or not, and have everyone believe them because they can't look it up for themselves.

Now, the Catholic Church... hmm, I'll say something later, I think you mention it again as synonymous with evangelical Christianity, again, even though you're in the wrong.

I would be pleased to send you an 8 page philosophy debating the dogmatism of organized religion. First off, no one develops ideals any other way that real world experience. However, one can examine every side of the story and Then develop a view, which I am proud to say I have done. I am a man of reason. For you information, politics never were influenced on me by my parents, and if they were, my father was a conservative. Yeah maybe I am being a little unfair attacking your religion, but at first it was more of a joke, as I was frustrated by your nonstop attack.

You have not looked at both sides of the story, because you, among other blatant ignorant statements, equate Catholicism with evangelical Christianity. You are only a man of reason in so far that you seem to have cognitive function, but that title is reserved for other people to attribute to you based on your arguments. So far, C+. Now, you not only claim to be above influence from others, but you apparently don't even have a grasp on what constitutes humor. You joke with people about their religion to then attack them on nonsensical ideas with hate and insult? Ha, ha?

May I let you know I was raised catholic/went to catholic elementary school, so don't fucking tell me I don't understand catholicism.

I will tell you you don't understand catholicism, at least within the context of Christianity as a whole. I will even contend that a good percent of people who go to church don't understand Christianity as they should.

After dropping the religion I still went on to learn loads of information about Christianity. I am very interested in history and religion, so I am always reading about it. And guess what? It is indeed one of the evilest religions known to man. I could write you a book about it if you like. Or better yet go read some of Sam Harris' work. Yeah its forgiving great, I am so happy the serial rapist/murders in prison can be born again with god and they are then great people!!!(as long as they toss bills in the collect basket every sunday) You are trying again to justify catholicism with one fucking commandment.

You dropped the religion as if you'd enrolled in a course. You never were a Christian by choice I take it? Ahhh, welcome to the Catholic Church. Now, remember what I said about separating man-made institutions from the theology they supposedly represent to see if the two are actually in sync? You say you're interested in history and religion, well here's a little something for you. Before that, let me tell you something, read it and read it well:

I am not Catholic, nor do I support Catholicism. Phew, glad I have that out of the way, now for the reality check.

Heard of the protestants? The reformation? Luther? Huss? Calvin? Yeah, they thought exactly like you a few hundred years before you even thought you'd tapped into some epiphany about the Catholic Church. They thought it was bullshit that the Church was charging money for salvation, that salvation was based on works, not faith, like the Bible says, and other such trickery wrought on the ignorant masses. They decided to split from Catholicism, and began the movement that now is embodied in evangelical Christianity, which is based on the reading and studying of the Bible, with it as your core doctrine and reference, instead of some hierarchy dictating what you believe.

Now, the Bible states that all men are equal before God, as sinners. The entire spiel is that you and I are no better than the rapists and killers before God as a result of our actions, only in terms of our faith. That is where the idea of universal equality comes from: that all human beings are valuable and equal as human beings before their creator, and that actions and status and wealth mean nothing to the goodness of an individual nor are they any sort of redeeming quality.

Now, you have a hierarchy in your mind, that you are above the killer and the rapist, that they are somehow less human than you. With that in mind, you can't justify a second chance, or a chance at forgiveness for their actions. You sounded exactly like a republican, believing in the hopelessness of rehabilitation of prisoners, that they can't change, or have made a terrible mistake. You also fell into the Catholic trick that paying into the church is what makes them better people. That may be right for catholicism, but you know it's bullshit. Guess what? So did the reformers way before you and I, and I am also disgusted by its practice, as is any true Christian, because it does not reflect Christian teaching at all.


OF COURSE I agree with most of the commandments, they are basic MORALITY!!!!! Again, if you think christianity is responsible for the 10 commandments, you have some reading to attend to. Yeah its such a loving religion. Such a religion which also endorses multiple atrocity's in the bible such as, it is ok to beat and kill your son/daughter if he/she were to ever talk back to you! Or how about it is right under god to own a slave, so long as that slave is not from your country! I wish I had links to these to show you, as they were direct quotes from the bible in a book I read. 

For that first part, see what I wrote again about the "common sense" of it all. Thank Christianity for making it so obvious to everyone. Also, you better damn well sure believe that Christianity is responsible for the ten commandments, because it only really applies for this one God. Oh, you mean the concepts? Yeah, morality has an absolute origin, and I'd say it is very well reflected in the commandments. That argument is for another time though, because you got me annoyed again.

You seem pissed at my "one commandment" thing. You know Jesus? Yeah he's sorta a big deal. Anyways, he was asked which is the most important commandment. He said to "love the Lord your God" and "Love they neighbor as yourself". Then you have the rest covered. That is at the core of Christianity.

Now, about the Old Testament rules for ISRAEL in the Law of Moses, they don't apply to anyone today. Jesus fulfilled the time of the law of Moses and  emphasized what is truly important. Those rules were bound by historical context within the Jewish people and do not apply to anyone today. That is the theological teaching of the NEW Testament. Jesus pissed off the Pharisees by continuously re-affirming the two commandments as opposed to the Law of Moses and the law of man they stood for. But you know that, right?

Typical, attack my use of language rather than address the fucking statement which is reality.

Now this bites me, because you're the one invented crap and then attacking it. You've avoided talking about anything I've said the whole thread, why stop now?

If you read what I wrote, I clearly said I was making a harsh generalization, and it seems to me I was dead on...

Wait, so was it a harsh generalization, or dead on? For a "man of reason", your reasoning sucks.

Ohh I dont know, maybe because this is a skiing website??? You need to proclaim your faith for what fucking reason on a ski site? The only reason someone would do that is because they WANT people to know their faith. Umm thats not self proclaimed???????? Evangelicals doctrine  calls for "the act of persuading others of one's beliefs". Hmm coincidence?

Um... I just said I was self proclaimed, so yeah, it is self proclaimed. I don't get how your moronic rhetorical question with 10 sure signs of insanity tacked on to the end makes any sense, because I am a self proclaimed evangelical Christian. I also feel that my faith is a big part of me, and me, personally... Personal profile? I don't see how posting that on a profile you have to voluntarily click on to read is a Machiavellian scheme to convert people. If you're swayed by profile, you would be swayed by a brick wall as you walk by it.

Again, I dont know shit about christianity...ok yup you are spot on again!!! 

As I've demonstrated in the fact that you say that I am a supporter of Catholicism, when I am about the furthest from, both historically and theologically, I'd say yeah, you don't know shit.

I in no way can write all of my knowledge on the subject as I could debate for days. I have no bias of religion what so ever, and speak from an educated and evaluated view point.

It seems you are about to fellate yourself, open your eyes dude, that's gross... You sir, are more than a man, you are a God!

Do you know why evangelicalism is growing so fast? Because you are the assholes that grant instant born again status to the worst/sickest people in this country, and your doctrine calls for conversion of others. Hmm I wonder why its the largest sect of catholicism in the states...

Oh, we're handing out grants for salvation? Where, how come I didn't get any? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Oh wait, HEY! There you are, talking all Catholic again. You sure you dropped the faith?  Oh, and "sect of catholicism". Boy, you're a smart one you are. And "conversion of others" implies force doesn't it? AGAIN with putting things where they aren't. Christianity doesn't teach conversion by force, at all.

Yup everyone is equal...so long as you are christian. They are so loving and caring!!! Like how the pope stood by and supported the nazi's when eliminating the jews. Nazi's stormed into italy blocks away from vatican city, and rounded up all the jews. But where was his holiness and chrisitanity? He could have easily stopped the raid...because that is what is expected of such a moral deity.

Oh! There you are again, saying a load of bullshit no one has. Hey, are you using people as the compass for what a religion truly stands for again? Dammit man, such basics, so little effort. The Pope is a man. He is no "deity". He, his actions, and his followers actions, are not necessarily representative of the theology they say to have. You know how people lie, think about themselves and not others? Yeah, you can do that to religion too.

Sure is christianity more reasonable that say islam...but atheism/agnosticism/buddhism ect ect ect is light years more reasonable. Your religions liberal ideals are set to provide further conversion and nothing more. I.E africa, we will help the poor in africa, with gods word and teaching!!! Where as the atheist thinks, lets help the africans starving because that is what's right!

OH BOY! Hey, show me the atheist organizations that are helping Africa out, with no semblance of bias towards any religion or conception of benevolence towards all men derived from a religious one, because I sure as hell would think Africa would be OVERFLOODING with people helping them out if rich atheists had an impetus greater than a simple "instinctual" idea to do good to all men. Show me the Atheist Mother Teresa, the Atheist Red Cross. You like the concept of hospitals? Atheism didn't start that one...

Now, Islam, well that's just a religion where everyone blows themselves up.

Oops, I pulled a you! There are abolsutely no differences in Islam, they are all the same, think the same, do the same things! That's why Iraq would have been easy to defeat cos they're all the same int heir religious thought! OH God, again with being you! Man, thoughts hurt just trying to be formed up there.

So run along now my little boy "of reason" with no bias towards anything, you wouldn't want me to convert you through the zeroes and ones I'm sending your way.

Porn sites are better for fun. NS is better for getting hated on, politics and hating on people over politics.

What are you goiung to do in this world? It would be okay if you shot your self in the face I guess, after all you wont amount to anything special so you shouldnt have the right to a life.

This made it sound like I care about the situation tho, I do not care enough right now, also 1 mil is blow completely out of proportion, its more like 80 thou and that includes the "terrorists" we r fighting cuz most r citizens of Iraq that have normal jobs and just fight the US when they can. Or the poor Iraqis get paid to blow them selves up.