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Government Run Universal Health Care

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rhcp
Posts: 2598 - Karma: 18
So, what are the opinions out there for this type of system?  Should it be implemented in the US, do those of you in Canada like your treatment?
Dec 6 2007 11:18AM
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BrokenBones
Posts: 1274 - Karma: 694
Yes.  I'm from the USA and I'm jealous of most of Europe and Canada.  I'd rather pay higher taxes, than be unable to pay for a horribly over-priced, broken, and corrupt medical system.
Dec 6 2007 12:10PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
No because I'd rather pay more money and get good care than have to wait in line for mediocre care.
Dec 6 2007 12:17PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
yup, a tiered system would be OK with me too.
Dec 6 2007 12:23PM
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ax_murderer
Posts: 3322 - Karma: 30
horrible idea.
Dec 6 2007 12:26PM
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wrenegade
Posts: 6631 - Karma: 41
Trust me, you DO NOT want Canada's health care system. It sucks massive balls. Hardly anyone here is well versed enough in both medicine, economics and public policy, so I'm not going get into it any further except to say look at Japan and Scandanavian countries, not us.
Dec 6 2007 12:29PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
If the US moved to a socialized health care system, you can say bye bye to the entire American pharmaceutical industry.
Dec 6 2007 12:56PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
All I have to say about this is that it's nice not to have to worry about anything health-wise. And I've never had to wait in a line.
Dec 6 2007 12:58PM
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telestar6
Posts: 2102 - Karma: 44
I like the idea but you can definitely fuck it up just look at Canada.  Their hospitals are terrifying.  Personally I think it would be better for the government to simply step in a regulate the hell out of the current system.  The reason insurance and healthcare in the U.S. is because of all the malpractice suits.  If the government would step in and put a limit on settlements I think it would make a big difference,  Medical practices wouldn't have to pay out so much for their insurance because they wouldn't be getting sued all the damn time and that decrease in cost would be transfered on to the consumer.  Healthcare prices would be greatly reduced as well as the cost of insurance because of these lower prices.
Dec 6 2007 1:04PM
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telestar6
Posts: 2102 - Karma: 44
So what.  The pharmaceutical companies are some of the biggest crooks in the country. 
Dec 6 2007 1:06PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429

for starters universal health care will be a mess.. And if you need an example go look at Canada(sorry all peeps from Canada)
how many people have come to America to have a surgery because they get better care here, than they can get in Canada??
I know people who have done this because the wait was to long and there are better qualified doctors here in the USA..


Another example of social health care gone nuts, is in Europe where a man broke his ankle and is being refused care because he is a heavy smoker, and smoking makes the chance of recovery go down.... source http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1896536/posts

now imagine this scenario, you have been diagnosed with cancer and you have a slim chance to live. You are discussing your options with your doctor and he says this, "we are not going to fight the cancer because the chance is to high that you wont live anyway and it will cost the system to much money ". This is a very real possibility in the distant future because think about how much it costs to fight cancer, compared to fixing a simple ankle problem.

If you dont think i know what im talking about here is a story from my family, my great uncle was diagnosed with terminal cancer and was told by the first doctor he visited to "go home and settle any family problems you might have because there is almost no chance you will survive". my great uncle wasnt going to role over and play "dead" so with the first doctors words in mind he went and got a second view from a doctor at a special cancer clinic.. and he got the same diagnosis about the severity of the cancer, but these doctors agreed that some chance was better than no chance .. this story all took place three years ago, today he is alive and the cancer is still there, but he is ALIVE and the cancer is slowly going away.. this whole story would not have turned out the same in a country with social medicine where there is no competition between doctors.

sorry for the rant but i love this country, and way of life , way to much to just role over and watch it go down the drain
Dec 6 2007 1:07PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
They're also one of the largest contributors to the US economy.

I cant speak for you, but I frankly think its stupid to kill the competitive industry, have them all pull up stakes and move to India or China, cost Americans millions of jobs, and force this country to be even more dependent on imports.

Whatever floats your boat I guess.
Dec 6 2007 1:11PM
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PooterCrunk69
Posts: 228 - Karma: 10
Good care? Have you ever been in a hospital? They are so understaffed and if you don't have family and friends there to ask questions and get the nurses and doctors to actually see you, you could go days without getting much attention at all while still paying out the ass.  Over the summer my brother was in the hospital for a month and it sucked there. When he moved to Gaylord rehabilitation hospital the care he got was much better but still wasnt great, and its one of the best rehab places in the east. this is just one example. If you ask a majority of people who have been seriously hospitalized and they will tell you the care sucked.

Dec 6 2007 1:56PM
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Holte
Posts: 10730 - Karma: 7,744
The Canadians have it good. They get free healthcare for small health problems, and for serious health issues where the long lines matter, they can just come to the US and fork over some money. But if the US was to adopt a similar healthcare policy, where would we go when we needed heart surgery or a liver transplant? Mexico?
Dec 6 2007 2:02PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
I've been to the hospital a few times, 5 surgeries, 10+ broken bones, and while the ER may be a mess, I'd rather pay extra for surgeons that will do my surgeries in good time.

And how will universal care help your problem at all? You'll end up with lines for your operations, appointments that are months away, and a lack of doctors who don't want to work for a gov't salary.
Dec 6 2007 2:51PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
Pootercrunk, take a look at this last sentence and you'll understand what I mean by 'pay more for good care.'
Dec 6 2007 2:52PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
not to mention the congenital adrenal disorder I have, which has put me in the hospital a few times and made necessary monthly trips to an endocrinologist for 20 years now.
Dec 6 2007 3:10PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13044 - Karma: 18,270
Have you ever heard of the triage? It means they treat the most severe case first, then move down in priority, that is why when you scrape an elbow, a doctor will see you in 3 hours.

Universal health care is a lot better than the US. At least all of us can at least PAY...oh wait we dont, anyway everybody gets a fair portion of health car needs. It would just be better if our tax money would go more towards the healthcare centers.

WATCH SICKO, it explains everything


Dec 6 2007 3:56PM
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DANETRON
Posts: 6671 - Karma: 137
Im down with a plan that offers it to all people but i dont think that mandating that they get it and if they dont taking it out of thier pay check is the way to go
Dec 6 2007 4:01PM
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telestar6
Posts: 2102 - Karma: 44
Yeah but they are a bunch of crooks.  They charge more than double for their product in the U.S. than just about any other county because they know the insurance companies are picking up the tab.  People without insurance can't possibly afford pharmaceuticals.  There needs to be some kind of price regulation.  They need us more than they need them and a little pressure isn't going to cause them to pack up shop and leave.  There is too much money to be made. 
Dec 6 2007 4:04PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7598 - Karma: 20,034
yeah, its awesome that we don't have to pay like $ thousands for health care and stuff, but emergency room wait times are extraordinarily long, idk if its the same in the states or not. But my cousin who lives in Colorado broke his head skateboarding halfpipe when someone ran into him in mid air, almost died and his treatment was like $30 000+ and it would have been free if he was in Canada. having government sanctioned health care is definitely the way to go, but we have serious medical staff shortages since doctors and nurses, etc. are paid by the government, they're paycheck is more limited, but they make enough anyway, so i really don't think they should complain.
Dec 6 2007 4:07PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
taking into consideration the amount of time and money their education costs and the hours many doctors work, a gov't salary probably isn't too fair.
Dec 6 2007 4:08PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7598 - Karma: 20,034
yes, now they are looking at that kind of system in Canada, debating whether privatized health care should be legal, since not everyone will then have equal opportunities for the highest quality health care, so its not as democratic.
Dec 6 2007 4:10PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
they've been debating a two-tier system for a long time now, right?
Dec 6 2007 4:11PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7598 - Karma: 20,034
true, i was forgetting about that, but what they used to do was file bankruptcy when they were done school, then the government had to pay off their tuition. Plus post-secondary is waaaaaaay cheaper in Canada than teh US.
Dec 6 2007 4:30PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
They need us more than we need them? Thats bullshit. Its quite easy to do business elsewhere in a global economy. They wouldn't hesitate to leave if they can make a bigger profit someplace else.

You talk about people not being able to pay for insurance, but at the same time you ignore the enormous tax increase that would come with socialized health care. And taxes would need to increase significantly because the economy would take a huge hit from all the medical companies off-shoring. Your still getting hit in the wallet, but its just somebody else thats getting your money. Oh wait, why have everybody pay for it when we can just tax the shit out of rich and have them pay for everybody elses problems!

There is a case that can be made for price a ceilings, but the rest of this feel-good socialist banter probably would not work in the US economy. It works easily in Canada because they rely heavily on other countries products. Than Canadian pharmaceutical industry is tiny. It works well in Europe because they have the EU to fall back on and they can pool resources from other countries that do not have the same health care systems.
Dec 6 2007 4:36PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
*The
Dec 6 2007 4:38PM
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michelle
Posts: 6290 - Karma: 428
im moving to france

their health care seems amazing



im so sick of waiting for hours in the ER, getting wrong diagnosis', and waiting months to see specialized doctors. oh, and nevermind the cost. and calling the hospital beforehand to see if they take my insurance. and calling to get referrals for the smallest thing. the list goes on and on.

sure our doctors are amazing in the US, especially in boston. but i just dont know anymore
Dec 6 2007 4:40PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
Coming from someone that is working in the medical industry, we are already paying for peoples medical care. i have been an ER tech for the past three years and illegal immigrants and homeless people make up for probably 35% of the people that I take care of (understanding that I work at a major hospital in a metropolitan area. That skews things a bit). Someone is paying for that. You. Every time that you look at the deductions in your paycheck that is where they are paying for this care. In turn, it also drives up the costs for people who actually have insurance. We are required by law, and morals, to give care of those who come in and need it, but its not free. The medical system, as presently constituted, is broken and cannot sustain itself. Universal heath care, such as has been put in place in several countries in the world has many good aspects, but it is time to have some ingenuity and create a system that compensates for those who cannot afford healthcare, but at the same time compensates for docs who give extraordinarily good care for those who want/can afford it. 
Dec 6 2007 4:47PM
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TheQuailman
Posts: 7381 - Karma: 144
Universal healthcare is fucking stupid.  Why should I have to pay for some poor shit to get health care.  It's called motivation.  If you need money for a health related problem, you should have gotten a job and worked in highschool.  And if its really expensive then you should have bought fucking insurance.  If the government controls health care its just gunna be more fucking stupid, expensive, and bad.  And theres gunna be more corruption and malpractice lawsuits and bullshit like that
Dec 6 2007 4:50PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7598 - Karma: 20,034
we have waaaaay way fewer malpractice suits in Canada.
Dec 6 2007 4:52PM
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wrenegade
Posts: 6631 - Karma: 41
Canada is one of 3 countries in the world where it is ILLEGAL to purchase better care. Our fabulous company? Cuba and North Korea.

If I make enough money I should be able to spend it how I want. Everyone needs a place to live, but if I make enough money I'm not restricted how big of a house I buy, it should be the same with everything else, including health care.
Dec 6 2007 5:05PM
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RunDMc
Posts: 1298 - Karma: 60
Lets not say that Canada's health care is free, cause it really isn't, we still pay for it.
Dec 6 2007 5:12PM
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telestar6
Posts: 2102 - Karma: 44
If you'd read my first post you'd see that I'm not for socialized healthcare at all.  Other than the pharm. debate I agree with on all the other stuff you said.  The tax increase for universal healthcare would be astronomical.  I think a price ceiling on drugs would probably work well.  We did a lot of stuff pertaining to the pharaceutical companies in my accounting class last semester, oddly enough.  I learned a lot about just how profitable the big ones are and how much more Americans pay for the drugs than Canada, Asia, Western Europe and pretty much everywhere else in the world.  The American market is exponentially more profitable than any of the other major markets around the world.  That's why I say they need us more than we need them.  The American market is where they really make their money.  So yeah they could move but they won't get the returns they are currently making.  There is definitely a balance though.  I just think these companies are totally taken advantage of the American people and the government needs to step in and regulate the price a bit especially since something like 70% of pharmaceuticals are currently paid for the government with social programs like medicare. 
Dec 6 2007 5:16PM
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TheQuailman
Posts: 7381 - Karma: 144

Well, it'd be great if we could do that, but what happens when it cost ten million dollars to pay for a surgery that would save a 70 yr old, drug addicted homeless man's life?  Should the doctors do it for free?  But then how will they make money? And then why would someone become a doctor if they can't make any money?  So maybe the government should pay for it?  But then they will have to get that money from taxes.  So why should a hard-working person who actually worked during his life and has a job have to pay to save a lazy drug addict who didn't work a day in his life and now wants ten million dollars.

Look at India, in India, if you don't work hard in school and get a job, you die on the streets.  So people in India work their ass off and get a job and make money to live.  And now India has a huge educated workforce taking America's jobs.

Dec 6 2007 8:15PM
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jimmychung
Posts: 6857 - Karma: 25
i also like the idea of a hybrid medical system
Dec 6 2007 8:18PM
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timmi
Posts: 12874 - Karma: 3,460
word. i got hurt the other day. nothing serious and i was still out in like 4 hours
Dec 6 2007 8:22PM
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BusyJohnSohn
Posts: 3483 - Karma: 29
Our system right now is fucking gay.  Two tier is where its at baby, tahts what we should have, makes so much more sense.  My uncle died because of long ass waiting lines.
Dec 6 2007 8:33PM
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sdfjklioeur
Posts: 2082 - Karma: 114
im all for socialized healthcare
yay for socialism
Dec 6 2007 8:40PM
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caylorswift
Posts: 10695 - Karma: 312
give me france's healthcare or give me death!
Dec 6 2007 8:55PM
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telestar6
Posts: 2102 - Karma: 44
Word.
Dec 6 2007 8:57PM
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rhcp
Posts: 2598 - Karma: 18
I would like to point out that your argument is retarded because instead of using money as a way of determining who gets QUICK surgery here in the US you would prefer having a huge wait time in which no one gets preference like in Sweden where the wait for heart surgery can be up to 25 weeks (Tanner, Cannon).  Do you really think everyone is satisfied when they try to get health care through the government?  My friend Amey from England had to wait 6 DAYS before he saw a doctor when he had pneumonia.  At any given time there are 900,000 people waiting for admission to England's hospitals (Tanner, Cannon).  There is a one in five chance someone who was diagnosed with breast cancer will die in the US.  That number jumps to one in three when you go to germany and france, and it is one in two when you go to england or new zealand (Goodman).  1.5 million people cannot find a family physician in Ontario because doctors are spread so thin (Gratzer).  So don't even tell me the system is evil because if it wasn't for our system my grandfather probably would have died when he needed his emergency heart surgery, as I'm sure your grandfather would have too.


http://www.cato.org/pubs/catosletter/catosletterv3n1.pdf
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-tanner5apr05,0,2227144.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html
Dec 8 2007 12:10PM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
the breakthroughs that they achieve justify the means.
Dec 8 2007 12:15PM
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2bi40s
Posts: 275 - Karma: 15
you know that saying everyone associated with the pharmaceutical business is a crook is an ignorant comment that makes the KKK look understanding, right?

you can't just make the system disappear when there's millions of jobs and billions of dollars invested in it. 
 

Dec 8 2007 12:33PM
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ax_murderer
Posts: 3322 - Karma: 30
whoever the hell thinks this would be a good idea needs to get their fucking brain checked
Dec 8 2007 1:00PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Took the words out of my mouth. America's Healthcare system is honestly so fucked up as it is that I would be happy with any change.

And as for examples of 'bad healthcare' in countries with Universal HC, there are fucked up instances in every system. You have to look at the overall picture, not individual reports that probably have a lot more behind them than what we're being told. We dont see Canada's economy crashing... hell, they have a better system of prescription medication than we do. You dont see people in Paris marching because they have to wait in line for healthcare, and come on, this is the French. When I was over there for a week they had a transportation strike AND a separate airport workers strike. Universal Healthcare has elements that would be completely adaptable and better for this country.
Dec 8 2007 2:18PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Man, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Both my parents work for pharmaceuticals, as do 75% of their friends. I've also worked for pharmaceutical companies as an intern, and you are way off.

If you want to barely scratch the surface, I'll go into some ways in which you are incorrect. First of all, while some drugs are cheaper outside of the US, you are losing quite a few things. Firstly, quality. Alot of the drugs you take are produced here in the US, which is good, considering drugs not made up to the standards here can be incredibly bad for you. Outside of the US, drugs don't have to go through the FDA approval process that they do here. While the FDA is a fucked up organization, it does a pretty good job on making sure that drugs are safe before they get to market.

"There needs to be some kind of price regulation"... that won't ever happen. Do you have any idea how much it costs in R&D alone just to get ONE drug on the market? I'll tell you, at least 2 Billion dollars, if not more. That is alot of fucking money, not only does it take a huge amount of money, it can take upwards of 10 years just to get it on the market. What happens then? They have it on the market for 2-4 years, sometimes less, and their patent runs out. That means that they have to make 2 billion dollars, in sometimes 2 years, off of one drug, to break EVEN without even seeing a profit. After their patent runs out, generic companies start making the drugs, and they make it for cheap and sell it for cheap. The reason is because they don't have to spend anything on R&D. You won't ever see cheaper prescriptions, it just costs way too much money to make them.

The pharmaceutical industry is actually hurting really bad right now, despite what you may believe. R&D has become so expensive, that big companies aren't even trying anymore. The probability of a drug hitting market is 1/1000. Think about how small that is. That means that they are spending HUGE amounts of money on a 1/1000 chance. Seems pretty stupid to do, huh? Well, that's exactly why big companies aren't trying to produce new drugs anymore.

In fact, the business policy of many of them is to let the new, startup companies spend all the money on the Research, then once they have something promising, buy them out. With that business model, which many companies are using, they have about a 1/100 chance of getting a drug to market, and they only have to spend money on Development, much better.

You should actually be very afraid by what I'm telling you right now. These are all precursors for a failing pharmaceutical industry. Over the next few years, drugs are going to be getting even more expensive, if not too expensive to produce at all. It's costing such absurd amounts of money that the industry is slowly failing, there has to be some kind of reform. There is NOT too much money to be made at all, despite what you may believe.
Dec 8 2007 2:31PM
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2+2=5
Posts: 3676 - Karma: 18
i  live in canada, and its not that bad really. yeah ive waited an hour or two hours once to get cared, but at least its there and its free. your health and life shouldnt have a price tag on it. in my city we also have multiple clinics, and like 2 hospitals, so the waiting time isnt that bad as you guys think it is.
Dec 8 2007 4:20PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
While I agree with the health care in Canada on some points, others I have to disagree with.

Primarily in your statement, "life shouldn't have a price tag on it." I DO feel that most everyone deserves the opportunity of treatment, it depends on circumstances, as well as some other things.

First of all, how can you have legitimate Free healthcare? Where is the money going to come from? What are you going to pay the doctors with? Do you feel that they do not deserve their high salaries?

Personally, I feel doctors deserve all they earn, if not more. They have to devote 8+ years of their life to school, then another 4-6 years of residency before they start earning money. After that, they have incredibly high malpractice insurance. If you have free healthcare, how are you going to pay the doctors the money they deserve?

In addition, I also feel that there are some circumstances where people may not deserve to be treated. If a drug addict comes in with a failing heart, he has been in and out of rehab multiple times and won't completely go sober, do you treat him? Do you feel that he deserves a heart over someone else, who lives a healthy life? Now, valuing one persons life over another may seem wrong, but the drug addicts chance of living and using that heart for many years to come is significantly lower than the healthy person. This is an ethical question, but it would have an effect i think if everyone was entitled to whatever surgery/care they needed.
Dec 8 2007 5:15PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Doctors in countries with universal healthcare are paid as much as ours. Having a government system also reduced the malpractice suits that have pushed insurance through the roof. Switching our system to a more government regulated one would improve the efficency of the system by miles, and money saved there could easily be put towards doctors and revamping hospitals. Also, Healthcare could act as a business subsidy for American companies, which would also provide more money for doctors.

Again, Europes economy hasnt collapsed by adopting the system, and you can ask any healthcare professional to confirm this - the US system is just a example of innefficency and inflation. Doctors will still get paid, and going to med school will still be 'financially worth it', though I shudder to think that people who put their hands inside our citizens aorta's are primarily motivated by profit. Which brings up another point - this is saving lives. Competition and financially motivated decisions by hospitals is just worsening the system. Competition may be good for business, but when I'm in an ER, I sure dont want my hospital to be thinking about my margin of profit.
Dec 8 2007 7:38PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Many of the sites I've looked over depicting average salaries for doctors around the world actually make substantially less than those in the US, all of which are on universal health care. Personally, money IS indeed one of the deciding factors of becoming a Doctor. While i do really want to help people, I'm not going to devote 8 years of school and 6 years of residency to become a radiologist if I'm getting paid for shit. It's not worth the time. The average salary for radiologists in the US is roughly 322K per year. In Canada, it's about 200k, Britain is about 175k, which is substantially less. Salaries of medical professionals may be slightly inflated, but with the extensive schooling required as well as the residency, it is roughly what it should be at, you're paying them for their high level of expertise. 175k is pretty shitty to devote 14 years of your life to making nothing and paying off loans.

On the other hand of that, I have no idea how much they pay for malpractice insurance. It could be substantially less. In addition, I have no idea how much those doctors have to pay towards Medical School, or how many years they spend there and in their residency. Those could both be less, so over the course of time the salaries average out.

To the end you pointed out that you don't want your life viewed competitively, as just another business deal sitting on the table. I do agree with you on this, but personally I view it on a utilitarian ethical standpoint. Should anyone be entitled to a new heart if they have heart failure? Should it be 'first come, first serve'? No, I think not. If there is a high risk patient, who chances are won't live very long, or is a drug addict, or has some other form of ailment, should they get a heart over a young and healthy student who is 20 years old and has a prosperous life ahead of them? Sometimes you have to make a choice on certain matters. I don't know exactly how a universal health care system in the States would work, but it sounds like anyone is pretty much entitled to any treatment that they need, no matter the cost in monetary terms or in terms of other people who could benefit from it. I'm sure there is a lot of decisions that need to be made and a good system will be worked out eventually, but the complete overhaul that people seem to be pushing for these days is not right in my opinion.

Do I think healthcare needs reform? Absolutely. Do I think we need a universal health care system that puts everyone on an equal standing? Not necessarily, I feel that it depends on the circumstances.
Dec 8 2007 7:50PM
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