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March, 2024

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Canada at War.

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dead
Posts: 1635 - Karma: 11
For all of you who don't know, Canada's (the Conservative government's) armed forces have transfered from Kabul to Kandahar on what looks like a decade long WAR alongside the US against the Taliban forces there.

About a day or so after the Conservatives announced to Canada and the world that we were at WAR, Mr Bush comes along and says "So sorry about the shit with the softwood lumber dispute, we are actually great friends with you from the north."

Well thats nice, the consevatives kept their promise of solving the softwood lumber dispute by joining one of the most hated nations in the world in war in Afghanistan.

And, since 2001, we have lost 11 men (correct me if I'm wrong), 3 or whch were bombed by the US, in Afghanistan. Well, we just lost another, and injured 3 more, 2 or so days in to declaring war against "terrorism" with the US.

My question is, what the hell was Canada thinking when we put Conservatives into government? I'm not of voting age, nor do I pay taxes, but I could tell you that I would much prefer a sponsorship scandal with the Liberals than a war in Afghanistan with the US and the Conservatives. Maybe those commercials the Liberals played during the elections were right?

I guess I'm just a little weirded out, cause I'm not so sure now that we (Canada) are safe from terrorists.
Mar 29 2006 8:05AM
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PEJibber31
Posts: 358 - Karma: 11
Thank you for one of the first non-ignorant and pop-culture influenced posts I've read in awhile
Mar 31 2006 7:42PM
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rugbydave
Posts: 770 - Karma: 9
When was our last election, around Xmas time, right? When did Canadian troops start moving into Kandahar from Kabul? This isn't Harper cozying up to Bush, this has been in the planning stages for a long-ass time. Do you really think that NATO (this is a NATO op by the way) makes snap deployment calls like this in a few months? Canada had been scheduled to take over this sector for a while and lead the contingent of Dutch and Romanians in that region... So it's not some conspiracy with our American friends. And unlike those asshole hippy war protesters at my school seem to think, we haven't 'occupied' Afghanistan, we're there at the request of their govt and we're working to keep the average Afghan safe...
Mar 31 2006 7:56PM
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xcjumpx
Posts: 141 - Karma: 24
amen
Apr 1 2006 1:33AM
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sim
Posts: 1399 - Karma: -6
"For all of you who don't know, Canada's (the Conservative government's) armed forces have transfered from Kabul to Kandahar on what looks like a decade long WAR alongside the US against the Taliban forces there.

About a day or so after the Conservatives announced to Canada and the world that we were at WAR, Mr Bush comes along and says "So sorry about the shit with the softwood lumber dispute, we are actually great friends with you from the north."

Well thats nice, the consevatives kept their promise of solving the softwood lumber dispute by joining one of the most hated nations in the world in war in Afghanistan.

And, since 2001, we have lost 11 men (correct me if I'm wrong), 3 or whch were bombed by the US, in Afghanistan. Well, we just lost another, and injured 3 more, 2 or so days in to declaring war against "terrorism" with the US.

My question is, what the hell was Canada thinking when we put Conservatives into government? I'm not of voting age, nor do I pay taxes, but I could tell you that I would much prefer a sponsorship scandal with the Liberals than a war in Afghanistan with the US and the Conservatives. Maybe those commercials the Liberals played during the elections were right?

I guess I'm just a little weirded out, cause I'm not so sure now that we (Canada) are safe from terrorists."

Wouldnt let me qoute this...


Can't vote yet huh? Probably better if it would stay that way. Guess who put our troops over there to begin with? Harper is just staying commited. It's about time to show the world we are apart of it and are doing something, not just saying something.
Apr 1 2006 3:24AM
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Desjardins
Posts: 1772 - Karma: 11
I agree with you 100%, im in the same state as you, i dont pay taxes nor can i vote, but for chrissake, the liberals had a 12 million dollar surplus and they didnt condone the war in Iraq and against "terrorism".

Just wait, i give the conservatives untill the next voting, and they are going to be out of there and its going to be back to the liberals
Apr 1 2006 3:46AM
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Download-My-Apps
Posts: 5069 - Karma: 1,017
well I most certainly didnt vote conservative,but we'll see how thiings workout.

I am very anti-war myself, however I don't Canada willbe greatly effect by this war. However, as the world is changing for better or for worst Canada should be maybe distancing itself from the states.
Apr 1 2006 4:08AM
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sim
Posts: 1399 - Karma: -6
So if you are anti-war, one can only assume that you are not one for having a big army, or an army at all. Fair enough. That being said, you further went on to say we should be further distancing ourselves from the US. Now what do you think we would have to do if we did that... I consider being able to protect ourselves one of the staples of the definition of soveriegnty.

Like the other really intelligent thread about the US coming to an end or whatever- what do you think people would think of a country that has tonnes of fresh water, more oil (potentially) than Saudi Arabia (look it up) in one little area, abundent land and lumber and still tonnes of room... Might be desired no? Hey, maybe it will even be our neighbours to the south that first do some accuiring. However, right now we us them as our defense.

So what you essentially want, isnt possible.
Apr 1 2006 11:24AM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13038 - Karma: 18,202
Ok,you must understand a principle,an army is for national defence, not offence.
I am also very against the war, but it doesn't mean that I don't want an army.I am glad that Canada has a strong army and I hope it keeps building. But Canadians are all about peaceful resolutions. We do not declare war to become like another nation (except Harper, he's Bush's lap puppy). That is why we haven't got attacked by terrorrists. He did not provoke them, and we shall never provoke them. Just remember that they are ticking timebombs with rage filled in their minds. And an all-out offencive is not self defence. What Bush and other Christians are doing is called a crusade,not liberalization.
Apr 1 2006 12:16PM
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n-o
Posts: 3457 - Karma: 41
very intelligent thread.
sadly i know nothing about the canadian government, even sadder... i am a canadian
Apr 1 2006 1:05PM
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mattster
Posts: 4120 - Karma: 41
i hate how the canadian government has pretty much become a 2 party system...
Apr 1 2006 1:11PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13038 - Karma: 18,202
I couldn't agree more
Apr 1 2006 1:49PM
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PEJibber31
Posts: 358 - Karma: 11
Two things. First, this isnt necessarily my opinion, but many people believe the best defense is to go out and make sure there arent any opponenets. Lets face it, long before we "provoked" the middle east they were attacking americans. Pllllease know what you're talking about.

Secondly, no offense, but Canada hasnt been attacked (and probably wont be attacked) because you aren't a superpower economically or militarily and it wouldnt send any kind of message if you were attacked.
Apr 1 2006 4:06PM
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Download-My-Apps
Posts: 5069 - Karma: 1,017
No, I think we should have an army. For defence, issues that are more of a concern for Canada, peace keeping not what will please our neighboors to the south.

I dont think we should abandon the US completely, I just think there are other trading parteners we could look into, so we are not dependent on them, IM not sure onthe number but isnt it over 80% of our exports go to the states? As shown in the softwood lumber deal we dont always agree on whats a fair price, and we lost a consideralbe amount of money. Im sure there would have been another country like China quite willing to pay our price.

Also with our deals Canada is really getting the shitty end of the stick. The majority of our products, movies and employers are American. I strongly urge that we support our Canadian products, even though im just as bad as anyone else.

I'm not a cranola munching hippy either, but I feel with the exception of WWII, wars have not been worth it. I have nothing but respect for the brave soliders that fought for their countries, they were just doing what they were asked. But our nations often fight for the wrong reasons.

And I realise that what I want probably wont happen. Or atleast for many many years.And the way that we currently live is great compared to other nations. But i think the world is changing, and as discused in the other topic the US is slowly becoming less and less the supreme world power. So if were gunna cozy up in beds to be safe in the next years maybe we should look for a new bed.
Apr 1 2006 4:59PM
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JamesB
Posts: 1461 - Karma: 11
do you even know how little of Canadian soldiers there are in Afghanistan.. 2300,
1 in Iraq, 2,757. more kids in my school. probably more christian peace keepers there. we've been on the hitlist before harper with your liberals, lets remeber the libs sent in men. ooh thats right. give your head a fucking shake son.
Apr 3 2006 1:23PM
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Lé.Skiing
Posts: 10035 - Karma: 8,122
this is exactly why i voted for NDP, but seeing as they never got in, my vote felt wasted, i was just trying to get the conservatives out ther, becasue i knew that all this shit about war was gona happen, like if you vote someone in thats "Pro american" not that theres really anything wrong with america, its just the governmet the's helping. now not only is there bush, not there's harper following the misguided "C" student we all know as bush. not that being a C student is bad, i just dont think that if sone one had C grade's they shouldent be running a country.
Apr 3 2006 1:45PM
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JamesB
Posts: 1461 - Karma: 11
im sure you would do a much better job my son^
Apr 3 2006 2:14PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
ALl your posts so far have been pretty foolish.

"thats not what im reading in the paper here" ?

c'mon, youre joe blow, how should you get to know more than a 2 star general.

but the fact that a 2 star general is running his mouth is foolish too.

CANADA IS NOT FIGHTING ALONGSIDE THE US.

We have come into afghanistan as the US withdraws, REPLACING them.

CAnada and the US cant be seen fighting the same war.

Harper is a tool

he wears mad amounts of make up

He loves the US, and wants to snuggle up to bush
Apr 3 2006 3:12PM
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sim
Posts: 1399 - Karma: -6
You know what they say. "C students end up becoming the bosses of A and B students."
Apr 3 2006 3:15PM
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midwestskier69
Posts: 1145 - Karma: 11
I'm over politics. I used to care, I still pay attention. But in the end, they're all a fucking sham. Right wing, left wing.. everyone's a buncha liars in it for themselves. If we really wanted a Democracy we wouldn't be placing the upper class into run our country year after year. Obviously Democracy fails in time of war, when people are lied to in order to support something that they really are clueless about. Let's face it, is war good? NO! Is it necessary? On occasion. Is this war necessary or good? That's yours to decide, but personally I still say "Fuck Bush" proudly and disagree with everything going on right now.

Take your side on it. Disagree with me. Agree with me. Not like I'm making a difference or you're making a difference, either. Bitching, arguing, anything.. isn't going to change the fact that we're in a war we can't change. That's all it comes down to.
Apr 3 2006 3:34PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
^ who says that?

Also, turbinhunter :

YOu say the US has taken no oil from Iraq. *I begin to scoff, but hold off*

Then you say the oil contracts have been sold to private oil companies, convienently american, to help them rebuild their oil production facilities. Awwwwww, how sweet!!

Did you know that 80-90% of those "private" contracts go to companies owned by people high up in the american government?

Halliburton got most of the contracts, Do you know who owns halliburton?

Dick Cheny! yay/!!!

So you really cant defend against the fact that America Went To Iraq For Their Oil.

They did.

Plain as fucking day.
Apr 3 2006 3:41PM
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Timmy_G
Posts: 3735 - Karma: 15
George Bush sucks. We'eve been at war for a long time because of his decisions. That sucks people actually follow him and have faith in his actions.
Apr 3 2006 3:46PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13038 - Karma: 18,202
Ok, let me destroy (get it?)your arguements one by one.

You say that the best way is to make sure that you have no opponants. Think of this analogy: I beat the shit out of you because I want your lunch money. You are terribly pissed off and you pull dirty tricks for revenge. This is exacly what is happening today. The US goes and tries to gain possesion of the middle east most prized posession,oil. Like the Arabics dont want to give it up, the US attacks. Now the people in the middle east are pissed, they fight back by calling it the Gijhad (sp?)

You also claim that the US has been terroisted before the provokation. Its funny that the US hasn't been attacked during the civil war nor the first world way. The attacks started after the second world war and the cold war. The US lied to Bin Laden and now he is pissed. So, yeah, the american government provoked the Muslims.

Now you tell me that Canada isn't going to be attacked becasue we aren't rich nor a superpower? Do you hate Bill Gates? Hey, he's as rich as the US government (without the debt).Do you hate China? They have the world's most populated army, why aren't they getting bombed? Do you hate the governemnent? yes? Ill tell you why, they take your money and spend it without your consent. That is power that you have no control over.

The reason why the US is hated around the world is not because of the money ,nor the military; its the involvement and the control the US try to have over the world.

And you have the guts to tell me that I don't know shit, its funny that I countered every arguement that you gave.
Apr 3 2006 3:46PM
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sim
Posts: 1399 - Karma: -6
Duhhh, THEY.
Apr 3 2006 5:19PM
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traer
Posts: 690 - Karma: 12
haha...what a dumbass......I don't even want to start in on anything you said its so full of bull shit that it wouldn't be worth my effort.
Apr 3 2006 8:09PM
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traer
Posts: 690 - Karma: 12
Are you kidding me?
Apr 3 2006 8:12PM
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traer
Posts: 690 - Karma: 12
Where are you getting this C grade stuff????? Honestly, this is so stupid you should really re-read what you just wrote.

I don't think your talking about any grade received in school because that would be interesting.

I don't think it has anything to do with polls you have seen on the news because that would be way too stupid of a mistake to make.

Nor do I think it is related to voting results...help me out here.

Just wondering if you can clarify on that "C" grade for me, maybe I'm overlooking something??
Apr 3 2006 8:20PM
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friedcheese
Posts: 1245 - Karma: 23
dont try to understand that kid cause anyone who voted NDP is a fucking idiot. And anyone who voted for NDP and expected them to form the governmnent is an even bigger fucking idiot.
Apr 3 2006 8:43PM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
PRO-HO!!! I KNOW TJ SCHILLER!!! SO THERE!
Apr 3 2006 8:52PM
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PEJibber31
Posts: 358 - Karma: 11
Wow. You just countered me with an extreme amount of shit. None of this makes any coherent argument, nor does it state any fact. Let me try and go through this slowly so you may understand.

Pre-emption- This is America's defense policy. It states that (using the Monroe Doctrine as a guideline) the US will make every effort to create peace in the United States by taking out any proven threat before it has the opportunity to attack (hence the name pre-emption). We needed to be approved by the UN (yes Canada approved too, before this conservative party took over) and we did. The US, as of today, has taken NO OIL FROM IRAQ. Cut this fucking argument. Secondly, you are completely wrong. The middle east DOES wasnt to give up it's oil because the oil is it's only means of International Trade. AKA shut the fuck up. PS its Jihad (you apparently dont watch the news at all so mommy and daddy must be the ones giving you info.)

This second paragraph is embarassing. I WONDER WHY WE WERENT ATTACKED DURING THE CIVIL WAR?!?! I know why, because the Arabs didnt want to swim across the fucking atlantic to attack us. The first World War? Once again, nothing to do with terrorism whatsoever. Terrorism on American Soil started BEFORE the second world war started (for the US, not for Europe) with Pearl Harbor. If you want to talk about real terrorism involving the middle east and the US, it started with the hostage situation in Iran in the 80s. Dont know what that is? Im not surprised. Let me kill two birds with one stone here. Iraq and Iran both hate us because of the Iran Contra affair. Look it up you history major you. And we supported Osama throughout the Afghan/Russian war. So why does he hate us? Because we are infidels. We are a christian nation that functions off of capitalism. That is why he hates us. Osama comes from one of the richest families in the world, he doesnt give two shits about oil. He hates us because he support Israel (the main reason most middle eastern countries hate us) and because we are infidels.

Not to burst your bubble, but Canada is not going to get attacked. Why the hell would anyone attack Canada. There is no symbol or structure worth destroying, and if any terrorist is going to go through all that trouble to get across seas, they're coming straight for us. Where the hell did all this "hate this and that" shit come from? You are ruining your argument by being completely irrelevent. As a matter of fact, I do hate Bill Gates. XP is a shitty and faulty program and he has created a monopoly that nobody can compete with. China? Dude, one of the 4 heads of the UN? Why the fuck would we attack them? Please dont waste any more of my time.
Apr 3 2006 10:40PM
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PEJibber31
Posts: 358 - Karma: 11
To add one more thing. If Canada does get attacked in the next 10 years, it will be at the olympics, which has the potential of being attacked no matter where it is, so dont bring that up either.
Apr 3 2006 10:55PM
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JamesB
Posts: 1461 - Karma: 11
ok kids lets think for a second, soo, bush is a c grade student atleast he fuckin graduated lests look at some of the driving forces of Canada... Tommy Douglas the man dropped out at 14, the man did a fine fucking job eh. so please you cunt scab spare me this low average shit.
Apr 4 2006 9:38AM
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wdbo.
Posts: 4935 - Karma: 173
vietnam wasnt even a war, because it was never declared that wasnt relevant but still a good tidbit
we just need to except that the middle east is fucked up and will always be fucked up, and theres nothing we can do it about
Apr 4 2006 9:50AM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/01/26/wilkins-harper060126.html


yea because harper is bushes lapdog. he basically told the ambassador of the usa to canada to fuck off, and that i run this shit.


all you leftists keep talking, bunch of chicken heads.
Apr 4 2006 1:39PM
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*DrewT*
Posts: 7768 - Karma: 480
The reason the conservatives went into power is because nobody was gonna vote liberal after so much they've done and NDP and Green Party just aren't strong enough yet. Next election liberals are probably going back in though. We need to get out of there though war is so unneeded
Apr 4 2006 2:25PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13038 - Karma: 18,202
Know what dude, keep your consevative crap with people who agree with you.I can't agree with you. Believe what you want buddy.
The bottom line is this argument will not change a thing.Im not giving up, im just sick of all this.I can't wait for the day were our society crumbles.

And by the way, you lose all your credibility when you offend people and repeat the word "shit" all of the time in your so called arguements. Acting like you know everything usualy shows ignorence. Like a famous saying, the one who knows most, is the person who knows least.
Apr 4 2006 3:16PM
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volkl
Posts: 191 - Karma: 10
don't go lumping Bush and 'other Christians' together, that is probably the stupidest comment i have read on this thread. Bush's idea of christianity is beyond belief for most christians. Bush is an uber conservative "christian" which is pretty much nothing like most christians we know.
Apr 4 2006 3:18PM
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volkl
Posts: 191 - Karma: 10
To all the idiots who think the Halliburton thing was not a big deal, you need to check your sources. I work for one of the largest oil and gas companies in N. America, and things sound a lot different first hand. Dick Cheney (sp?) was the CEO of Halliburton, as well as the vice pres. of US. When the US went into Irag and destroyed all of the pipelines in an effort "to restore peace/kill terroists" who got the contract to fix them? Right away Halliburton got the contract to fix ALL of them, not just some, which is rare. In addition, there wasn't the usualy process of companies bidding for the job, the inside company got the job right away. IF this wasn't a big deal, then why did Dick Cheney step down from CEO as soon as this became public? The oil was not the "reason" to invade Iraqi, but an alternative motive...or a rather nice side effect, for sure.

The US are are over $8 trillion dollars in debt...wtf? how can they even function, that is bullshit. They senate approved a raise of the dept ceiling to $8.9 trillion, which is unreal. The messed up thing is that this debt is all foreign. The US cannot operate an economy as well as they do if they are not at war. If they were to just live peacefully, how could they operate with a $9 trillion debt...they need the war to fuel the investors and loaners and create an economy that works in the US.
Apr 4 2006 3:27PM
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katikaze
Posts: 301 - Karma: 10
i think part of the reason Canada's "new role" in afghanistan is such a big deal here is because its the first time in YEARS that Canada has actually participated in a war in the capacity of actual combat operations. For the most part, we've been involved with building infrastructure and facilitating humanitarian aid, and for the Canadian people its kind of a difficult thing to wrap our heads around the fact that our soldiers are actually over there FIGHTING A WAR. after Harper's visit to Afghanistan, the headlines in the papers made reference to the Afghani Prime Minister thanking Harper "for the lives of our sons." I'm not saying anyone went into this war expecting zero casualties, but its just recently that the media has really been portraying Canada's role as one of an actual military presence. It will be interesting to see how Harper's approval ratings adjust as this thing goes on...
Apr 4 2006 3:45PM
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albatross.
Posts: 4380 - Karma: 772
Terrorists werent claiming love for canada because we are neutral, its because they use canada as refuge. This wont change anything.
Apr 4 2006 3:57PM
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Brettm
Posts: 13 - Karma: 10
This is and idotic post, first of all not one of you are backing up your opinions. Second of all your facts are completly wrong. Do some research before you start arguing.

For Example about the "Declaring Wars" and "Vietnam". Congrees has to Authorize force through the War Powers Resolution if they dont Declare War.

Please if you post anytthing back it up with cited facts.
Apr 4 2006 4:11PM
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Badfish2
Posts: 3453 - Karma: 21
even Tim Horton's isn't safe it seems! ;)

With a minority government and after recieving only 30% of the national vote - and being shut out of seats in the 3 largest cities in the country, they hardly have a mandate to do whatever they want. I will be very interested in what sort of attitude that the conservatives take knowing that Canadians don't want another election any time soon. It seems as though they've already drawn their line in the sand though having vastly different approaches to a couple issues than the other parties(ie: income tax cuts v. gst cut, national childcare program, ...)
Will the GG have to appoint the opposition Liberals to govern if the parties can't agree and things gets too far out of control??
they've already made an environmental statement by cutting funding to the 1-tonne challenge without reason and without unveiling their own plan.. broke their own accountability rules by giving a cabinet post to someone that wasn't even elected and luring another with a cabinet position 2 weeks after he was elected as a Liberal. We were also the first country to put sanctions against Hamas - foreign relations indeed..

All this without sitting once in the house.
Apr 4 2006 4:30PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
Good post.

Did you read mine about 10-15 posts up? basically saying the same thing.

fuck DICK

DONT KILL FOR DICK

i have that bumper sticker.
Apr 4 2006 5:06PM
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+[wall.e]+
Posts: 1928 - Karma: 18
Agreed, I mean, I am all for loving my country and the place I am from. And I appreciate the sacrifice generations of our men and women have made, and paid for with their lives. I agree that the Bush administration was after oil. We should be out of Iraq by now. There are now WMD, and Saddam has been toppled. The only thing we should be doing is keeping an elite team of highly trained men to be looking for Osama Bin Laden.

This administration is one of the most classest governments I think our country has ever had. I am all for patriotism but this administration has seriously fucked over America. In the eyes of the world, we are the biggest fuck up and no one wants to be our ally. If we aren't careful in rebuilding, we will stand alone in the world. Our government is run by people whose hands are in oil. Thats why we are still there.

Sorry we had to drag you Canadians into this, but I wish sometimes the world would sympathize with us Americans who think the same things as you guys.
Apr 4 2006 5:27PM
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JamesB
Posts: 1461 - Karma: 11
you have to be fucking kidding me.^ agreeing with that shit. Lets think about that son We have a bad leader funding terrorists who are killing innocent people without a fucking cause. So yea you fucking libs keep believing bush is a mess please do so. Sure it may have been a bit of a mess the way they did it but fuck. Is all you people look at it the bad way. is the glass half full son. From going in there they have made the best of such a mess. So please keep bitching please we beg of you. Until you have a fucking family member in the war, or are involved with politics show some fucking respect to something you have no idea about. With fathers and uncles, please they are fucking soldiers. When you are a soldier you are a killer you know what your getting into. But im sure your right bush has taken all the oil from iraq being the huge nazi/hitler 2 he is and soon he is going to set up concentration camps and we are going to start burning muslims with all the oil he has stolen and take over the world and... yea shut the fuck up
Apr 4 2006 6:55PM
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brit.
Posts: 256 - Karma: 10
i'd really enjoy finding every canadian who voted conservative and kick them in the shins.
Apr 4 2006 7:00PM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
you can start with me.

ill return the favour with a shot to the baby maker.
Apr 4 2006 7:04PM
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PEJibber31
Posts: 358 - Karma: 11
My biggest pet pieve is when somebody tells me I dont know what I'm talking about when I know theyre wrong. I knew you were wrong and you caught me on the wrong night. I dont think I know everything, but like I said before, atleast know something before you voice a incriminating opinion towards someone else.
Apr 4 2006 7:11PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
YOu suck!

no, You suck!!!

YOu suck more!!!!!

Im right!!!!!

no, Im right!!!!

no one knows shit!!!!

you dont know shit!!!!!

yes I know shit!!!!

this shit is all whack!!!

fuck you!!!!

no, fuck you!!!!!





Did i sum up this thread pretty well?
Apr 4 2006 9:27PM
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PEJibber31
Posts: 358 - Karma: 11
Anybody know about the shit going on in Iran right now? They're the real problem. We should have bypassed Iraq from the start and had our eyes keyed in on Iran, they're going to cause some major problems i guarentee it.
Apr 4 2006 11:19PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
^ and they're rich and educated.
Apr 5 2006 12:57AM
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