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Subject: Why is jiberish so expensive?/I wish it was cheaper
homewrecker13
Karma : 84
19 Posts
Newb
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Nov 3 2009
3:01:36
alright so I was on the Level1 website and saw the new jiberish gear dropped. I was all pumped because
it looks sick but then I looked and its too expensive for me. Alright, I could buy 1 jiberish hoody ($100+) or two hoodies, two tall tees and two bandanas from walmart for the same price or cheaper. All of these could do the same job and potentially look just as sweet minus the celebrity/exclusivity factor. Now I give you the jiberish hoody was worn by twall and henrik harlaut among others but I mean I bought a sick jacket on steepandcheap (oakley extraction $100 down from $300) for the same price. I wish Jiberish would just be less expensive, maybe just take it down a notch or two to maybe $50 or $60 for hoodies like most companies. So I pose the question, is it really worth it spend around $100 on a non-technical piece of outerwear that you can really only wear as an outer layer on sunny warm days while skiing?
I just don't think their designs are worth double what other companies and I wish they would lower their prices.

steezebananna
Karma : 415
87 Posts
Wannabe
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Nov 3 2009
3:04:30
this has already been talked about and proven why IT IS WORTH IT. limited quantity , good materials, small core company. the list goes on and on about what goes into this stuff to make it worth what it is. buy it, support the companies that support skiing
montageskier
Karma : 7180
4235 Posts
No Life
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Nov 3 2009
3:05:55
Its a boutique brand. Its like saying your walking through the village in Manhattan and you see a t shirt for $170. But you could also get a t shirt at wal mart for $7. There is a huge difference from shopping in the village to wal mart.
www.Proctorjones.com Is where its at.
R.Fahey
Karma : 111854
7655 Posts
Crazy Fool
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Nov 3 2009
3:07:19
their attention to detail is way better than any other company I've seen.  And, the styles are incredible as well.  I'm sure cost on Jiberish stuff is about half of the price you pay.... they are made in more limited numbers than most other brands.  If they want to succeed as a company they have to keep the prices high.  Unless they start making more price point items... but that's not cool.

and I don't know if any of that's true... just my speculation. 
_______________________________________________

4bi9.

Atypical
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Insane
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Nov 3 2009
3:18:36
This has been beaten to death in at least three different threads today.
416
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Crazy Fool
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Nov 3 2009
3:27:05
it's limited quantity, cut and sewn, and in very high demand. They sold out of almost every hoodie in the larger sizes in a few months last year.

It's a quality product.
---------------------------- "i walk past that park where the last clip of the urban seg was filmed almost everyday and i just look at the park like "wow, will wesson raped you" " -EastCoastOvaDose
MalcolmUltimate Bling!
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Crazy Fool
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Nov 3 2009
3:33:14
Quoting steezebananna from Nov 3 2009 3:04:30:
this has already been talked about and proven why IT IS WORTH IT. limited quantity , good materials, small core company. the list goes on and on about what goes into this stuff to make it worth what it is. buy it, support the companies that support skiing
just because they make less of them doesnt make it worth the money. even their attention to detail or whatever wont make me pay more than i have to for clothes. and im willing to bet that 90% of the people who buy their stuff are victims of very good advertising
Weezyblog shut the fuck up
R.I.P. Shane McConkey
http://malcolmns.webs.com/Q1.htm

obviously, if you get the spk pro, you will acheive pro like status, but if you get the spk kaos, you will look like a kaotic newb full of kaos. - landonn

Wibby
Karma : 427
166 Posts
Pro
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Nov 3 2009
3:36:41
nice stuff costs more...
THUGwife
Karma : 1290
896 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
3:37:28
you pay the money for the brand. thats all it is. if you're into it youll spend the money or youll save for it. part of the price is the exclusivity
RSP
Karma : 5456
247 Posts
Loner
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Nov 3 2009
3:38:22
Quoting MalcolmUltimate Bling! from Nov 3 2009 3:33:14:
just because they make less of them doesnt make it worth the money. even their attention to detail or whatever wont make me pay more than i have to for clothes. and im willing to bet that 90% of the people who buy their stuff are victims of very good advertising
I've never seen any advertising but I buy some because it it good quality and feels good on you


TWoods
Karma : 47778
5564 Posts
No Life
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Nov 3 2009
3:40:52
Let me go through it for you.
Disclaimer - I have knowledge about clothing manufacturing, but I don't work for jiberish.


1. the material itself
This isn't regular shitty ringspun cotton. It's thicker, better made, more quality materials. To get all these different materials in limited quantity, you have to go through suppliers that cost more (because of the quality) and pay top dollar. Producing a limited run like jiberish does actually costs more because it's way cheaper and more economical to order in massive quantities, if you can move that much product. Plus, some of their material , such as the patterned sweatshirts, are specially produced for them.

2. Cut and sew -
To make product that isn't screenprinted american apparel blanks, you have to go through a cut and sew company. To do this, you have to work with them. Consultation fees are charged, anywheres from 30-60 dollars an hour, then once you have figured out what you want, they charge you up to 100 an hour to make patterns. If the patterns aren't what you want, you have to spend more money for them to fix them. THEN, you have to get all your material delivered to them, and pay them to make blanks.

3. Printing
Jiberish uses several methods to get their designs laid down some of which happens to the material before the cut and sew people get it, another expensive step. Screen printing isn't cheap on it's own, and they aren't using any shitty printers. If you want your print to last, you have to use good inks, good screens, and people that know what they are doing - which isn't cheap. You're looking at 2-5 dollars a shirt, which after cut and sew and everything else, adds up.

So, in short, although it seems like they are making a ton of money on 34 dollar shirts, compared to your whatever brand skateboard shirt from CSS you can get for 15-20, the profit margin isn't that high when you get into such a quality product.
on3p
4bi9

R.Dolla
Karma : 3020
800 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
4:01:36
Quoting montageskier from Nov 3 2009 3:05:55:
Its a boutique brand. Its like saying your walking through the village in Manhattan and you see a t shirt for $170. But you could also get a t shirt at wal mart for $7. There is a huge difference from shopping in the village to wal mart.
this right here is the answer.
MalcolmUltimate Bling!
Karma : 54524
9992 Posts
Crazy Fool
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Nov 3 2009
4:03:32
Quoting RSP from Nov 3 2009 3:38:22:
I've never seen any advertising but I buy some because it it good quality and feels good on you
youre telling me youve never seen the logo in an edit?
Weezyblog shut the fuck up
R.I.P. Shane McConkey
http://malcolmns.webs.com/Q1.htm

obviously, if you get the spk pro, you will acheive pro like status, but if you get the spk kaos, you will look like a kaotic newb full of kaos. - landonn

awsomebob69
Karma : 666
105 Posts
Pro
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Nov 3 2009
4:07:57
i agree completely. and dont get me wrong jiberish is sickkkkter. sick designs and yeah being a small core company alone makes them pro. but really, i have a red mfg and the quality isnt anything to bust a load in your pants about. And actually the zipper does fuck up a lot and the cuffs and inside ball up a ton. The hoddie is still sick tho. SO im saying that if they lowered prices, they would probably make more money because people would buy their stuff more than regular looking shit at the same price. =] think about it cunts
LET THE NS HATE BEGIN
Lord.Quasimoto
Karma : 80
122 Posts
Pro
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Nov 3 2009
4:14:37
If you don't want to pay that much for your clothes then don't, others will, thats the buety of living in a FREE society. What the fuck are you kids bitching about?
*********
ninth
9
JoshB
Karma : 7163
626 Posts
Ridiculous
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Nov 3 2009
4:15:39
Quoting montageskier from Nov 3 2009 3:05:55:
Its a boutique brand. Its like saying your walking through the village in Manhattan and you see a t shirt for $170. But you could also get a t shirt at wal mart for $7. There is a huge difference from shopping in the village to wal mart.
peopleofwalmart.org/

do it
BK
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1863 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
4:23:34
THere have been some cool construction advancements this year. We will never stop trying to make the stuff better each year!
Flashkick101$
Karma : 12934
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Insane
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Nov 3 2009
5:24:05
some of its actually cheaper this year than it was last year.
~WAKIN' UP THE NEIGHBORHOOD TONIGHT!~

~I could carve off a jump so hard I'd come in forward and take off of it switch~

SKI SUNDOWN!

thegoat
Karma : 1857
270 Posts
Loner
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Nov 3 2009
5:29:23
HA!

the only reason it costs as much as it does is because people are willing to pay that much for it.

If people were not willing to pay that much (however much it is), you bet your ass it would get cheaper.
Wil Vicik - RIP
Atypical
Karma : 3291
1228 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
5:30:52
Quoting thegoat from Nov 3 2009 5:29:23:
HA! the only reason it costs as much as it does is because people are willing to pay that much for it. If people were not willing to pay that much (however much it is), you bet your ass it would get cheaper.
this is false.
Purple
Karma : 14689
3564 Posts
Addict
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Nov 3 2009
5:33:12
The hoodies and crews arent THAT bad... it's the flannel shirts and that whole line that seems outrageously expensive. Nice stuff however.
Rep the 416!

thegoat
Karma : 1857
270 Posts
Loner
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Nov 3 2009
5:36:32
Quoting Atypical from Nov 3 2009 5:30:52:
this is false.
Really?

you think if no one was willing to pay as much as they are currently charging for it they would just keep on charging the same amount?
Wil Vicik - RIP
bdowning
Karma : 1087
493 Posts
Ridiculous
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Nov 3 2009
5:41:33
someone should invent a fabric company thats just as sweet and cheaper!!!!    win.
Atypical
Karma : 3291
1228 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
6:10:37
Quoting thegoat from Nov 3 2009 5:36:32:
Really? you think if no one was willing to pay as much as they are currently charging for it they would just keep on charging the same amount?
The thing is, it's not going to happen. There's no point in arguing it.

Nobody is going to boycott jiberish to lower the prices.
thegoat
Karma : 1857
270 Posts
Loner
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Nov 3 2009
6:14:03
Quoting Atypical from Nov 3 2009 6:10:37:
The thing is, it's not going to happen. There's no point in arguing it.

Nobody is going to boycott jiberish to lower the prices.
I did not say they were.

I just said that the reason it costs what it does (which is ridiculous in my opinion) is because that is what people are willing to pay.

Like wise if 80% of those already buying it were willing to pay another $30 a piece, my guess is the price would go up another $30 a piece.
Wil Vicik - RIP
Atypical
Karma : 3291
1228 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
6:15:33
Quoting thegoat from Nov 3 2009 6:14:03:
I did not say they were. I just said that the reason it costs what it does (which is ridiculous in my opinion) is because that is what people are willing to pay. Like wise if 80% of those already buying it were willing to pay another $30 a piece, my guess is the price would go up another $30 a piece.
Well no shit. If people were willing to pay 6 dollars for a gallon of gas, wouldn't it go up?

You make silly points.
NEskia
Karma : 576
35 Posts
Lame
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Nov 3 2009
6:15:48
I understand the quality thing, but I cant even afford to buy clothes to support the industry.....
A@r0n$
Karma : 9168
5245 Posts
No Life
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Nov 3 2009
6:15:51

i like jiberish but cant afford any of it. the most i would spend on any of it is $40

but it is priced right for the quality and materials used to make em'

"jesus, this thread is 80% sarcasm and 20% downs syndrome"-Ender$

its so steezin, its almost freezin!


"so........ i didnt really have any screws, or any matching bindings left, so i guess nails should work. shouldnt they? i see no problem having nails as long as they dont tear out while im hitting massive booters and drops and grind bars."-Brentizzle

Atypical
Karma : 3291
1228 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
6:17:26
Quoting A@r0n$ from Nov 3 2009 6:15:51:
i like jiberish but cant afford any of it. the most i would spend on any of it is $40
$40 really? You can't get any ski related hoodie for that unless it's homemade.
A@r0n$
Karma : 9168
5245 Posts
No Life
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Nov 3 2009
6:29:56
Quoting Atypical from Nov 3 2009 6:17:26:
$40 really? You can't get any ski related hoodie for that unless it's homemade.

yea you can. i get lrg shit for like 20-35 and its sick.

 i wish i could afford more than that, but hey we all cant have unlimited $

"jesus, this thread is 80% sarcasm and 20% downs syndrome"-Ender$

its so steezin, its almost freezin!


"so........ i didnt really have any screws, or any matching bindings left, so i guess nails should work. shouldnt they? i see no problem having nails as long as they dont tear out while im hitting massive booters and drops and grind bars."-Brentizzle

Atypical
Karma : 3291
1228 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
6:32:49
Quoting A@r0n$ from Nov 3 2009 6:29:56:
yea you can. i get lrg shit for like 20-35 and its sick.
 i wish i could afford more than that, but hey we all cant have unlimited $
cool
207$
Karma : 15886
1254 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
6:39:51
Quoting A@r0n$ from Nov 3 2009 6:29:56:
yea you can. i get lrg shit for like 20-35 and its sick.
 i wish i could afford more than that, but hey we all cant have unlimited $
word, I bought an LRG Grass Roots crew on sale for $30 and MSRP at $56 I like it way more than MOST 09/10 Jiberish Hoodies, and Crews. ITS MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION. I think the Banger is a sick crew and Jungle Cat is sick but other than that I reall ain't feeling any of the just Jiberish stuff. Jiberish/Level 1 is sick. But I cannot see myself paying anywhere from $76-$110 for a crew or a hoodie. I agree its fair priced its just i'm tight for money. I support Jiberish and can see myself buying a Banger Crew or Jungle Cat hoodie from B/S/T because frankly the price is much lower.
Who gives a flying fuck numbnuts? It's fucking Halloween, who cares. People either get drunk, or go into a sugar induced coma. Basically, everyone passes the fuck out.

-Mr. Panda
SickStickz
Karma : 2007
190 Posts
Pro
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Nov 3 2009
6:44:19
Quoting TWoods from Nov 3 2009 3:40:52:
Let me go through it for you.Disclaimer - I have knowledge about clothing manufacturing, but I don't work for jiberish. 1. the material itself This isn't regular shitty ringspun cotton. It's thicker, better made, more quality materials. To get all these different materials in limited quantity, you have to go through suppliers that cost more (because of the quality) and pay top dollar. Producing a limited run like jiberish does actually costs more because it's way cheaper and more economical to order in massive quantities, if you can move that much product. Plus, some of their material , such as the patterned sweatshirts, are specially produced for them.2. Cut and sew - To make product that isn't screenprinted american apparel blanks, you have to go through a cut and sew company. To do this, you have to work with them. Consultation fees are charged, anywheres from 30-60 dollars an hour, then once you have figured out what you want, they charge you up to 100 an hour to make patterns. If the patterns aren't what you want, you have to spend more money for them to fix them. THEN, you have to get all your material delivered to them, and pay them to make blanks.3. PrintingJiberish uses several methods to get their designs laid down some of which happens to the material before the cut and sew people get it, another expensive step. Screen printing isn't cheap on it's own, and they aren't using any shitty printers. If you want your print to last, you have to use good inks, good screens, and people that know what they are doing - which isn't cheap. You're looking at 2-5 dollars a shirt, which after cut and sew and everything else, adds up. So, in short, although it seems like they are making a ton of money on 34 dollar shirts, compared to your whatever brand skateboard shirt from CSS you can get for 15-20, the profit margin isn't that high when you get into such a quality product.

All of this

and I would add a number 4...

4.  When you buy Jiberish, you're not just purchasing a hoodie or a tshirt or a real sick looking vest, you are purchasing the brand.  Sure many other companies produce sick cut and sewn hoodies, but when it comes down to it, it is the people behind the brand and the culture behind the brand that keep consumers coming back for more. 

Pole plant with style!
kool.aid.man$
Karma : 13510
1163 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
6:44:51
Quoting A@r0n$ from Nov 3 2009 6:29:56:
yea you can. i get lrg shit for like 20-35 and its sick.
 i wish i could afford more than that, but hey we all cant have unlimited $
last time i checked lrg wasn't supporting the ski industry in anyway what so ever.


TWood gave the best explination, and all of you 5 year olds are way to stupid to comprehend the answer. Yes some of you beat around the bush and are 1% correct in saying that the reason the prices are so high is because people will buy them, but as TWood stated, most of this shit is hand made. For christ sake its going to be expensive. These materials are expensive, cut and sew is the most expensive. Jibberish is like "designer" wear for skiers. It is like Gucci or Dulce and Gabana or whatever the fuck you call it. Don't want to believe it, well believe it. Jibberish is high quality made products made with love. This thread is so pointless I almost want to smash my laptop. If your complaining about the price of all da jibberishes, learn something then come post.

/end thread please and thank you.
_________________________________________
>>>> www.thirdwardwest.info

thegoat
Karma : 1857
270 Posts
Loner
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Nov 3 2009
6:45:56
Quoting Atypical from Nov 3 2009 6:15:33:
You make silly points.
The kid asked why it costs what it does, people started going on about some unrelated factor about quality and small brand and this and other stuff that has little to do with final price, and I told him/her/it why it costs what it does and you doubted me and I responded.


Wil Vicik - RIP
Atypical
Karma : 3291
1228 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
6:47:29
Quoting thegoat from Nov 3 2009 6:45:56:
The kid asked why it costs what it does, people started going on about some unrelated factor about quality and small brand and this and other stuff that has little to do with final price, and I told him/her/it why it costs what it does and you doubted me and I responded.
thanks for the recap?
daytripper67
Karma : 225
684 Posts
Ridiculous
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Nov 3 2009
6:53:02
Quoting Atypical from Nov 3 2009 6:15:33:
Well no shit. If people were willing to pay 6 dollars for a gallon of gas, wouldn't it go up?

You make silly points.
he did not make a silly point
jamodeo
Karma : 4411
638 Posts
Ridiculous
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Nov 3 2009
6:53:27
Quoting Wibby from Nov 3 2009 3:36:41:
nice stuff costs more...
through and through this is tried and true i have no idea why i had to rhyme that but pretty much this
sagged pants, wide stance; tall tees, cork threes; goggle sag, sponsor swag; hip-hop and rap, tranfer gap; afterbang, in a gang; stylie grabs, sick hand drags
Atypical
Karma : 3291
1228 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
6:54:40
Quoting daytripper67 from Nov 3 2009 6:53:02:
he did not make a silly point
what you mean that if people are willing to pay more than the prices will rise?

yeah that's pretty silly to me. In the obvious way.
grifftang
Karma : 975
878 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
6:58:07
some people of NS need to take econ 101
meow and woof
  ∆
∆ ∆
i used to be grifftang, now im the catdog

Sheldon
Karma : 1295
288 Posts
Loner
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Nov 3 2009
6:58:17
Quoting Atypical from Nov 3 2009 5:30:52:
this is false.
Agreed with thegoat. He doesn't make silly points, they're just over your head or your simply being retarded for fun. Jibberish is a boutique brand, Walmart sells generic brands for cheap because of their purchasing power.

Stop comparing each item based on it's intrinsic value, which is maybe a few dollars of fabric, design and printing. The premium paid on top of that value determines what the item sells for, when coupled with demand. Also, Jibberish doesn't produce hundreds of thousands of these hoodies, so their per-item cost is higher when producing limited quantities. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_scale )


31337
bananas
Karma : 2019
790 Posts
Ridiculous
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Nov 3 2009
6:59:09
i wish you were cheaper
Yeah plus 1 posts :)

A@r0n$
Karma : 9168
5245 Posts
No Life
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Nov 3 2009
7:02:50
Quoting kool.aid.man$ from Nov 3 2009 6:44:51:
last time i checked lrg wasn't supporting the ski industry in anyway what so ever.TWood gave the best explination, and all of you 5 year olds are way to stupid to comprehend the answer. Yes some of you beat around the bush and are 1% correct in saying that the reason the prices are so high is because people will buy them, but as TWood stated, most of this shit is hand made. For christ sake its going to be expensive. These materials are expensive, cut and sew is the most expensive. Jibberish is like "designer" wear for skiers. It is like Gucci or Dulce and Gabana or whatever the fuck you call it. Don't want to believe it, well believe it. Jibberish is high quality made products made with love. This thread is so pointless I almost want to smash my laptop. If your complaining about the price of all da jibberishes, learn something then come post./end thread please and thank you.

i dont give a fuck if they are or not. i buy it because its what i can afford, and it looks sick.

i support jiberish, and know why it costs as much as it does,

you just restated every thing said before, dont go ranting and try to be an asshole.

 the thread should have ended long time ago.

/thread

"jesus, this thread is 80% sarcasm and 20% downs syndrome"-Ender$

its so steezin, its almost freezin!


"so........ i didnt really have any screws, or any matching bindings left, so i guess nails should work. shouldnt they? i see no problem having nails as long as they dont tear out while im hitting massive booters and drops and grind bars."-Brentizzle

G_Steezy
Karma : 603
193 Posts
Pro
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Nov 3 2009
7:04:23
Quoting bananas from Nov 3 2009 6:59:09:
i wish you were cheaper


Gangsta Gangsta
www.shutupwomangetonmyhorse.com
Ride the River (Sunday River)
butter me baby
afterbang = sloppy seconds?
fuzzball
Karma : 12591
316 Posts
Loner
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Nov 3 2009
7:51:26
Quoting kool.aid.man$ from Nov 3 2009 6:44:51:
last time i checked lrg wasn't supporting the ski industry in anyway what so ever.TWood gave the best explination, and all of you 5 year olds are way to stupid to comprehend the answer. Yes some of you beat around the bush and are 1% correct in saying that the reason the prices are so high is because people will buy them, but as TWood stated, most of this shit is hand made. For christ sake its going to be expensive. These materials are expensive, cut and sew is the most expensive. Jibberish is like "designer" wear for skiers. It is like Gucci or Dulce and Gabana or whatever the fuck you call it. Don't want to believe it, well believe it. Jibberish is high quality made products made with love. This thread is so pointless I almost want to smash my laptop. If your complaining about the price of all da jibberishes, learn something then come post./end thread please and thank you.
yes. LRG does not support anything within the industry.
________________________________________ Scott Nelson WV
jfletcher
Karma : 6131
767 Posts
Ridiculous
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Nov 3 2009
8:56:16
they call that shit recession proof. Year right, Jiberishes only weakness is a recession. Who the fuck can pay $95 for a shirt....
I find Brogan is like the Weezy of skiing - Summersover
Scott29~
Karma : 14
61 Posts
Wannabe
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Nov 3 2009
9:02:43
Because people are stupid enough to keep buying it~
AmbushClothing
Karma : 17853
1597 Posts
Insane
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Nov 3 2009
9:23:53
stuff is suuper dope. good stuff cool people.. but if you need cheaper stuff, www.ambushclothing.com , new site nov 15th. stich sew tall hoodies and crews
WWW.AMBUSHCLOTHING.COM "Grassroots Clothing" From City Streets, to the Ocean Beach, above to Mountain tops... we make your swagger POP!
A@r0n$
Karma : 9168
5245 Posts
No Life
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Nov 3 2009
10:01:57
Quoting AmbushClothing from Nov 3 2009 9:23:53:
stuff is suuper dope. good stuff cool people.. but if you need cheaper stuff, www.ambushclothing.com , new site nov 15th. stich sew tall hoodies and crews

WOOO! THREAD JACKS ROCK!

:)

"jesus, this thread is 80% sarcasm and 20% downs syndrome"-Ender$

its so steezin, its almost freezin!


"so........ i didnt really have any screws, or any matching bindings left, so i guess nails should work. shouldnt they? i see no problem having nails as long as they dont tear out while im hitting massive booters and drops and grind bars."-Brentizzle

amo$
Karma : 16873
2248 Posts
Addict
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Nov 3 2009
10:17:04
Quoting TWoods from Nov 3 2009 3:40:52:
1. the material itself This isn't regular shitty ringspun cotton. It's thicker, better made, more quality materials.
La Crete de Rapier Black – Fluttering pennants of the Jiberish brand fly proud as rapiere swords ward off naysayers to the clan's creative agenda. Flag lances may be lowered for battle. Ringspun super-soft cotton. Jiberish Cut-and Sew construction. Slim taller fit. This is a pre-order item. Item will not ship until late November. Tags: , , , Share on Facebook,Digg This


"Ringspun super-soft cotton"





salt
"hmmm from flat to fabulous in seconds... it would be nice if there were boob bump its."
-*christ*

Respect is love in plain clothes.

JsNeagle
Karma : 34765
720 Posts
Ridiculous
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Nov 3 2009
10:19:08
Premium product = premium pricing.  If it was cheaper, Jiberish wouldn't be Jiberish.... if you know what I'm saying.
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