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Disabling Up/Down voting in threads

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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
We just disabled the ability to up/down vote specific posts within a thread.

For now, its an experiment - but if people like it we'll leave it that way.

Up/Down voting in threads was created to give us the data necessary to rank/sort/filter posts based on quality. These views were never finished, and the culture around voting became a signal of whether you agree with the post or not vs. how good it was. That was never the intended purpose... if you want to agree with someone, post up and state your opinion.


The plans for different thread sorting options and filtering were brought up with the community in various discussions and every time they were met with bitter opposition.

Add those two items together and we just made the call to disable them to see what happens.

**This thread was edited on Aug 4th 2016 at 12:37:43pm
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Jul 14 2016 12:35PM
31 72
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KaneDog
Posts: 1551 - Karma: 2,190
How will we know who wins the argument in the thread? :/
Jul 14 2016 1:17PM
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Dddsz
Posts: 3042 - Karma: 7,328
KaneDogHow will we know who wins the argument in the thread? :/


Because the argument will continue until somebody gets shut down... instead of passively downbombing each other.


I really like this idea, mods. Upvotes/down-votes were the main reason that NS was bothering me... logging in to find that my comment was -10 with no replies or explanations was frustrating.
Jul 14 2016 2:38PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
SconnieBecause the argument will continue until somebody gets shut down... instead of passively downbombing each other.


I really like this idea, mods. Upvotes/down-votes were the main reason that NS was bothering me... logging in to find that my comment was -10 with no replies or explanations was frustrating.


The real problem was people using the voting system to say if they agreed or not. It works a lot better in media or in threaded conversations where you vote on if its good or not.... but anyway its out and I'm also hoping to see people actively disagree with words vs. silence.
Jul 14 2016 2:46PM
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Deepskier
Posts: 3267 - Karma: 4,818
Bring it back
Jul 14 2016 3:11PM
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MNSkiers
Posts: 1154 - Karma: 7,533
DeepskierBring it back

agreed. I feel like in threads its just going to be a lot of people quoting others posts and just saying "^" or "same"
Jul 14 2016 3:52PM
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Deepskier
Posts: 3267 - Karma: 4,818
MNSkiersagreed. I feel like in threads its just going to be a lot of people quoting others posts and just saying "^" or "same"


Its just annoying as fuck when i go to give someone props or shame them. How will kids know they made an awful post besides the mass ridicule. But serious;y bishop bring them back.
Jul 14 2016 3:59PM
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MNSkiers
Posts: 1154 - Karma: 7,533
DeepskierIts just annoying as fuck when i go to give someone props or shame them. How will kids know they made an awful post besides the mass ridicule. But serious;y bishop bring them back.

Not even kidding I went to upvote this post. But then I remembered
Jul 14 2016 5:10PM
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Deepskier
Posts: 3267 - Karma: 4,818
MNSkiersNot even kidding I went to upvote this post. But then I remembered


See how much your actions impact us, Bishop. #BRINGVOTESBACK2K16
Jul 14 2016 5:25PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
DeepskierIts just annoying as fuck when i go to give someone props or shame them. How will kids know they made an awful post besides the mass ridicule. But serious;y bishop bring them back.


I mean mass ridicule is the idea.
Jul 14 2016 5:34PM
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Deepskier
Posts: 3267 - Karma: 4,818
Mr.BishopI mean mass ridicule is the idea.


This site is full of kids that HAVE TO point out how wrong someone else is and down voting is how they can but without it kids must make stupid little posts. PS what happened to on the road with mr bishop?
Jul 14 2016 5:50PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5206 - Karma: 20,187
Don't bring them back, people are actually replying more then once in Ski gabber threads now

people just saying "same" is such a small issue idk why people care that much
Jul 14 2016 5:51PM
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Slush
Posts: 1905 - Karma: 12,901
This makes NS way less enjoyable.. Like considerably. I can already feel myself shying away from coming online as often as I used to, there's no point in putting effort into posts now. I rarely get replies to things I post, and now with the rating system gone, I feel like everything I do is gonna be another fart in the wind
Jul 14 2016 6:04PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5206 - Karma: 20,187
SlushI rarely get replies to things I post


maybe that was because of the ratings?
Jul 14 2016 6:26PM
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Slush
Posts: 1905 - Karma: 12,901
a_burgermaybe that was because of the ratings?


No, regardless. People don't usually quote or reply, and when it does happen sometimes it's nothing worth reading. I'd come back to threads to see if my comment was upvoted or down voted, and normally reply to someone in the thread while I was there. There's no real point in re-visiting threads for me anymore, unless a thread contains interesting content
Jul 14 2016 6:43PM
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Slush
Posts: 1905 - Karma: 12,901
It also make visiting new threads unappealing as well. Go into a thread full of funny stories, I don't normally have the patience to read all of them, so I read some of the more upvoted stories. Now I just don't even bother because I don't feel like reading every story in the thread looking for a good one. Good posts don't get recognition, bad posts sit there and be bad. This new system is shit
Jul 14 2016 6:50PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5206 - Karma: 20,187
SlushIt also make visiting new threads unappealing as well. Go into a thread full of funny stories, I don't normally have the patience to read all of them, so I read some of the more upvoted stories. Now I just don't even bother because I don't feel like reading every story in the thread looking for a good one. Good posts don't get recognition, bad posts sit there and be bad. This new system is shit


sounds like you just have an awful attention span
Jul 14 2016 6:57PM
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gapersarefriends
Posts: 2158 - Karma: 4,269
Bring it back
Jul 14 2016 6:59PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
SlushThis makes NS way less enjoyable.. Like considerably. I can already feel myself shying away from coming online as often as I used to, there's no point in putting effort into posts now. I rarely get replies to things I post, and now with the rating system gone, I feel like everything I do is gonna be another fart in the wind


You're definitely being over dramatic.

This is is an experiment. Well let it play out for the next month or so because half the members would debate the direct opposite of you.

If if everyone really missed it, it's easy to bring back. If not, easy to leave off.
Jul 14 2016 7:13PM
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special-J
Posts: 1572 - Karma: 4,477
I'm sure I'm not the only one that based what they read off the votes. It's a hell of a lot easier to see high numbers and negative signs while scrolling through a thread than to read every single post. Most of the time I just don't care enough to actually read conversations, I just want to read the mic-drop roast or how dumb someone sounds.

I, for one, will be spending significantly less time in the forums now. Not saying that in a rude way, just giving you some feedback.
Jul 14 2016 9:02PM
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arnie_grape
Posts: 3429 - Karma: 11,383
SlushThis makes NS way less enjoyable.. Like considerably. I can already feel myself shying away from coming online as often as I used to, there's no point in putting effort into posts now. I rarely get replies to things I post, and now with the rating system gone, I feel like everything I do is gonna be another fart in the wind


well maybe you're part of the reason the forums are dying then.

it's meant to be a discussion board, not a popularity contest. if you're just posting things to get upvotes you're a shitcunt.

I'm stoked on this change. before the voting people actually had discussions, fights and funny trolls rather than just skimming everything and clicking the arrows or shitposting just to get votes.

example: I just called you a shitcunt and you can't downvote me. what are you going to do about it?
Jul 14 2016 10:15PM
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Zimmy
Posts: 1258 - Karma: -1,327
I think I deserve a black username for all the downvotes I've gotten. I've earned those, and want recognition. Ideally, I'd like to see who gave me the most downvotes so I can ask for some feedback, 'cos otherwise solely downvoting is a coward/moron's way to interact.
Jul 14 2016 10:23PM
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gapersarefriends
Posts: 2158 - Karma: 4,269
baby_HCI think I deserve a black username for all the downvotes I've gotten. I've earned those, and want recognition. Ideally, I'd like to see who gave me the most downvotes so I can ask for some feedback, 'cos otherwise solely downvoting is a coward/moron's way to interact.


Nah you should just fuck off
Jul 14 2016 11:54PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
baby_HCI think I deserve a black username for all the downvotes I've gotten. I've earned those, and want recognition. Ideally, I'd like to see who gave me the most downvotes so I can ask for some feedback, 'cos otherwise solely downvoting is a coward/moron's way to interact.


Well you can still drop someone's karma score by rating them. If it's really bad you have to go to their profile to get that 1 to a 0.
Jul 15 2016 10:09AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
GORILLAWALLACE.
example: I just called you a shitcunt and you can't downvote me. what are you going to do about it?


Pwned.

Threads for response.
Jul 15 2016 10:11AM
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broto
Posts: 9039 - Karma: 25,658
Question to those opposing the removal of voting: were you around before up/downvotes were introduced in the first place? Can you give an opinion on how the forums were before/after their implementation?
Jul 15 2016 11:31AM
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treebeard
Posts: 3589 - Karma: 1,065
brotoQuestion to those opposing the removal of voting: were you around before up/downvotes were introduced in the first place? Can you give an opinion on how the forums were before/after their implementation?


I'm in favor of the change, which might skew my response, but here's the way I see it: Prior to up/downvoting of any sort, people cared way more about their Karma. If you were an active forum poster, you probably checked your karma score every day to see how people reacted to your recent posts. While you were reading threads, you gave or removed karma in relation to a given member's post. That member, in turn, probably saw their karma score change and responded in kind. It was a see-saw game that was way more interesting than up/downvotes because you kinda had to guess who was adding/removing your karma

Since the addition of up/downvotes, I feel like most (especially newer) members wholly abandoned the karma exchange system. I'm hoping with the removal of up/downvotes people will go back to the old karma system. You can still "downvote" the shit out of someone, but now it only happens once. Honestly I attribute a huge amount of my knowledge of other members to the old days of actually going to someone's profile, or hovering over their karma score to see if they were a good member or a general piece of shit
Jul 15 2016 5:19PM
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arnie_grape
Posts: 3429 - Karma: 11,383
Mr.BishopWell you can still drop someone's karma score by rating them. If it's really bad you have to go to their profile to get that 1 to a 0.


would be good if we could still see karma graphs
why did those go away?
Jul 15 2016 6:21PM
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TheHamburglar
Posts: 3895 - Karma: 3,314
Bring em back
Jul 15 2016 6:51PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
GORILLAWALLACEwould be good if we could still see karma graphs
why did those go away?


Mega coding bonanza going on in the back end right now. Old Karma graphs sucked, we'll get something new up soon.
Jul 15 2016 10:56PM
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Laurent.
Posts: 10054 - Karma: 25,277
I want them to return, how else can I now feed my insatiable ego?

Upvotes were love & life.
Jul 16 2016 5:17AM
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Deepskier
Posts: 3267 - Karma: 4,818
SlushThis makes NS way less enjoyable.. Like considerably. I can already feel myself shying away from coming online as often as I used to, there's no point in putting effort into posts now. I rarely get replies to things I post, and now with the rating system gone, I feel like everything I do is gonna be another fart in the wind


I went to up this
Jul 16 2016 5:21PM
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Deforestation
Posts: 1606 - Karma: 3,192
Mr.BishopYou're definitely being over dramatic.

This is is an experiment. Well let it play out for the next month or so because half the members would debate the direct opposite of you.

If if everyone really missed it, it's easy to bring back. If not, easy to leave off.


He was absolutely overstating the effect that up/downvotes had but I do understand where he's coming from. Yes there were and are people who would downvote a post without explanation but I feel that more people upvote good posts than downvote bad, and when I'm skimming a thread as opposed to reading every post in it's entirety, it's a lot easier to find the answer to a question or understand what the community agrees with when there's a quick visual to explain.

I understand that it can be frustrating when you're at -12 on a post with no direct reply explanations but tbh that's a cost I at least hope a majority of NSers would be willing to pay in order to bring back the positive aspects of the system.

Put it to a vote??

*based on the replies in this thread it's 9-5 in favor of returning the system, with 3 or 4 members making general statements that didn't put them on a specific side of the argument, obviously an actual vote would be better though. (Bishop counted as pro-removal)
Jul 16 2016 10:02PM
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Dddsz
Posts: 3042 - Karma: 7,328
Mr.BishopThe plans for different thread sorting options and filtering were brought up with the community in various discussions and every time they were met with bitter opposition.


I'm having second thoughts on my original opinion. We should reward good/funny comments and leave the rest up for discussion or criticism. I think a "Like" button would be a good idea. Facebook's system is fine.
Jul 17 2016 12:32AM
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Deforestation
Posts: 1606 - Karma: 3,192
SconnieI'm having second thoughts on my original opinion. We should reward good/funny comments and leave the rest up for discussion or criticism. I think a "Like" button would be a good idea. Facebook's system is fine.


Better than nothing, but imo the weak shal still be destroyed
Jul 17 2016 12:33AM
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MiniMeDanny
Posts: 1737 - Karma: 2,312
Bring it back!
Jul 17 2016 12:58AM
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stinky_cheese
Posts: 1215 - Karma: 5,118
I really miss the ability to up vote or down vote posts within a thread.

There's just something invigorating about down voting a dumb post, empowering almost. It makes me personally feel like I'm the king of the world

bring it back
Jul 17 2016 2:20AM
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a_burger
Posts: 5206 - Karma: 20,187
I think people need to look beyond the fact that you can't vote anymore. The point of the change isn't to just to stop upvoting/downvoting, it's to increase forum activity. And since they changed it the forums definitely seem more active with more posting.

Yeah it sucks you actually have to read threads now and your trolling actually has to be good to illicit a response but isn't that the point of a forum? Upvotes are cool and all but what will be the point when people get tired of being beaten to posting the 1 liner and theres nobody left to upvote your posts?
Jul 17 2016 3:15PM
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Zimmy
Posts: 1258 - Karma: -1,327
On Hacker News, the points display from up/downvoting was removed but the voting buttons remained. Admin didn't like how some threads became a gang-up competition on who you agree with. Voting remained so points could be used to order thread, and also fade-out some comments.

But that's a forum for computer geeks where people seem to be able to vote according to a comment's value that it brings to the conversation, not whether they agree with it or not.

Voting also helps to save comments and threads for later viewing.

gapersarefriendsNah you should just fuck off


The big issue on this site are the full d-bags who would censor or ban you at first opportunity because they have arrested development and like standing next to giant penises (see the profile page.)
Jul 17 2016 4:06PM
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Deforestation
Posts: 1606 - Karma: 3,192
a_burgerI think people need to look beyond the fact that you can't vote anymore. The point of the change isn't to just to stop upvoting/downvoting, it's to increase forum activity. And since they changed it the forums definitely seem more active with more posting.

Yeah it sucks you actually have to read threads now and your trolling actually has to be good to illicit a response but isn't that the point of a forum? Upvotes are cool and all but what will be the point when people get tired of being beaten to posting the 1 liner and theres nobody left to upvote your posts?


this shit is part of wht makes ns what is tho
Jul 17 2016 5:02PM
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413Crew
Posts: 1636 - Karma: 5,612
i have to agree the main reason i come on ns is to see how many upvotes i got, not a fan of this change but i see why u did it
Jul 17 2016 5:05PM
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Rennis_Deynolds
Posts: 2739 - Karma: 19,061
bring it back- people say stupid shit and need to get downvoted
Jul 17 2016 5:16PM
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arnie_grape
Posts: 3429 - Karma: 11,383
413Crewi have to agree the main reason i come on ns is to see how many upvotes i got,


get fucked then

if you want attention just post on instagram or facebook about how you think you're getting fat. forums aren't a place for you to boost your ego.
Jul 17 2016 5:36PM
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arnie_grape
Posts: 3429 - Karma: 11,383
also I don't know how many times bishop has explained this but ITS AN EXPERIMENT
just give it a try for now. when you see something you'd normally just up/downvote and move on, say something instead. either that or let the forums die. god forbid you put some thought into your opinions.
Jul 17 2016 5:42PM
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413Crew
Posts: 1636 - Karma: 5,612
GORILLAWALLACEget fucked then

if you want attention just post on instagram or facebook about how you think you're getting fat. forums aren't a place for you to boost your ego.


i dont always troll a forum post just to see how many upvotesi can get. i will contribute to a thread its not about boosting my ego at all. just intresting to see if people liked wht i posted in the thread or not thats all.
Jul 17 2016 5:44PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5206 - Karma: 20,187
Deforestationthis shit is part of wht makes ns what is tho


ns was ns (and arguably a better ns) for more then a decade before we had upvotes


if you guys care so much about getting upvoted/downvoted, why not just shift that focus to getting quoted? You might have to put in more effort to do it but I'd argue the reward is greater not only for you but the community because it contributes to discussion
Jul 17 2016 8:06PM
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broto
Posts: 9039 - Karma: 25,658
DeforestationBetter than nothing, but imo the weak shal still be destroyed


Deforestationthis shit is part of wht makes ns what is tho


Upvotes have been around for a couple of years, and NS has existed since '99. They definitely aren't what "make" ns. Stop making a big deal about the fact that you can't tell how popular a post is and focus on whether you can see changes in the quality of the posts themselves. Unfortunately for many lazy people, this means they will have to read entire posts before forming an opinion on them.

A lot of the arguments seem to be about how with the voting system, you can tell which posts are "good" or "bad". The thing is, the only "bad" posts are the ones that don't contribute to discussion, which a lot of people dont seem to realize, and thus a lot of unpopular (but totally valid) opinions are looked right over. And why do you trust other members so much to weed out good or bad posts? The logic and judgement of a lot of people on here is questionable at best. Up votes don't highlight good posts, they highlight popular ones
Jul 17 2016 9:35PM
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Deforestation
Posts: 1606 - Karma: 3,192
brotoUpvotes have been around for a couple of years, and NS has existed since '99. They definitely aren't what "make" ns. Stop making a big deal about the fact that you can't tell how popular a post is and focus on whether you can see changes in the quality of the posts themselves. Unfortunately for many lazy people, this means they will have to read entire posts before forming an opinion on them.

A lot of the arguments seem to be about how with the voting system, you can tell which posts are "good" or "bad". The thing is, the only "bad" posts are the ones that don't contribute to discussion, which a lot of people dont seem to realize, and thus a lot of unpopular (but totally valid) opinions are looked right over. And why do you trust other members so much to weed out good or bad posts? The logic and judgement of a lot of people on here is questionable at best. Up votes don't highlight good posts, they highlight popular ones


I didn't say they "make" ns, i said they're part of what make ns what it is obviously they have no effect on what it used to be.

Why do I trust other members to weed out posts? It's simple statistics. Basically the larger your sample size, the more accurate the results of a survey when applied to the whole population. Sure some people are idiots, but maybe I am too. I like to see (not read, and not because I'm lazy but because I like to waste as little time as possible) people's opinions on the topic not to change my own but to quickly understand what many believe. I don't give a shit if posts are a popularity contest or not.
Jul 17 2016 9:42PM
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SSteezle
Posts: 9221 - Karma: 9,939
yep, bring it back
Jul 17 2016 10:07PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5206 - Karma: 20,187
brotoUpvotes have been around for a couple of years, and NS has existed since '99. They definitely aren't what "make" ns. Stop making a big deal about the fact that you can't tell how popular a post is and focus on whether you can see changes in the quality of the posts themselves. Unfortunately for many lazy people, this means they will have to read entire posts before forming an opinion on them.

A lot of the arguments seem to be about how with the voting system, you can tell which posts are "good" or "bad". The thing is, the only "bad" posts are the ones that don't contribute to discussion, which a lot of people dont seem to realize, and thus a lot of unpopular (but totally valid) opinions are looked right over. And why do you trust other members so much to weed out good or bad posts? The logic and judgement of a lot of people on here is questionable at best. Up votes don't highlight good posts, they highlight popular ones


this
Jul 18 2016 3:21PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
GORILLAWALLACEalso I don't know how many times bishop has explained this but ITS AN EXPERIMENT
just give it a try for now. when you see something you'd normally just up/downvote and move on, say something instead. either that or let the forums die. god forbid you put some thought into your opinions.


Thanks bud. Helpful to have people realize this. :)
Jul 18 2016 3:51PM
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