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ParryWithAnAA few more decent storms will bring us close to 500 inches of snow fall. It
Anyone a snow scientist? I'm curious what melts faster. Compacted old snow, or new snow.
Compacted snow insulates itself and lasts a significant amount longer. That's why when resorts make snow (more so east coast) they leave them in piles for as long as possible. When they spread it out on the hill, it melts way faster due to increased surface area and a lack of insulation!
I see you are tiring of the capitalist system of living, and the high snow levels in the PNW. Have you ever considered skiing the Tieback Mountains instead? Just a few miles from the seaside resort of Wonsan lies some of the best skiing in the world at Glorious Masikyrong Ski Resort, and I would like to extend you a personal invitation to come ski our extensive terrain and experience the ultimate in luxury accommodations. Masik pass receives more than 200 inches of snow a year, and the lack of crowds ensures a glorious surface for all visitors. Masikyrong truly is world class. As an extra incentive, we have some of the best riding in the world, as you will never have to worry about the high snow levels associated with the PNW. I would love to welcome you to experience the joy that is skiing in the DPRK. Although our rails may not be as extensive as the ones in the PNW, I can assure you the glorious snow surface and lack of crowds ensure that you will have an excellent time skiing in the DPRK. Give thank!
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a genuine workers' state in which all the people are completely liberated from exploitation and oppression. The workers, peasants, soldiers and intellectuals are the true masters of their destiny and are in a unique position to defend their interests. Having mandatory equality all necessary is provided for citizen. Thank.
I see you are tiring of the capitalist system of living, and the high snow levels in the PNW. Have you ever considered skiing the Tieback Mountains instead? Just a few miles from the seaside resort of Wonsan lies some of the best skiing in the world at Glorious Masikyrong Ski Resort, and I would like to extend you a personal invitation to come ski our extensive terrain and experience the ultimate in luxury accommodations. Masik pass receives more than 200 inches of snow a year, and the lack of crowds ensures a glorious surface for all visitors. Masikyrong truly is world class. As an extra incentive, we have some of the best riding in the world, as you will never have to worry about the high snow levels associated with the PNW. I would love to welcome you to experience the joy that is skiing in the DPRK. Although our rails may not be as extensive as the ones in the PNW, I can assure you the glorious snow surface and lack of crowds ensure that you will have an excellent time skiing in the DPRK. Give thank!
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a genuine workers' state in which all the people are completely liberated from exploitation and oppression. The workers, peasants, soldiers and intellectuals are the true masters of their destiny and are in a unique position to defend their interests. Having mandatory equality all necessary is provided for citizen. Thank.
Yours,
Kim Jong-Un
Supreme Leader, DPRK
That was the most effort i've seen someone put into trolling in a while.
.CJ.Yessir, the base at Timberline lodge just got 40 inches in two days.
It's not uncommon for the Palmer lift to get buried by snow
Palmer lift was designed to be covered with snow and go into "hibernation" each winter. its actually pretty cool. First lift here: http://www.chairlift.org/timberline.html
DrailI think glaciers can answer that question for you. The more compact and dense the snow is, the longer it sticks around.
Old snow like we had last year had a crazy about of dust/dirt. That means a lot of light is being absorbed and the snow melts fast.(?)
I looked and around and didn't find any real answer. Palmer is also a snow field and not a glacier. Glacier ice probably melts at a different rate then compacted snow.
ParryWithAnAA few more decent storms will bring us close to 500 inches of snow fall. It Anyone a snow scientist? I'm curious what melts faster. Compacted old snow, or new snow.
i think the proof is right on the mtn, in spring its very common to see woods and every place except the trail with no snow, i think this would be because of the man-made snow combined with groomers compacting frequently. could be wrong, im no scientist.
ParryWithAnAOld snow like we had last year had a crazy about of dust/dirt. That means a lot of light is being absorbed and the snow melts fast.(?)
I looked and around and didn't find any real answer. Palmer is also a snow field and not a glacier. Glacier ice probably melts at a different rate then compacted snow.
Well yeah, I'm just assuming on my end and haven't actually tried to look into the science behind it, so you know, it's just like, my opinion (man). My logic is glaciers come from large amounts of snow being compacted to the point it turns into ice. Glaciers are still around 10000 years after the ice age ended. Therefor I have to assume that from the very beginning of snow compaction due to large snow packs there would have to be a relatively straight forward trend of compaction = longevity.
That being said, nothing is uniform, and as you mentioned - impurities from dust/dirt to ash to how much of the snowpack has facets and is rotten, to moisture content would change things a great deal.
I personally have always wondered if in the spring/summer months we loose more snow on hot sunny days or warm rainy days.
speedyswapper34i think the proof is right on the mtn, in spring its very common to see woods and every place except the trail with no snow, i think this would be because of the man-made snow combined with groomers compacting frequently. could be wrong, im no scientist.
Snow farming throughout the winter would also be what you are seeing. The runs they plan on having open into the summer are going to have a lot more snow pushed onto them over the course of the winter and spring in preparation for the hot late spring/summer months so it's unfair to compare the run to the adjacent trees.
The difference between packed snow and new snow is 1) heat conduction 2) albedo.
New snow is mostly air whereas packed snow is entirely water in both solid and liquid phase. Water has a much greater heat capacity than air and ice reflects incoming solar radiation more efficiently.
DrailI personally have always wondered if in the spring/summer months we loose more snow on hot sunny days or warm rainy days.
Definitely rainy days. Heat is transferred via radiation on sunny warm days. There's a degree of contact(which transfers heat faster) with rain that melts the top layer of the snow, essentially breaking down how the snow would insulate itself. I don't know specific numbers, but resorts are way more concerned about rain than they are about warm days.
I forgot what the numbers were, but I think 40F and raining produced the same effects as 60-65 and sunny/ 70-75 and cloudy.
MinggDefinitely rainy days. Heat is transferred via radiation on sunny warm days. There's a degree of contact(which transfers heat faster) with rain that melts the top layer of the snow, essentially breaking down how the snow would insulate itself. I don't know specific numbers, but resorts are way more concerned about rain than they are about warm days.
I forgot what the numbers were, but I think 40F and raining produced the same effects as 60-65 and sunny/ 70-75 and cloudy.
You didn't really say anything there. I asked: HOT sunny days vs warm rainy days. You gave me the answer to warm(ish) sunny days vs rainy days. Followed by (what I assume as) proper math that gives me the answer that is opposite of what you said.
If what you said at the end of your post is true, than a hot sunny day does melt snow faster than a warm rainy day. Its not like 18C (65F)is that hot to begin with. So thanks, I guess?
MinggDefinitely rainy days. Heat is transferred via radiation on sunny warm days. There's a degree of contact(which transfers heat faster) with rain that melts the top layer of the snow, essentially breaking down how the snow would insulate itself. I don't know specific numbers, but resorts are way more concerned about rain than they are about warm days.
I forgot what the numbers were, but I think 40F and raining produced the same effects as 60-65 and sunny/ 70-75 and cloudy.
Yes but you're forgetting another key element: wind. Heat transferred via convection on a warm windy day melts snow like no other. Faster than a cold rain, even. But that depends on the current state of the snow.. If it's dry, it'll be able to absorb a lot of liquid water (rain) in a good ol' equilibrium before the frozen water (snow) actually melts. And if you're lucky, the temps will drop below freezing soon after and that liquid water within the snow will freeze, making a better snow layer. If it's convection on ice and the temp is near freezing, the rain will slide ride off without melting much. Blah blah you could write a 100 page report on the 6,000 different ways snow melts.
There are so many factors here that to get a specific answer you need a specific question. Most people in this thread have been right, even though people.
DrailYou didn't really say anything there. I asked: HOT sunny days vs warm rainy days. You gave me the answer to warm(ish) sunny days vs rainy days. Followed by (what I assume as) proper math that gives me the answer that is opposite of what you said.
If what you said at the end of your post is true, than a hot sunny day does melt snow faster than a warm rainy day. Its not like 18C (65F)is that hot to begin with. So thanks, I guess?
Oh I thought you were using hot and warm synonymously. In which case, it depends on a lot of shit haha. My bad. Rain is bad. That's all I was getting at hahaha.
speedyswapper34i think the proof is right on the mtn, in spring its very common to see woods and every place except the trail with no snow, i think this would be because of the man-made snow combined with groomers compacting frequently. could be wrong, im no scientist.
Vegetation traps in heat and radiates it out slowly.
For example, if it's a cold night it's better to be in the woods than in an open field.
MinggOh I thought you were using hot and warm synonymously. In which case, it depends on a lot of shit haha. My bad. Rain is bad. That's all I was getting at hahaha.
Yeah. Like +10C and moderate/heavy rain vs +25C and blue bird. Let's say no wind for both.
MinggDefinitely rainy days. Heat is transferred via radiation on sunny warm days. There's a degree of contact(which transfers heat faster) with rain that melts the top layer of the snow, essentially breaking down how the snow would insulate itself. I don't know specific numbers, but resorts are way more concerned about rain than they are about warm days.
I forgot what the numbers were, but I think 40F and raining produced the same effects as 60-65 and sunny/ 70-75 and cloudy.
Well fuck me. The east coast has had nothing but 40-50F and rain this year. I'd much rather shred when it's 60 and sunny of were gonna lose all the same
Anyone here actually study or learn snow science? Curious...
no one's claimed shit in this thread, there have been several posts saying they wished we had a snow science guy in here, and then a few of us have speculated at it, all while readily admitting we aint no experts
JEWmanjiI'm no scientist but I would bet compacted old snow last longer
Titsandwich11im thinking compacted snow melts slower. think about snow piles in the city, and the biggest jumps in a park sticking around forever
MinggCompacted snow insulates itself and lasts a significant amount longer. That's why when resorts make snow (more so east coast) they leave them in piles for as long as possible. When they spread it out on the hill, it melts way faster due to increased surface area and a lack of insulation!
DrailI think glaciers can answer that question for you. The more compact and dense the snow is, the longer it sticks around.
I wouldn't be so sure about this.
Definitely a foot of compact snow will last longer than a foot of fluffy snow. But if you compare based on the actual water content then it might be a different story. So for instance an inch of water might make 10 inches of snow or 2 inches of compact snow. Now will the 2 inches of compact snow last longer than 10 inches of fresh snow? The fresh snow has a way higher r-value than compact snow meaning it insulates itself much better. This means the whole snow pack would take a lot longer to warm up to melting temperatures.
I think this would be the only proper way to compare, since comparing between two completely different masses of water really wouldn't stand up to any scientific criticism if this was done in a study.
MinggCompacted snow insulates itself and lasts a significant amount longer. That's why when resorts make snow (more so east coast) they leave them in piles for as long as possible. When they spread it out on the hill, it melts way faster due to increased surface area and a lack of insulation!
actually they leave them in piles because it allows the water to move down to the bottom of the pile. They don't put them in piles to save the snow. Usually they make enough snow to last a season (or at least long period of time) spread over the run, and then move the equipment elsewhere. The piles of snow allow it to dry out and improve its quality. They used to just blanket runs with man made snow, and it created sheets of ice.
ABskieractually they leave them in piles because it allows the water to move down to the bottom of the pile. They don't put them in piles to save the snow. Usually they make enough snow to last a season (or at least long period of time) spread over the run, and then move the equipment elsewhere. The piles of snow allow it to dry out and improve its quality. They used to just blanket runs with man made snow, and it created sheets of ice.
Oh really? I was talking with one of our snow maker after a meeting and that's what he told me about it. He's also the one who told me about rain vs sun in what I said earlier in the thread. But I guess that was wrong too? Lol
MinggOh really? I was talking with one of our snow maker after a meeting and that's what he told me about it. He's also the one who told me about rain vs sun in what I said earlier in the thread. But I guess that was wrong too? Lol
could also be different in east vs west. in the west they don't usually worry about significant melt during snowmaking season.
Lol there are a lot of experts on this thread.
There are lots of variables that go into the rate at which snow will melt. Some are
-moisture content of the snow
-temp of the ground
-what media is under the snow
-how deep the snow is
-solar insolation (amount of energy reaching the surface, measured in Watthour/metersquared/day)
-humidity
-current pressure system (high/low/if there is an inversion present)
-precipitation
-amount of ice in the snow (if it is older snow there will be more)
-temperature
And I'm sure a few more that I forgot.
So it is very difficult to try to predict if you are just using two variables
I'm not even a "snow scientist" (if that exists) I just am an engineer who has taken a basic earth sciences course
As someone who had worked up at timby. As a lifty. And spent a lot of time working on Palmer( I once pooped in the little shack on midway). It's a tough lift. That pic is definitely from the top terminal. Right as the haul rope. Makes its final bend into the station. It gets lots and lots of snow up there. Super exposed and some what high altitude. Oh and years ago. Before they lowerd the haul rope. It got incased with ice and the wind snapped two towers and yanked the bottom drive terminal fowered off its moorings. They fixed it. But it definitely is not the same.
Spark notes. It's the top terminal in the pic. Hood gets snow. Don't pee into the wind
From talking with snow makers at my local hill, they say a warm wind will melt more snow than a sunny day and a rainy day. The wind causing the warm air to be blown across the hill melts it a lot faster. Also really no matter where your mountain is, a lot of the time they keep the snow in a pile to drain the water out and make the snow dry. Just my 2¢
