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CampeadorViolence and terrorism is far and away more prevalent amongst the followers of the prophet. This is not a coincidence, so please stop pretending that it is. Or you can go full-Obama and bring up the crusades and inquisition.
Again, there really is no comparison. By tomorrow you'll be gritting your teeth when you realize I'm as right about this terrorist attack as I was about the Paris attack initially (including my prediction that the gunmen had posed as "refugees").
Liberalism is a mental disorder.
"According to public records, a Syed R. Farook worked as an environmental health specialist for San Bernardino County. It's unclear whether that is the same person connected to the attack. The shooting occurred at an event for the county's public health department."
gnartogueso anyone who isn't afraid of people because they practice a certain religion has a mental disorder. got it
No one is afraid of Muslims we are worried about people who believe; death should happen if you leave the religion, death if you draw a certain picture, death if your a woman and you get raped and your married, death if youre a homosexual.
You think that's only 5% of islam belive at least one of those things are true?
nocturnalNo one is afraid of Muslims we are worried about people who believe; death should happen if you leave the religion, death if you draw a certain picture, death if your a woman and you get raped and your married, death if youre a homosexual.
You think that's only 5% of islam belive at least one of those things are true?
As of 2012, 46% of people in the United States believe the Earth is 6000 years old.
nocturnalNo one is afraid of Muslims we are worried about people who believe; death should happen if you leave the religion, death if you draw a certain picture, death if your a woman and you get raped and your married, death if youre a homosexual.
You think that's only 5% of islam belive at least one of those things are true?
Don't hide behind rhetoric, if you have something xenophobic to say, just go ahead and say it. You are claiming that the majority of the Muslim population would kill a married women victim of rape? Kill homosexuals, etc?
I happen to know a lot of Muslims, and can tell you that 100% of the Muslims I know wouldn't want anyone dead over the examples you used, or anyone dead period.
If you make the same survey in the Iraqi countryside, I'm sure you will get different results. Just like making a survey in a Mississippi trailer park would get a lot of positive opinions regarding killing n*g*rs, f**gg*ts, and other very christian thoughts.
You'll find hate quotes in every holy book, as well as contradictions, people believe what they chose to believe. And a christian believing the earth is 6000 years old is just as retarded as a Muslim believing that he shouldn't take Christians and Jews as friends.
Your hate towards Muslims is exactly what ISIS is hoping for. Start hating on all of them and making ridiculous generalizations, that will only lead to the 'good ones' flipping to the dark side as a response to the blind stigmatization they will suffer. That's how they recruit, you're playing right into their hand.
It's funny how America is supposed to be the most religious country of the western block, going to church every Sunday and everything. God is all about love, right? Bunch of fucking hypocrites.
Monsieur_PatateDon't hide behind rhetoric, if you have something xenophobic to say, just go ahead and say it. You are claiming that the majority of the Muslim population would kill a married women victim of rape? Kill homosexuals, etc?
I stopped there it's about 20% not most what's 20% of 1.5 billion?
cobra_commanderFollowing Paris:
"An Armed Citizen in a cafe could have stopped th-"
"DONT POLITICIZE THIS"
Following SanBernardino:
"WE NEED GUN CONTROL!!!!"
Consistency is a bit of a bitch eh?
An armed citizen in a cafe would have gotten rekt just the same. I'd like to see you waving your handgun in front of military trained fanatics with assault rifles.
Keep your guns, we don't want those in France. We'll pass on the unlikely chance that an armed citizen could make a difference in such a situation if it saves us from a mass shooting every other day, thanks for your concern, though.
I'm not here for a religious debate but that independent article draws conclusions that are frankly hilarious.
So if they are Belgian, they can't possible be refugees? That's true, they can however pose as such which frankly isn't hard at all, even says so in the article. That they are EU doesn't mean they can't possibly have come from Syria in the contrary several off them have been verified to have fought in Syria.
We know that M. al-Mahmod, had entered the EU with Syrian refugees via the Greek island of Leros on 3 October. Source: BBC
One bomber carried a passport belonging to a 25-year-old Syrian named Ahmad al-Mohammad.
A passport-holder claiming to be a Syrian refugee with that name was registered on Leros in October upon his arrival from Turkey. Source: Reuters The dead attacker's fingerprints matched those taken at the registration on Leros. Source: Reuters French officials concluded that "Ahmad al-Mohammad" is probably a dead Syrian soldier whose passport was stolen after he was killed in Syria.
So that's two who utilised the refugee crisis as an entryway in Europe, they are not refugees, but who can tell?
Monsieur_PatateAn armed citizen in a cafe would have gotten rekt just the same. I'd like to see you waving your handgun in front of military trained fanatics with assault rifles.
Keep your guns, we don't want those in France. We'll pass on the unlikely chance that an armed citizen could make a difference in such a situation if it saves us from a mass shooting every other day, thanks for your concern, though.
I totally understand you sentiment, but to sit there a pretend that someone who owns and carries around their firearm is going to simply "wave" it around is a pathetic argument. Firing at a gunmen could force them to take cover, this could allow time for potential victims to escape. Notice my use of "could." I'm not stating a fact, simply an educated opinion. Take a page out of my book and realize these issues aren't nearly as black and white as you play them off to be.
The.Natty.VeganOh no ISIS is going to kill us all, not the muslims, not the one percent of muslims are actually at risk of becoming or are terrorists. Oh no that one percent is going to kill us all. Note that number also includes muslims that want sharia law but don't advocate for violence to achieve it.
We need to be able to have honest discussions about Islam and people who follow the faith without it being labeled as Islamophobia. For sure only a very small percentage of Muslims will turn to terrorism in defense/promotion of their beliefs. But there are MANY Muslims who think that Sharia Law should be the official law of their land, or that apostates should be put to death, or that stoning is an appropriate punishment for adultery, etc.
While turning to terrorism is just a very small percentage, there are many Muslims who, while they do not resort to terrorism, personally believe & support these violent ideas and want them to be implemented. This does have important consequences that echo through their culture and obviously systems of justice that need to be addressed if want to keep valuing human rights, promoting the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. I find it very odd that many liberals (who constantly defend liberal ideas in America) want to defend religions/cultures that seek to take away the very liberal ideas they support.
Or we continue doing what we can in addressing mental health and in the meantime we do SOMETHING to address the fact that almost all mass shooters obtain their firearms LEGALLY. Regardless of what the motivations were behind this attack, I guarantee they obtained the firearms and munitions legally- if not in California, in one of the neighboring states.
This idea that the only way to address mass shootings is to solve all mental health issues is another reason why the U.S. takes the short bus to U.N. meetings.
SkiBum.Judging by the shooters names they are most likely refugees. Thanks Obama.
No they probably weren't. News reports state they believe at least one of the shooters to be Syed Farook, who worked for the County Health Department and left the Inland Regional Center shortly before the shooting. He lived in Redlands, CA. He was not a refugee.
You know what's funny? Conservatives are already jumping the terrorism shark. It's insane, just because someone is Muslim and has a name to match it's already considered terrorism. The FBI already stated this could be the result of a workplace dispute, its a fucking day after the shooting and hardly any evidence has been gathered.
The gun control advocates need to chill
Conservatives need to shill
Everyone is jumping to conclusions and making themselves look foolish.
I'm personally afraid of any type of religious extremists because religion is not logical. If someone is able to read into their religion that much without questioning any part of it they probably have some sort of mental health problem. I used to canvas houses for charity and the worst people I ever ran into were hardcore Christians. They were always either very rude, angry or made excuses as to why kids in Africa didn't need HIV treatment - they'd say shit like 'it's God's will'. On the flip side of things one of the nicest families I ever ran into (and I went to thousands of houses) was an Islamic family - They were super welcoming, invited me inside (it was -20 out) and even fed me.
I wish Islamic extremists would stop ruining everything for the good Muslims like those people I met that night.
Also the fact that some of you are jumping to conclusions based on the names of these people prove that you really are racist. Because someone has a middle eastern sounding name means it is automatically linked to Islamic extremists? If that's not prejudice I don't know what is...
God damn white Christian terrorists are the real threat to America! Oh, they weren't white? It's gun control that's the issue! Watching people deflect and spin this story to fit their political views is sickening. Why do I feel like today's "leaders" feel the need to divide us by race and religion? We need to stand together, not point fingers and spin stories that breed contempt for one another. Perhaps we could have had a proper debate on gun laws, but now that every liberal media source has riled up all the crazy conservatives with their errant reporting of yesterday's tragedy, we'll never be able to have that discussion. You crazy bleeding heart left AND right supporters are too busy trying to make the "news" fit your narrative to understand the anarchy and division it is amplifying here in America. I love you all, and just wish that one day we'll be able to discuss these topics reasonably like educated adults.
baethovenGod damn white Christian terrorists are the real threat to America! Oh, they weren't white? It's gun control that's the issue! Watching people deflect and spin this story to fit their political views is sickening. Why do I feel like today's "leaders" feel the need to divide us by race and religion? We need to stand together, not point fingers and spin stories that breed contempt for one another. Perhaps we could have had a proper debate on gun laws, but now that every liberal media source has riled up all the crazy conservatives with their errant reporting of yesterday's tragedy, we'll never be able to have that discussion. You crazy bleeding heart left AND right supporters are too busy trying to make the "news" fit your narrative to understand the anarchy and division it is amplifying here in America. I love you all, and just wish that one day we'll be able to discuss these topics reasonably like educated adults.
Granite_StateNo they probably weren't. News reports state they believe at least one of the shooters to be Syed Farook, who worked for the County Health Department and left the Inland Regional Center shortly before the shooting. He lived in Redlands, CA. He was not a refugee.
You know what's funny? Conservatives are already jumping the terrorism shark. It's insane, just because someone is Muslim and has a name to match it's already considered terrorism. The FBI already stated this could be the result of a workplace dispute, its a fucking day after the shooting and hardly any evidence has been gathered.
The gun control advocates need to chill
Conservatives need to shill
Everyone is jumping to conclusions and making themselves look foolish.
Sounds like a cover up. I'm guessing rouge ISIS refugee
gnartogueAlso the fact that some of you are jumping to conclusions based on the names of these people prove that you really are racist. Because someone has a middle eastern sounding name means it is automatically linked to Islamic extremists? If that's not prejudice I don't know what is...
baethovenGod damn white Christian terrorists are the real threat to America! Oh, they weren't white? It's gun control that's the issue! Watching people deflect and spin this story to fit their political views is sickening. Why do I feel like today's "leaders" feel the need to divide us by race and religion? We need to stand together, not point fingers and spin stories that breed contempt for one another. Perhaps we could have had a proper debate on gun laws, but now that every liberal media source has riled up all the crazy conservatives with their errant reporting of yesterday's tragedy, we'll never be able to have that discussion. You crazy bleeding heart left AND right supporters are too busy trying to make the "news" fit your narrative to understand the anarchy and division it is amplifying here in America. I love you all, and just wish that one day we'll be able to discuss these topics reasonably like educated adults.
I like this comment more than most in this thread. The fanatics on either side are the ones with the loudest voices, and they're the ones spouting the racism or the ridiculous gun control claims. Whatever happened to neutrality, or addressing issues from a wider perspective? Oh that's right, being reasonable doesn't appeal to whatever party a political figure is in, and doesn't appeal to the extremists.
I hope the internet will someday allow us to solve these issues and spread awareness and educate. Right now, forums and message boards group individuals with like-minded ideas ( think of subreddits like /theredpill or /atheism ) and when you get a bunch of people all with the same beleifs together, it devolves into groupthink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink[url] instead of encouraging debate.
nocturnalI stopped there it's about 20% not most what's 20% of 1.5 billion?
Exactly, 1.5 billion is a big number. So how was this surveyed? A representative sample from every Muslim population in the world (some from the U.S, France, some from Syria, Egypt, some from India, Thailand, etc) ? Or just a sample from one social environment ? You can't just poll the Muslims of Qatar and say 20% of the entire Muslim population thinks this or this. Just like I can't poll the Mississippi trailer park and say 90% of Americans are homophobic and racist. So I'm curious about how this number was reached.
baethovenI totally understand you sentiment, but to sit there a pretend that someone who owns and carries around their firearm is going to simply "wave" it around is a pathetic argument. Firing at a gunmen could force them to take cover, this could allow time for potential victims to escape. Notice my use of "could." I'm not stating a fact, simply an educated opinion. Take a page out of my book and realize these issues aren't nearly as black and white as you play them off to be.
Let me put it this way: The U.S have much softer gun laws than France, so in the U.S this past year, how many mass shootings were prevented (or simply 'helped') thanks to an armed citizen? 5? 10? 15? Whatever the number is, we could probably agree that it remains marginal in comparison to the total number of shootings. So my point is, softening the gun laws for a 1% off-chance that an armed citizen could do something isn't going to help if on the other hand it leads to a mass shooting every other day. The cost simply outweighs the potential benefit. That was my point, and why France doesn't want to soften guns laws.
gnartogueAlso the fact that some of you are jumping to conclusions based on the names of these people prove that you really are racist. Because someone has a middle eastern sounding name means it is automatically linked to Islamic extremists? If that's not prejudice I don't know what is...
Oh no, there it is! Racisssst!! Please no, anything but that!
I'm sorry that the truth is so often an inconvenience, it's probably just something those mean "racists" came up.
JUST IN: #SanBernardino suspects were looking at ISIS propaganda online, source tells CBS News https://t.co/VCykxixRWA
Ah you leftists, as if this were an issue of mass shootings, and not one of terrorism.
"The F.B.I. is treating its inquiry into the massacre here as a counter-terrorism investigation, two law enforcement officials said Thursday, based on materials the suspects stockpiled — including explosives — their Middle East travels and evidence that one of them had been in touch with people with Islamist extremist views, both in the United States and abroad."
Also, why don't you leftists just fess up already and admit that you want to ban all guns. California already has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. That gun ban sure helped out the residents of Paris.
"NBC News is reporting that the suspects left a remote-controlled bomb on the scene of the holiday party, similar to that used by the Tsarnaev brothers in the 2013 Boston Marathon bombing. The aim was to kill police and medical personnel. The devices apparently malfunctioned."
Sounds like "workplace violence". Going full-Obama, akin to going full-retard. Those terrorists sure were scared off by that Paris climate conference.
...Yes, there are some crazy fucking hyper radical muslims out there... but look at all the atrocities committed by Christians in the name of god - including the one that just happened at that Planned Parenthood centre in Colorado.
Terrorism has nothing to do with religion when you get down to it...
Religion breeds violence when people already have a violent nature. It gives them some basis for where to justify their fucked up actions. Cherrypick the Koran or the Bible all you want and you'll have thousands of lines that promote violence against others in the name of god... But the overlying message of both is simply: "don't be a dick to each other because nobody wants to suffer".
Dude, you should be aware that Reza Aslan is a fundamentally dishonest individual who will absolutely lie to further his ideological agenda, as he does many, many times in that video.
This has been pointed out numerous times. He has absolutely no credibility. Guy even lied about his own qualifications on a nationally televised broadcast.
We need to be able to have honest discussions about Islam and people who follow the faith without it being labeled as Islamophobia. For sure only a very small percentage of Muslims will turn to terrorism in defense/promotion of their beliefs. But there are MANY Muslims who think that Sharia Law should be the official law of their land, or that apostates should be put to death, or that stoning is an appropriate punishment for adultery, etc.
While turning to terrorism is just a very small percentage, there are many Muslims who, while they do not resort to terrorism, personally believe & support these violent ideas and want them to be implemented. This does have important consequences that echo through their culture and obviously systems of justice that need to be addressed if want to keep valuing human rights, promoting the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. I find it very odd that many liberals (who constantly defend liberal ideas in America) want to defend religions/cultures that seek to take away the very liberal ideas they support.
Cute video of an Islamist apologist you found there. Poor guy just couldn't wait to defend Hamas. The only truthful parts of the video were the parts spoken by Netanyahu. Aslan's examples are absurd. Indonesia? Turkey? Both those places are sliding rapidly into the Islamic abyss. Erdogan is a full on Islamist, with likely ties to the ISIS sale of oil.
You're just so pathetically desperate to protect the poor Islamic faith from criticism that you'll even go so far as to use a term created by CAIR ("Islamosphobe"). CAIR, I might add, is an organization tied to terrorism (Holy Land trial) and listed as a terrorist organization by the UAE.
But keep on using their terms, it shows how oblivious you are, ski bumming clearly hasn't done much for your cognitive abilities.
But it's okay, you still have Reza Aslan to tell you the "correct" way to think.
...Yes, there are some crazy fucking hyper radical muslims out there... but look at all the atrocities committed by Christians in the name of god - including the one that just happened at that Planned Parenthood centre in Colorado.
Terrorism has nothing to do with religion when you get down to it...
Religion breeds violence when people already have a violent nature. It gives them some basis for where to justify their fucked up actions. Cherrypick the Koran or the Bible all you want and you'll have thousands of lines that promote violence against others in the name of god... But the overlying message of both is simply: "don't be a dick to each other because nobody wants to suffer".
We are protesting these bad ideas and how they are spread. I'm not condemning American Muslims for the millions and millions of people who wake up and practice peacefully those are the people we need to push up and make of the Reformers of this religion.
Who honestly made you a mod? I'm fairly sure you're 5 or so years older than I am, but damn near every post I see you make leads me to think otherwise.
This is a list of propositions from Ali Rizvi, who published them at the Huffington Post. It's a remarkable instance of concise, clear thinking. I agree with, or might be persuaded to agree with, all of them.
1. Better gun control is essential to curb gun violence.
2. Islamic jihadism is a dangerous ideology that must be fought.
3. Guns should not be banned or confiscated.
4. Muslims should not be harassed or discriminated against just because they're Muslim.
5. We should aggressively criticize and even satirize the problematic aspects of Islam (the religion), as we would with any other religion or political ideology.
6. Day-to-day gun violence is more deadly than Islamic terrorism right now because it has killed many more people.
7. Islamic terrorism is more deadly than day-to-day gun violence, because if it actually succeeds in its stated goals (such as obtaining weapons of mass destruction as ISIS wants to do), it will kill millions more.
8. Anyone who kills innocents to advance a religious/political agenda is a terrorist -- this could include Muslims, far-right Christian abortion clinic bombers, radical leftists from the 1960s, Jews, Hindus, and atheists.
9. Islamic terrorism is the most deadly form of terrorism in the world today.
10. Anyone who is mentally disturbed or disgruntled and shoots up his school or workplace is a criminal, but is not a terrorist -- even if he's Muslim.
11. All Islamic terrorists are Muslim.
12. The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, and should not have to apologize for the few that are.
13. The few Muslims that do commit terrorist acts do so in complete accordance with a plausible, legitimate interpretation of the Islamic religion.
14. Islamic jihadists are motivated by many legitimate grievances like US foreign policy and the nagging remnants of Western imperialism.
15. Islamic jihadists are motivated by Islamic doctrine, the words of the Quran and hadith, and the promise of an afterlife, eternally, in Paradise.
16. Islamic imperialism (whether the 7th century Arab kind or the Ottoman kind) has done just as much harm (if not more) to the world than Western imperialism.
None of these points contradicts any of the others. All are consistent propositions.
CampeadorCute video of an Islamist apologist you found there. Poor guy just couldn't wait to defend Hamas. The only truthful parts of the video were the parts spoken by Netanyahu. Aslan's examples are absurd. Indonesia? Turkey? Both those places are sliding rapidly into the Islamic abyss. Erdogan is a full on Islamist, with likely ties to the ISIS sale of oil.
You're just so pathetically desperate to protect the poor Islamic faith from criticism that you'll even go so far as to use a term created by CAIR ("Islamosphobe"). CAIR, I might add, is an organization tied to terrorism (Holy Land trial) and listed as a terrorist organization by the UAE.
But keep on using their terms, it shows how oblivious you are, ski bumming clearly hasn't done much for your cognitive abilities.
But it's okay, you still have Reza Aslan to tell you the "correct" way to think.
Lol. Nobody defends Hamas... They're the same radical fucking idiots who wont stop until the Jews are dead and Jerusalem is in full Muslim control that have been around since partition.
They're the same type of fear-mongering fucksticks who are trying to take control of the government in America by inciting a 'common enemy' towards otherwise rational and tolerant people... You know, similar to folks you probably would vote for... Basically utilizing Hitler style scare tactics.
Lets just use Yoda's quote to illustrate what i'm talking about.
"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to the dark side the Dark side leads to suffering."
Erdogan is an issue, but that doesn't change the fact that Turkey is secular in nature. I mean, we had christian presidents who have given weapons and propped up horrible dictators for years in the name of cheap resources... But I wouldn't go ahead and say that the USA is all of a sudden full on christian theocracy or anything.
I'm not defending islam as much as I'm pointing the finger in the right direction. Islam, Christianity, Religion itself isn't the problem... it's people who strive for control, wealth, and power and utilize whatever fucked up means necessary in order to succeed in their disgusting goals.
DingoSeanIslam, Christianity, Religion itself isn't the problem... it's people who strive for control, wealth, and power and utilize whatever fucked up means necessary in order to succeed in their disgusting goals.
This is entirely, without question, one hundred percent wrong. Religion isn't the entirety of the problem, but it's an incredibly significant part. A significant number of people truly, honestly believe that paradise exists, that martyrdom is the best way to get there, and that jihad is the best path to martyrdom. Denying the role of religious belief is utterly farcical.
But this is the wrong context to be having this discussion. There is no evidence, as of now, that these shooters were religiously motivated.
J.D.This is entirely, without question, one hundred percent wrong. Religion isn't the entirety of the problem, but it's an incredibly significant part. A significant number of people truly, honestly believe that paradise exists, that martyrdom is the best way to get there, and that jihad is the best path to martyrdom. Denying the role of religious belief is utterly farcical.
But this is the wrong context to be having this discussion. There is no evidence, as of now, that these shooters were religiously motivated.
What I said was it IN ITSELF isn't the problem.
Of course there's a shitload of issues with radical ideology... I mean no shit... but religion on it's lonesome does not breed 'jihad'.
DingoSeanLol. Nobody defends Hamas... They're the same radical fucking idiots who wont stop until the Jews are dead and Jerusalem is in full Muslim control that have been around since partition.
I'm not defending islam as much as I'm pointing the finger in the right direction. Islam, Christianity, Religion itself isn't the problem... it's people who strive for control, wealth, and power and utilize whatever fucked up means necessary in order to succeed in their disgusting goals.
Again, you may not even realize it, but you are apologizing for the political nature of Islam.
Also, Reza Aslan clearly was defending Hamas. You yourself just admitted that they are genocidal Islamic terrorists, which sounds like ISIS. Reza Aslan lends legitimacy to Hamas, the same way John Kerry lent some legitimacy to the Islamist attacks against Charlie Hebdo and the Jewish supermarket, while commenting on the recent Paris attacks.
The Islamic terrorist organizations are simply the assault wings for the the tens (if not hundreds) of millions of Muslims who believe in Sharia and the promulgation of Sharia. Unless we condemn and fight all those who push any form of Sharia, this problem will only get worse and more widespread. At minimum, we must eliminate all forms of Sharia from the West, since pushing or practicing Sharia in any Western country should be considered treason. The Salafists are a good place to start.
DingoSeanWhat I said was it IN ITSELF isn't the problem.
Of course there's a shitload of issues with radical ideology... I mean no shit... but religion on it's lonesome does not breed 'jihad'.
Jihad is an explicitly religious term. Without the religion, there is no jihad. There is surely violence, but this particular brand of suicidal, death-cult like behaviour is sourced in religious scripture. Are there other causes intermingled here? Of course, nothing is so simple as to be sourced to one cause. But religion is a key ingredient in this behaviour and impacts how we can address this.
For example, if someone is convinced that martyring himself is the true path to paradise, how can that person be deterred? I think someone in one of these threads said that the thing to do is show what we do to terrorists, implying that they should be killed. But this assumes rational self-preservation as a motive, and in many cases, that motive does not exist. You can read accounts of jihadi soldiers kneeling beside their fallen brothers in arms, and weeping, and then explaining that those aren't tears of sadness but tears of envy, because the dead are now in paradise.
The left really needs to get its head out of its ass because the people most affected by this violent, right wing religious ideology are the minorities in muslim-majority countries - women, gays, and atheists. If you want to call yourself a liberal, you absolutely must stand up for those people in the face of oppression that is explicitly based on religious justifications.
