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californiagrownReally? When is the last time you donated money to charities helping people survive in 3rd world countries?
Cause for most religious folks that's weekly.
You are an angry young person looking to rebel and prove your intelligence and independence.
It'll take some time, but you will gain perspective on religion and realize you were an ignorant angsty douche in your younger years.
Humans will always struggle for more power, more money, more land. Religion just happens to be a vehicle through which morally corrupt leaders steal scripture and push their own agendas. That's not religion, that's morally bankrupt leaders taking advantage of people. That will always happen, regardless of religion.
NikolausThere is so much wrong with everything you just said but I don't want to start a long argument.
californiagrownThat is what "offering" is used for- upkeep of the church facilities and money for the various humanitarian causes supported by the church. Ya know, those collection plates that get passed around?http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyDh-hE2OLvM&ved=0CCUQtwIwA2oVChMIiL_ak47xxgIVSxw-Ch3H8w_j&usg=AFQjCNGzvnbZlkIf0B3O8ym3LNIbCy2BZQ&sig2=y_C_lXht9Zk15XOzf0Zhyw as usual you have no idea what you are talking about when some churches and people get money tax free.
And I define religious people as the 52 times a year people haha
nocturnalhttp://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyDh-hE2OLvM&ved=0CCUQtwIwA2oVChMIiL_ak47xxgIVSxw-Ch3H8w_j&usg=AFQjCNGzvnbZlkIf0B3O8ym3LNIbCy2BZQ&sig2=y_C_lXht9Zk15XOzf0Zhyw as usual you have no idea what you are talking about when some churches and people get money tax free.https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/776751/New-Reality-Show-About-Rich-Pastors
milk_manI can assure you that I am not.. lol
milk_man"There is no absolute truth." I don't think he knows what he's talking about.. At all.. There IS absolute truth, and that is God and his Word.
Truth is not relative. Science is relative. Science is not "truth." Science is observation. Quantum physics is 'proving' that what we see may not actually be what we see. So in a way science is tearing itself apart, because quantum physics is starting to say that even the stuff we observe and know as fact could be completely different..
inb4 "milkman you are the last one to talk about science and quantum physics"
nocturnalYou exist therefore you are, that is the one absolute true in this world.
nocturnalhttp://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyDh-hE2OLvM&ved=0CCUQtwIwA2oVChMIiL_ak47xxgIVSxw-Ch3H8w_j&usg=AFQjCNGzvnbZlkIf0B3O8ym3LNIbCy2BZQ&sig2=y_C_lXht9Zk15XOzf0Zhyw as usual you have no idea what you are talking about when some churches and people get money tax free.
onenerdykidThat's merely an analytic truth (tautology) in that your subject has the same exact meaning as the predicate. "You exist therefore you are" is the same thing as saying "you exist therefore you exist". It's also called an identity statement because you are just saying the same thing twice.
You might be trying to say "I think, therefore I exist" as this was Descartes' primary and absolute truth.
californiagrownWay to cherry pick. If that's what you have to rely on, you might want to rethink your argument...
onenerdykidThat's merely an analytic truth (tautology) in that your subject has the same exact meaning as the predicate. "You exist therefore you are" is the same thing as saying "you exist therefore you exist".
nocturnalhttps://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/776751/New-Reality-Show-About-Rich-Pastors
onenerdykidThat's merely an analytic truth (tautology) in that your subject has the same exact meaning as the predicate. "You exist therefore you are" is the same thing as saying "you exist therefore you exist". It's also called an identity statement because you are just saying the same thing twice.
You might be trying to say "I think, therefore I exist" as this was Descartes' primary and absolute truth.
DlCKGive, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
nocturnalSo you're saying those people that gave away 65 million dollars, so their pastor could buy a jet got back more money by giving away 65 million?
DlCKna god gave the pastor a bentley for being so helpful. If you slap 1000 people in the forehead with gods love you get a bentley, are they not teaching this in schools?!?!
nocturnalThat's four examples and yes it's on the extreme side, but you're joking yourself if you think other people don't skin money off the top of an unregulated untax charitable donation. There was a pastor who recently bought a 65 million dollar jet through his church the Vatican has a bank account with billions of dollars in it.
Just look at Scientology another "extreme" example of religious money.
californiagrownI'm sorry that the very small minority have biased you so much.
Those are cherry picked examples.
nocturnalSo are yours I don't here about too many churches that have given money to any of the non profits I've worked for. Do some churches give 100% of their donations away I'm sure they do. But most churches go on trips have paste that live in a house bought by the church. And 1,000,000,000's stored away by a major religion can't just be swept under the rug by your comment
californiagrownWhat charities and non profits have you worked for? In what role?
The fact you think that a charity or a church can give away 100% of donations makes me think you have never actually worked at a charity or non profit.
There are things called operating costs lol.
nocturnalFor church that has to live on property tax free there really isn't much upkeep my old church constantly would have renovations and extensions put on though so i guess thats "up keep" I think the most expensive thing my church used to spend its money on was trips for the youth group, and probably a few events they hosted there. I know however the pastor bought a house and was taking a salary from the church. In my position at nonprofits donsent matter what does matter is I know most of the donations come from individual people and local drives ran by school not from religious organizations. And what I do know is we would be better off if churches started to get taxed instead of keeping money for tax free.
My local Red Cross and Boys and Girls Club and food drives (the way a local church would help out with the food drive was they would mainly send people to help pack. every now and again they would give us some money, but it never really was that much. ShopRite was our main contributor and without our local shop right most of the food drives would have shut down.)
So do churches donate some of their earnings, yes they absolutely do. But you're joking yourself if you think if we got rid of all religious organizations today, all non profits would crumble because that's where the majority of big donations come from. All you would have is a lot of pastors who no longer take a salary and have to get a real job. And the world would probally be in a better place.
nocturnalFor church that has to live on property tax free there really isn't much upkeep my old church constantly would have renovations and extensions put on though so i guess thats "up keep" I think the most expensive thing my church used to spend its money on was trips for the youth group, and probably a few events they hosted there. I know however the pastor bought a house and was taking a salary from the church. In my position at nonprofits donsent matter what does matter is I know most of the donations come from individual people and local drives ran by school not from religious organizations. And what I do know is we would be better off if churches started to get taxed instead of keeping money for tax free.
My local Red Cross and Boys and Girls Club and food drives (the way a local church would help out with the food drive was they would mainly send people to help pack. every now and again they would give us some money, but it never really was that much. ShopRite was our main contributor and without our local shop right most of the food drives would have shut down.)
So do churches donate some of their earnings, yes they absolutely do. But you're joking yourself if you think if we got rid of all religious organizations today, all non profits would crumble because that's where the majority of big donations come from. All you would have is a lot of pastors who no longer take a salary and have to get a real job. And the world would probally be in a better place.
saskskierYou realize that churches aren't the only non-profits that have employees who take a salary, right? Why shouldn't a church pay it's pastor and secretary and caretaker if they work there full time?
While there are crappy, selfish people who operate out of the church, there are tons of people within the church (and other religious organizations) who put money and volunteers both into the local community (homeless shelters, orphanages/child care facilities, food banks, etc) and internationally (disaster relief, community development such as hospitals and schools and wells, etc).
nocturnalBecause those nonprofits you speak of that take salary get regulated by the irs, under non-profit codes. My friend used to work for an autism non-profit that recently got shut down because the president of the company was taking a $600,000 yearly salary. Guess what happens when those people misuse the funds they go to jail. Now guess what happens when a church miss uses the funds? Nothing, because they they are unregulated, thank you for supporting my point.
californiagrownSo you have extremely limited experience but are making wide ranging generalizations.
Good for you.
nocturnalYou're doing the same thing, post up any proof where the fuck are you getting that religious people donate and churches donate substantial amount of money 52 times a year to non profits every year. Most of it is spent on the church and things they don't need which is why most churches are built like castles, and constantly getting renovations. I went to 3 different churches growing up worked for 2 of them, and worked for more than five nonprofits over my lifetime. I have way more experience and validity than you do in your empty statements that religion is good because they donate money, and therefore they shouldn't be regulated.
nocturnalYou're doing the same thing, post up any proof where the fuck are you getting that religious people donate and churches donate substantial amount of money 52 times a year to non profits every year. Most of it is spent on the church and things they don't need which is why most churches are built like castles, and constantly getting renovations. I went to 3 different churches growing up worked for 2 of them, and worked for more than five nonprofits over my lifetime. I have way more experience and validity than you do in your empty statements that religion is good because they donate money, and therefore they shouldn't be regulated.
saskskierWhy do you keep talking as if all of the money donated to a church should be going to a different non-profit. That's like saying UNICEF should be using the money donated to them to donate to the Red Cross or something like that.
Why do you give the church a hard time for things like building maintenance and renovations, but not other non-profits, which also have the same issues (like any organization that has a building they work out of). Why don't you give other non-profits for ceo's taking huge salaries (i.e. - American Cancer Society - $2.1 mil, Boys and Girls Club - $1.8 mil, etc) a hard time? Corruption and greed and unnecessarily large salaries exist everywhere and the church is not immune to this.
Yes, there are pastor's out there that take far bigger salaries than that and those that support them, but I would there are likely a far larger group of church goers who are not okay with that. There are far more pastors out there that take modest salary (they have families too) and there are lots that just scrape by.
californiagrownwhat were these positions you held that allowed you to see the financials and inner workings of each organization?
Please, do tell!
nocturnalPeople from non profits go to jail for misusing fawns all the time my point is church money should be regulated which its not and that's an issue one that you're not addressing.
Why don't you give me the proof that I asked for my last post instead of just trying to personally insult me. Sounds like you've never worked for a nonprofit volunteer or ever worked for a church. Still waiting for you to post up some proof of your claims that we all know are bullshit.
nocturnalPeople from non profits go to jail for misusing fawns all the time my point is church money should be regulated which its not and that's an issue one that you're not addressing.
californiagrownHahaha you want pay stubs? Are you actually serious, lol.
I have worked with the finances at 3 separate churches and 2 charities. I additionally know executives at 2 other charities very well and have had drunk convos with them about the inner workings of those charities.
Regulation seems to deter corruption about as well as church self discipline, huh? Regulation won't solve anything.
nocturnalI'm related to Peter Lewis you should probably look up who is and the charitable organizations that he used to run. And good point regulation won't do anything so lets just throw it all out the window and not solve the problem. I think we're both on the same sides by saying as much money as possible should be going to these nonprofits.
californiagrownWhat does being related have to do with anything? I know I don't talk about work at thanksgiving or Xmas haha.
And fwiw, I still give money to, and volunteer with my parents church... And I've been athiest for 10 years. I give money directly to charities as well, but the most charitable people I know are folks who are involved in a church. I want to support that, and that charitable behavior.
LonelyYou sound like a good knowledgeable person!
californiagrownWhat does being related have to do with anything? I know I don't talk about work at thanksgiving or Xmas haha.
And fwiw, I still give money to, and volunteer with my parents church... And I've been athiest for 10 years. I give money directly to charities as well, but the most charitable people I know are folks who are involved in a church. I want to support that, and that charitable behavior.
LonelyYou sound like a good knowledgeable person!
nocturnalWhat does having a family member who started, not donated or worked for, actually started, multiple charities have to do with anything? Are you serious after he passed away he gave over 800 million dollars to charity. But I'm sure you know more than me because you volunteer at a church. I also find most good-hearted charitable people don't go around talking about the money they donate. So that great the people at your church boast about money they give.
nocturnalWhat does having a family member who started, not donated or worked for, actually started, multiple charities have to do with anything? Are you serious after he passed away he gave over 800 million dollars to charity. But I'm sure you know more than me because you volunteer at a church. I also find most good-hearted charitable people don't go around talking about the money they donate. So that great the people at your church boast about money they give.
californiagrownAlso, you sound like a rich kid.
californiagrownI have worked with the finances at 3 separate churches and 2 charities. I additionally know executives at 2 other charities very well and have had drunk convos with them about the inner workings of those charities.
LonelyFirst off I call bs on this. Really vague. And I guess since they were drunk these "exuctives" know everything and you are above us with your knowledge. What charities pray tell?
californiagrownI have helped audit quarterly expenditures for 3 separate churches, yes.
Generally, when drunk your inhibitions are lowered and you are a bit more forthcoming than normal.
And no, I will not be naming names.
nocturnalWhat has this conversation turned into? All I said was the church should be more regulated and taxed.
You then turn this into a whose dick is bigger game bla bla bla assumption assumption assumption, and now I don't even know why you are posting anymore. Churches are not the same as non profits all religion from Christianity to Scientology should pay taxes.
nocturnalWhat has this conversation turned into? All I said was the church should be more regulated and taxed.
You then turn this into a whose dick is bigger game bla bla bla assumption assumption assumption, and now I don't even know why you are posting anymore. Churches are not the same as non profits all religion from Christianity to Scientology should pay taxes.
saskskierHow are they different from other non profits if they use the money that comes in (beyond overhead expenses, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER NON PROFIT) to help individuals, families or things like food banks, shelters, etc in their community or other international projects such as building schools, hospitals and clean water projects?
saskskierHow are they different from other non profits if they use the money that comes in (beyond overhead expenses, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER NON PROFIT) to help individuals, families or things like food banks, shelters, etc in their community or other international projects such as building schools, hospitals and clean water projects?
nocturnalBecause not 100% of religon and the people who follow them do that. If a church donates enough then they can get it deducted off there taxes. There's a reason sinctology and the Catholic Church have 1,000,000,000's with a B in their bank acounts it's not because they donate it all. And if thats what they want to do then they can make a charity not make them the charity. Why do churches in my town have to not pay taxes that could benafit me and my town?
WattsNon-profits aren't connected with any kind of religious denomination. Churches generally are. Many non-profits exist under some larger, government affiliated organization, or receive some sort of government funding.
And the primary function of a church isn't to do some sort of good for the community, while non-profits exist to do this and only this.
Not to mention the fact that not all churches are even charitable.
GrabsForFunBibles in schools are a bad idea, period. There are good parts (there were bound to be a few) but most of it is superstitious crap with little to no basis in reality, along with philosofies that have aged poorly at best and are outright immoral at worst. Even the main tenet of Christianity is horrible when you think about it. I'm refering to vicarious redemption, which is essentially scapegoating.
If kids are indoctrinated from a young age and actually take even some of the rubbish in that overrated book seriously then that is a huge problem.
GrabsForFunBibles in schools are a bad idea, period. There are good parts (there were bound to be a few) but most of it is superstitious crap with little to no basis in reality, along with philosofies that have aged poorly at best and are outright immoral at worst. Even the main tenet of Christianity is horrible when you think about it. I'm refering to vicarious redemption, which is essentially scapegoating.
If kids are indoctrinated from a young age and actually take even some of the rubbish in that overrated book seriously then that is a huge problem.
DlCKChristianity is responsible for the morality of almost all of western civilization as we know it. The way you act in public and how you treat others is a result of christian morality whether you believe in the bible or not.
