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March, 2024

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How do tech (pin) bindings not pop out?

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50Kal
Posts: 2826 - Karma: 5,367
Like the title says, how in the hell, when dropping cliffs or skiing deep heavy pow do tech bindings stay in better that frame bindings?
Witchcraft? Sorcery?
Please informe the non believers.
Dec 26 2014 11:21PM
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Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
'Better' isn't a good word to use. The toe pins are on a spring system that isn't din certified. You can come out of them if they aren't locked, sometime really easy depending on which model you have, with the right kind of force - usually lateral. When they are locked though, your in there - for good or bad. Locking them out prevents the toe spring to move, licking the boot in the pins.

When I hit drops with tech bindings sometimes my heals come out and I end up stomping down on the binding to go back in while still skinng. It's weird for sure, but such is life.

Tech bindings are in no way designed and suited for hucking. People such as myself that use them in such terrain are gambling to a point because the odds of breaking the heal is a lot higher than with din bindings.
Dec 26 2014 11:52PM
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percs
Posts: 2223 - Karma: 5,793
AT bindings these days like the marker f10 are only three pounds a pair.
Dec 27 2014 12:09AM
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GrahamGould
Posts: 713 - Karma: 2,439
They don't hold better than framed bindings. They will release much easier than any framed binding on the same release setting. People who ski with good form won't have too many issues with them, but dropping cliffs is not something I would recamend with tech bindings. I've double ejected on too many landings to try it again.
Dec 27 2014 12:49AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
What should be noted is that the last 2 years' offerings, with the Vipec, Beast and Kingpin, might change the notion that it's generally not a good idea to jump off of stuff with tech bindings. By all accounts the Beast is basically an alpine clamp in this regard; the other two still need more reporting back from the field.
Dec 27 2014 1:37PM
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Substitute
Posts: 1375 - Karma: 2,270
Tldr-

Frame bindings will be able to hold up to drops, moguls and other larger hits than a tech binding.

Tech bindings weigh nothing and are awesome for most touring situations.
Dec 27 2014 1:56PM
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schism
Posts: 1705 - Karma: 389
J.D.What should be noted is that the last 2 years' offerings, with the Vipec, Beast and Kingpin, might change the notion that it's generally not a good idea to jump off of stuff with tech bindings. By all accounts the Beast is basically an alpine clamp in this regard; the other two still need more reporting back from the field.


I have the vipecs. I actually use them for teaching skiing as well as touring. The toe piece is fantastic, it can be a total pain in the ass to get the toes in, but other than that they're great. I've only had them pop out once when they shouldn't have but that was more of the heel piece not being the greatest. I'll do a full blown review after a few more days touring and the christmas rush ends.
Dec 28 2014 8:27AM
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_steffen_
Posts: 903 - Karma: 124
Would love more info here. Im looking at proform on the beasts but would love to save some money and go to the vipec's or rad ft's if at all possible. Gonna be touring quite a bit, but not trying to change my skiing style to suit a weaker binding.
Dec 29 2014 7:13PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
I've taken radicals to well over 30ft drops. always ski them locked out.

radical toe is plenty strong. marker kingpin looks interesting. be nice if it had the radical 'power towers.' but we will see.
Dec 29 2014 7:34PM
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Blunto
Posts: 8 - Karma: 23
cobra_commanderI've taken radicals to well over 30ft drops. always ski them locked out.

radical toe is plenty strong. marker kingpin looks interesting. be nice if it had the radical 'power towers.' but we will see.


yeah I am on FT's and they hold up pretty well when locked out however before I turned the din all the way up the heel would sometimes release when I was trying nosebutters, but lets be real these bindings were never intended to do such things but it does
Dec 29 2014 9:18PM
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Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
Bluntoyeah I am on FT's and they hold up pretty well when locked out however before I turned the din all the way up the heel would sometimes release when I was trying nosebutters, but lets be real these bindings were never intended to do such things but it does


nose butters on tech bindings. ha. awesome. I refuse to spin at all when using my tech set up. good way to brake your shit if you ask me.
Dec 30 2014 2:09AM
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Blunto
Posts: 8 - Karma: 23
Drailnose butters on tech bindings. ha. awesome. I refuse to spin at all when using my tech set up. good way to brake your shit if you ask me.



Yeah no fucks given here plus being a Ski-tech means I have access to a lot of left over stuff and get to do fun things like t-nut my quiver killer setup
Dec 30 2014 1:08PM
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Hugh_Conway_jr
Posts: 746 - Karma: 467
I also ate shit doing a nose press on pins the other day... but that's what I get for riding them on the resort like a regular binding.

That being said, you can huck on pins. I have double ejected from frame bindings more times than I have bite it on pins, after dropping cliffs.

There are lots of robust low tech offerings out there. the advancements in their construction and materials have been amazing in the last few years.

In all fairness, I am just straight hucking. no spins, no flips. But I still think its unfair to say that pins don't huck.
Jan 1 2015 7:46AM
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PhotoGraphic
Posts: 241 - Karma: 477
Plums in general tend to blow up hucking,anything with steel pins hold up pretty well
Jan 3 2015 1:15AM
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Ghini
Posts: 2230 - Karma: 2,883
PhotoGraphicPlums in general tend to blow up hucking,anything with steel pins hold up pretty well


This is not true. Yes they had issues with the silver toe wings. The blacks dont have problems. Those few problems that are shared on forums but doesnt make it right to say 'Plums in general tend to blow up hucking'.
Jan 3 2015 5:04AM
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fragglemuffin
Posts: 3312 - Karma: 444
Yep, I ski 90% of the time on my bibby's with the black-wing Plum Guides and have not had any durability issues. I did, however, keep pre-releasing on anything over a couple feet, even after making sure the pins were seated well in ski mode, so I lock them on damn near everything now. I've actually released twice with the toes locked and those were the only two times that my fall justified a release. I'm happy as a clam with them.
Feb 12 2015 11:50PM
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Ghini
Posts: 2230 - Karma: 2,883
fragglemuffinYep, I ski 90% of the time on my bibby's with the black-wing Plum Guides and have not had any durability issues. I did, however, keep pre-releasing on anything over a couple feet, even after making sure the pins were seated well in ski mode, so I lock them on damn near everything now. I've actually released twice with the toes locked and those were the only two times that my fall justified a release. I'm happy as a clam with them.


What boots are you using with them?
Feb 13 2015 3:30AM
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PoLaRpEaK
Posts: 439 - Karma: 555
Bluntoyeah I am on FT's and they hold up pretty well when locked out however before I turned the din all the way up the heel would sometimes release when I was trying nosebutters, but lets be real these bindings were never intended to do such things but it does


You can nose butter on FT's?!?! I never would have dreamed of trying this, I'm hesitant when I huck a 15 footer haha. Will have to push them harder I see.
Feb 13 2015 3:56PM
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fragglemuffin
Posts: 3312 - Karma: 444
CamembertWhat boots are you using with them?


Salomon Quest Pros with tech fittings (which might explain my pre-release issues). I'm currently saving for Dynafit TLT6's.
Feb 13 2015 5:59PM
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Ghini
Posts: 2230 - Karma: 2,883
fragglemuffinSalomon Quest Pros with tech fittings (which might explain my pre-release issues). I'm currently saving for Dynafit TLT6's.


It might. I have never pre released and shred the f*ck out of them in all conditions. Plum toes are really solid so it shouldnt happen. No visual damage?
Feb 14 2015 8:05AM
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fragglemuffin
Posts: 3312 - Karma: 444
CamembertIt might. I have never pre released and shred the f*ck out of them in all conditions. Plum toes are really solid so it shouldnt happen. No visual damage?


No damage at all - I've been real diligent about checking for anything odd, especially on the Salomon Tech Soles because of their rough history but everything looks great. My guess is that the Salomon soles are a mil or two wider than that of real tech-specific boots and its causing the pins to not completely engage. I won't be certain until I try some dynafits, scarpas, etc though.
Feb 15 2015 4:52PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,086
With locked out toes, you can do quite a lot. Flips, spins, the works. Obviously not the best idea ever, but totally possible.
Feb 17 2015 12:38AM
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cydwhit
Posts: 5065 - Karma: 42,823
LiteratureWith locked out toes, you can do quite a lot. Flips, spins, the works. Obviously not the best idea ever, but totally possible.


I seem to remember a four out of a pole jam in tech bindings....
Feb 17 2015 1:17AM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,086
cydwhitI seem to remember a four out of a pole jam in tech bindings....


Haha, that's a lot of credit where it wasn't entirely due--I did hit the money booter on my tech setup, but that pole jam was with my Quadrants jammed into Jester demos, which I personally consider sketchier.
Feb 17 2015 10:30AM
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ShredMasterPlus
Posts: 1159 - Karma: 807
If you take your skis off when transitioning from Tour to Ski Mode, when you click back in before going into ski mode move your ski boot a bunch to rotate the pins in the holes to grind out any snow and ice buildup that may have amounted during the transition. Better yet learn to transition without taking your skis off and save time and remove the risk of getting snow and ice buildup in the toes.

I have sent several cliffs and pillows this season on my Dynafit Speed Radicals and have had very few issues. I tend to leave the toe's unlocked unless I'm really worried about losing a ski. Funny thing is I'll hit big cliffs and be fine but Have had the heel release off of a tiny 3-4 foot drop. Obviously they aren't the perfect setup but for how much more efficient and nice they are to tour with compared to shitty ol dukes I think its worth the tradeoff.

No Spins or Flips for me on them and If I'm taking them into the slack I usually stay in more mellow terrain and try and avoid to much hardpack just to avoid durability issues.
Feb 22 2015 11:41AM
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rach
Posts: 917 - Karma: 507
cobra_commanderI've taken radicals to well over 30ft drops. always ski them locked out.

radical toe is plenty strong. marker kingpin looks interesting. be nice if it had the radical 'power towers.' but we will see.


Was this back when you used to ski?
Feb 26 2015 4:41AM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,682
rachWas this back when you used to ski?


Yes. And before you stole all our snow and took it to Japan. Get back here and bring the snow back with you!
Feb 26 2015 10:56AM
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Sklar
Posts: 8863 - Karma: 31,577
I had my first dynafit pre releases yesterday

I kind of feel like they shouldn't have happened? Both instances were when I hit dips/compressions, but neither were really that big
Mar 1 2015 1:42PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,086
SklarI had my first dynafit pre releases yesterday

I kind of feel like they shouldn't have happened? Both instances were when I hit dips/compressions, but neither were really that big


Depending on the binding, I feel like a lot of Dynafit prerelease issues are related to maxing out the travel on the pins when a ski flexes. Because there's no fore-aft movement in the heel piece of the Radical or Vertical series (YET), you only have that little gap behind your boot to absorb all the compression and movement of the ski flexing. Even less if it's improperly adjusted.

I'd really like to see a head to head test between tech bindings with some travel in the heel and those without. Could be way interesting.
Mar 1 2015 11:29PM
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Sklar
Posts: 8863 - Karma: 31,577
LiteratureDepending on the binding, I feel like a lot of Dynafit prerelease issues are related to maxing out the travel on the pins when a ski flexes. Because there's no fore-aft movement in the heel piece of the Radical or Vertical series (YET), you only have that little gap behind your boot to absorb all the compression and movement of the ski flexing. Even less if it's improperly adjusted.

I'd really like to see a head to head test between tech bindings with some travel in the heel and those without. Could be way interesting.


I have radical ST's
Mar 1 2015 11:38PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,086
^Yep. Those are part of it.

When a ski flexes, the distance between the bindings changes, because it's a straight line in the arc of the flexed ski. To compensate, downhill bindings have forward pressure, and Dynafit pins slide in and out of the place they rest in the heel of your boot. However, if the flex is strong enough, the pins run out of room, the heel housing bottoms out against your boot, and the force hits toe pins to cause a prerelease or bends the heel post (happened to me recently).
Mar 1 2015 11:57PM
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Blunto
Posts: 8 - Karma: 23
PoLaRpEaKYou can nose butter on FT's?!?! I never would have dreamed of trying this, I'm hesitant when I huck a 15 footer haha. Will have to push them harder I see.


not gonna lie I do run the toes locked out and the heel's din cranked to 12... I also replace and regrease the thimble bushing ever season as it gets beat on pretty bad from butter tricks... If you just leave it you get the dynafiddle heel play pretty bad
Mar 4 2015 1:14PM
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Dirty.Harry.
Posts: 1779 - Karma: 351
GrahamGouldThey don't hold better than framed bindings. They will release much easier than any framed binding on the same release setting. People who ski with good form won't have too many issues with them, but dropping cliffs is not something I would recamend with tech bindings. I've double ejected on too many landings to try it again.

They will hold better than framed bindings with the toes locked, but that's not always the best idea. Without the toes locked, they hold the boot less consistently than any framed or alpine binding, but 'better' isn't the word I would use to compare framed bindings to tech ones. That said, tech bindings are not intended to be pounded on moguls or hardpack and subjecting them to such conditions can produce undesirable results (prereleasing, e.g.).


ShredMasterPlusIf you take your skis off when transitioning from Tour to Ski Mode, when you click back in before going into ski mode move your ski boot a bunch to rotate the pins in the holes to grind out any snow and ice buildup that may have amounted during the transition. Better yet learn to transition without taking your skis off and save time and remove the risk of getting snow and ice buildup in the toes.

I have sent several cliffs and pillows this season on my Dynafit Speed Radicals and have had very few issues. I tend to leave the toe's unlocked unless I'm really worried about losing a ski. Funny thing is I'll hit big cliffs and be fine but Have had the heel release off of a tiny 3-4 foot drop. Obviously they aren't the perfect setup but for how much more efficient and nice they are to tour with compared to shitty ol dukes I think its worth the tradeoff.

It is much better to learn how to rip skins without removing your skis altogether, I agree. It's both faster and more efficient. My usual skiing group and I are pretty quick at transitioning for that reason. Tech bindings are so much more efficient for skinning than framed bindings it's almost laughable. On the way down, I don't have any questions about durability and ski as I normally would, although I do lock the toes most times but do not recommend others to do so. It's a personal choice for everybody to make on their own, but remember that locking the toes essentially makes your knee the release point.
LiteratureWhen a ski flexes, the distance between the bindings changes, because it's a straight line in the arc of the flexed ski. To compensate, downhill bindings have forward pressure, and Dynafit pins slide in and out of the place they rest in the heel of your boot. However, if the flex is strong enough, the pins run out of room, the heel housing bottoms out against your boot, and the force hits toe pins to cause a prerelease or bends the heel post (happened to me recently).

This is a great explanation, and the problem can be mitigated (not necessarily eliminated) by choosing a stiffer ski. Tech bindings are not designed with noodley powder boards in mind (CRJs, for example). I have ON3P Jeffrey Tours and Caylors with Radicals on them but wouldn't go much softer than that.
Mar 10 2015 10:01AM
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