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Having a moral dilemma

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Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
Ok, so I'm sitting here trying to decide which direction I should go in life. Currently working silviculture 7 months a year and skiing the winter away, but I want a change. The "easy" out is to get into a trade and go work in fort Mac, making $6000/paycheque give or take (most likely give). For years I just said it wasn't an option due to my idealistic thoughts about life, the environment, and our social responsibility to 'be green'.

After some interesting conversations with friends and thinking about the big picture, and the small I'm starting to think the mentality of "never work the oil industry" might be just as hypocritical as bashing the industry while depending on said industry for every aspect of my day to day life. Obviously, going off the grid and becoming fully sustainable is not an option (and if you think it is than you best get off the Internet you dirty hippy) so it raises the question.

Curious what your guys opinion on the subject is. Is it worth signing my soul away to the devil for monetary gain, and if not, why? At what point does it turn from "if you can't beat em, join them" to being the them that you (I) have been so blindly against for so long.
Apr 10 2014 8:01PM
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Mr.LemonPie
Posts: 4100 - Karma: 1,625
I don't know what you would be doing, but my friend just got a job for Halliburton and absolutely hates it. Says they treat you like shit and it's hard work. He's getting paid shitloads but is definitely not a fan.
Apr 10 2014 8:06PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51260 - Karma: 157,382
I mean there are lots of worst things you could be doing. A lot of people that are "outraged" by things are hypocritical assholes anyway.


Way the pros and the cons against your personal beliefs and see where that get's you. If you aren't feeling it you can always make another change.

Hopefully you're happy with the decision in the end
Apr 10 2014 8:07PM
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Rusticles
Posts: 2178 - Karma: 1,333
I think I was in a similar point about 8 years ago at the age of 23. While I was not skiing the entire winter away I was definitely quiting jobs in the trades (had just gotten my electrical ticket) during the winter so I could ski for a month at a time. However I took a slightly different path and went back to college mostly so I could ski more without fucking myself completely career wise. Spent 60 days at lake louise each year and had a fucking blast. Finished college and said Okay time to work hard and achieve. I am now over 30 and looking back I wish I would have done it differently.

I have realized I could have worked my ass off in the summers and fall and made a normal persons salary (or more) and still take the winters off. Life is too short to not do what love and we are in a unique situation where it's possible to do that without being poor your whole life.

As for the hating on oil companies, I'll comment later I'm just leaving work.
Apr 10 2014 8:27PM
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timmi
Posts: 12874 - Karma: 3,460
I've really battled with the idea of working up in fort mac. My buddy does it and makes an absolute killing. He could get me up there in a non labor intensive job. My issue with it is I'm not willing to spend the best years of my life (mid 20's) up in northern canada hating my life. I am living in the toronto area now and I am not making amazing money but I'm getting by, but I'm almost certain I'm happier than I would be up there.
Apr 10 2014 8:42PM
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Turd.Ferguson
Posts: 1437 - Karma: 2,713
in the world we live in "green" is not an option and if you dont take the job than someone else will
Apr 10 2014 8:49PM
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Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
For context. I'm 29 and have been living the ski bum lifestyle for 12 years now. I like to thing about stuff, and look at everything multi leveled - so naturally, I over think almost everything I do.
Apr 10 2014 8:53PM
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Rusticles
Posts: 2178 - Karma: 1,333
As for the oil industry, Try and imagine your life without oil. Try and imagine 7billion peoples lives without oil, can we cut back? Yes, and that is the consumers fault. Can we live without it? No or not easily. Oil companies in Canada are held to some of the highest environmental standards in the world. I know a lot of "green" people just think that it's just rape and pillage, oil spilt everywhere, no regard for the environment. If they spill a bucket of oil, they have a pump truck at $300 an hour come and clean it up. They spend hundreds of thousands of dollars analyzing and measuring their emissions and are fined heavily for going over. Honestly Oil is going to be around wether we like it or not, and the cleanest safest place to get it is canada
Apr 10 2014 9:01PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Dude talk to Logan Imlach. He should have some advice on this one.
Apr 10 2014 9:31PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
I'll also add that hating your job really sucks. If you can use the job as a stepping stone to a further goal then fine, fuck it do it. As horrible as that shit is, its coming out of the ground until we actually change our energy source.

But man... hating your job is awful. It really is. I'm not sure if any amount of money can repair the hole in the soul.
Apr 10 2014 9:32PM
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broto
Posts: 9039 - Karma: 25,658
a great example of the reality in NSG - ask a question in an intelligent manner, receive intelligent answers.

as many others have said, you gotta do what you gotta do. if you don't take the job, someone else will and someone else will be having the same environmental impact that you are. it's really hard for environmental issues to be solved starting at the individual level. the environmental impact was happening before you work there, will happen if you don't work there, and will happen after you choose or choose not to work there. i think it's a matter of whether or not you can "live" with yourself being a part of the problem. but really, you wouldn't be the problem. you'd just be another worker fueling demand.
Apr 10 2014 9:37PM
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Garebear
Posts: 378 - Karma: 4,908
get a career peeing in butts
Apr 10 2014 9:38PM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
I work in oil and it's been great to me. I also love it. The technical challenges we (engineers) face everyday are incredible. Never get bored. It's a great industry to work in. My mantra about the whole environment thing was that if I wasn't doing it then some other idiot might be-thus I'd rather have some input technically in the design and operation of some of these projects, where I can actually implement safe practices, rather than being some arm chair green warrior.

Go for it. What's the worst that could happen? You hate it and go home... But with a bit extra cash. Id personally sweep the streets if you paid me enough. 29 is getting on. I'm 34 and realized I don't want to work forever so now I'm doing everything I can to retire early. What do you plan to do for you future financial stability? This could be a great way to catch up and get ahead....
Apr 10 2014 9:48PM
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Rusticles
Posts: 2178 - Karma: 1,333
^^^^ Also, Try this angle. You're not helping the environment by refusing to work in the oilfield, in fact you're hurting it. If an environmentally conscious person took a good job in the oilfield instead of some Punk that was going to piss away his money on a new diesel truck every year instead of trying to reduce their foot print a little we would be better off as a whole.
Apr 10 2014 9:55PM
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Rusticles
Posts: 2178 - Karma: 1,333
And as far as shift work goes, You might get to ski more if you're on a two week rotation. I've done it, the thing that sucks is that you miss two weekends a month that everyone else has off. The way I used to look at it is this: most people come home from their 9-5 5day work week and watch TV at least half of the evenings, whats the difference if you're watching it at home or in camp, plus free room and board for half the month, money builds quickly when you're not spending it.
Apr 10 2014 10:01PM
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Utard
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 296
H8CHMy mantra about the whole environment thing was that if I wasn't doing it then some other idiot might be


Everybody who's making this argument doesn't really understand. Whether or not the same consequence is going to happen should factor very little into your moral judgments. If you saw that somebody left an unlocked bike in a bad neighborhood and you were sure that somebody would come along and take it eventually, you wouldn't steal it would you? And even if you did decide to take the bike, would you be justified in saying that somebody else would take it anyway and therefore you're not morally responsible? The way I see it, ethics should primarily be concerned with intentional action rather than consequence. Your decision to take the bike should be motivated by whether you think stealing is wrong, not by whether you think it will be stolen anyways.
Apr 10 2014 10:23PM
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broto
Posts: 9039 - Karma: 25,658
UtardEverybody who's making this argument doesn't really understand. Whether or not the same consequence is going to happen should factor very little into your moral judgments. If you saw that somebody left an unlocked bike in a bad neighborhood and you were sure that somebody would come along and take it eventually, you wouldn't steal it would you? And even if you did decide to take the bike, would you be justified in saying that somebody else would take it anyway and therefore you're not morally responsible? The way I see it, ethics should primarily be concerned with intentional action rather than consequence. Your decision to take the bike should be motivated by whether you think stealing is wrong, not by whether you think it will be stolen anyways.


ehhhh i feel like that comparison just doesn't translate well to this situation. is every worker in the oil industry just going to quit and leave america dependent on foreign oil at increased costs? is that your moral duty? we don't really have a choice in using oil at this point in time. i'm not saying that's a good thing or that it will continue to be that way in the future, but right now we are an extremely oil dependent society.

maybe the comparison would work if by stealing the bike you continue to allow society to function normally in some weird act of seemingly unrelated events.
Apr 10 2014 10:30PM
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acualywasdolan
Posts: 1172 - Karma: -747
Who gives a fuck. Get money fuck bitches
Apr 11 2014 12:05AM
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skier58284
Posts: 1705 - Karma: 5,365
Don't do it. Find a way to be happy without much money. Be a ski bum or something.
Apr 11 2014 12:10AM
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Utard
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 296
brotoehhhh i feel like that comparison just doesn't translate well to this situation. is every worker in the oil industry just going to quit and leave america dependent on foreign oil at increased costs? is that your moral duty? we don't really have a choice in using oil at this point in time. i'm not saying that's a good thing or that it will continue to be that way in the future, but right now we are an extremely oil dependent society.

maybe the comparison would work if by stealing the bike you continue to allow society to function normally in some weird act of seemingly unrelated events.


See, that's just the thing though. The fact that his choice is going to have no consequence whatsoever on whether society continues to "function normally" only places more weight on OP's moral orientation. Society's not going to come screeching to a halt if he doesn't take this job. That fact frees up OP to make a decision based purely on his values and moral intuitions.
Apr 11 2014 12:12AM
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Caucasian_Asian
Posts: 2447 - Karma: 1,665
DrailOk, so I'm sitting here trying to decide which direction I should go in life. Currently working silviculture 7 months a year and skiing the winter away, but I want a change. The "easy" out is to get into a trade and go work in fort Mac, making $6000/paycheque give or take (most likely give). For years I just said it wasn't an option due to my idealistic thoughts about life, the environment, and our social responsibility to 'be green'.

After some interesting conversations with friends and thinking about the big picture, and the small I'm starting to think the mentality of "never work the oil industry" might be just as hypocritical as bashing the industry while depending on said industry for every aspect of my day to day life. Obviously, going off the grid and becoming fully sustainable is not an option (and if you think it is than you best get off the Internet you dirty hippy) so it raises the question.

Curious what your guys opinion on the subject is. Is it worth signing my soul away to the devil for monetary gain, and if not, why? At what point does it turn from "if you can't beat em, join them" to being the them that you (I) have been so blindly against for so long.


There are other options than the oilpatch. I've been working for an engineering firm in Calgary for the last 11 years, and only spent 6 weeks in the 'Patch(Ft Mac/Conklin).

I've had offers to go up there full time with other companies, but it's not worth it to me. Sure, I could make probably twice what I do now, but sleeping in my own bed is worth more than that to me.

I don't have anything against the oil and gas industry, I just don't want to be in Ft Mac.

Maybe look into switching from silviculture to environmental monitoring or consulting?
Apr 11 2014 10:57AM
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DasGoatenshafter
Posts: 580 - Karma: 307
In terms of being green, there's nothing you can do differently if you're labouring in oil. My prof once said "I don't understand why we offer an 'environmental option' in out chemical engineering program. A good process engineer is an environmental engineer by wasting less." I wouldn't mind working in oil because I'd at least work in some sort of engineering capacity where (hopefully) I can work towards optimizing the processes and making it less bad.

As a labourer, all you can do is accept that that stuff is happening regardless. You know how you get the p-tex in your ski base? Plastic made from oil. Everything, everywhere, so far depends on oil or hydrocarbons for fuel to make them, or as raw materials to make them. You should focus more on going green in all other aspects of your life and just take the job because its wild monies.
Apr 11 2014 12:35PM
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SkiThe603
Posts: 5376 - Karma: 498
DrailFor context. I'm 29 and have been living the ski bum lifestyle for 12 years now. I like to thing about stuff, and look at everything multi leveled - so naturally, I over think almost everything I do.


You sound like you have it all figured out, seven months of work to ski for five is a dream life! If you aren't happy with the seasonal work you do then switching paths is worthwhile out of you are truly happy, keep on the path you have made progress on!
Apr 11 2014 1:03PM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,168
SkiThe603You sound like you have it all figured out, seven months of work to ski for five is a dream life! If you aren't happy with the seasonal work you do then switching paths is worthwhile out of you are truly happy, keep on the path you have made progress on!


The silviculture industry is a really tough industry to work in for a long time. Not that many people last even seven years.

Have you thought about being up in fort mac? Would it be a full time relocation to live and work up there or would you do something similiar to what you are doing now just with a different pay check?

Also what is fort macs proximity to skiing in the winter? Is that an available option or would you be sacrificing the ski bum lifestyle as your priorities change?
Apr 11 2014 1:08PM
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Rusticles
Posts: 2178 - Karma: 1,333
Link.The silviculture industry is a really tough industry to work in for a long time. Not that many people last even seven years.

Have you thought about being up in fort mac? Would it be a full time relocation to live and work up there or would you do something similiar to what you are doing now just with a different pay check?

Also what is fort macs proximity to skiing in the winter? Is that an available option or would you be sacrificing the ski bum lifestyle as your priorities change?


Fort mac is a long ways from skiing.

I don't think relocating would be your best bet, shift work would be better or working longer in the summer less in the winter.

There are other places than fort mac if you're thinking of relocating, Calgary and edmonton are fairly busy trades wise but require traveling.
Apr 11 2014 2:11PM
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jibbinc.
Posts: 3355 - Karma: 2,497
You can message me if you want to avoid this NSG shit.

I work with the union for pipeline construction, and have friends who work non-union.

If you dont work on the pipeline, someone else will.

Where did you come up with $6000 a cheque, and do you have a good connection for a job?
Apr 11 2014 2:15PM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
jibbinc.You can message me if you want to avoid this NSG shit.

I work with the union for pipeline construction, and have friends who work non-union.

If you dont work on the pipeline, someone else will.

Where did you come up with $6000 a cheque, and do you have a good connection for a job?


probably a hookup, nobody inflates their income on the internet
Apr 11 2014 3:26PM
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Park.
Posts: 2480 - Karma: 4,582
UtardSee, that's just the thing though. The fact that his choice is going to have no consequence whatsoever on whether society continues to "function normally" only places more weight on OP's moral orientation. Society's not going to come screeching to a halt if he doesn't take this job. That fact frees up OP to make a decision based purely on his values and moral intuitions.


You are a wise man
Apr 13 2014 1:41PM
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JDA
Posts: 572 - Karma: 566
Do what makes you happy, try set yourself a goal in your new job. It is boring doing the same job with no goal- even if it is not a financial goal, try learn or figure something out.
Apr 13 2014 1:51PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11953 - Karma: 12,292
Hmmm. Why not trying to get into sustainable energy instead? In reality, do it for a bit, put some money away and revist in a couple years.
Apr 13 2014 1:57PM
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Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
SkiThe603You sound like you have it all figured out, seven months of work to ski for five is a dream life! If you aren't happy with the seasonal work you do then switching paths is worthwhile out of you are truly happy, keep on the path you have made progress on!


I'm not denying that the summer seasonal work and winters off isn't a good life, I'm just looking for a change.


I have a friend who has the same plan as me as far as working for the oil industry and a similar end game. Going tower up with him next week and discuss out wants/needs/values. I don't exactly know what I wanted from starting his thread, but any angle of thought is worth pondering.
Apr 13 2014 10:02PM
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broto
Posts: 9039 - Karma: 25,658
UtardSee, that's just the thing though. The fact that his choice is going to have no consequence whatsoever on whether society continues to "function normally" only places more weight on OP's moral orientation. Society's not going to come screeching to a halt if he doesn't take this job. That fact frees up OP to make a decision based purely on his values and moral intuitions.


which is why in my first post i said

"i think it's a matter of whether or not you can "live" with yourself being a part of the problem. but really, you wouldn't be the problem. you'd just be another worker fueling demand."

....
Apr 13 2014 10:36PM
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