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March, 2024

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Am I on to something, or just stupid?

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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Ignore my last post, my computer is drunk. Anyways after skiing 4 pairs of skis last year in this order el reys, chronics, halos, and Thalls, I had this theory about cambered vs rocketed park skis, with the el reys they held rails really well and were really easy to spin with off of rails, but too stiff for me, so I traded my buddy for 2013 chronics but I found that I would be slipping off the rail more than usual and they didn't seem to grab as well to spin off, then I got halos and experienced a lot of the same as with the chronics, then at the end of the season I rode some thalls (current ski now) and I got that hold back on rails and was able to spin 4s off with basically no drop as I could with the el reys. So the bottom line is I had the theory that since the thalls and el reys have a lot of camber it helps you hold the rail better, because if you think about it, its basically an upside down U shape and that should hold a rail better than a more rocketed shape (I know halos and chronics still have camber but not nearly as much)... If this made sense to one person I'll be happy enough haha, hopefully I'm not the only one who has ever noticed this
Sep 3 2013 6:02PM
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werd.
Posts: 967 - Karma: 4,330
I'm pretty sure everyone already knew this
Sep 3 2013 6:05PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,851
It makes sense in theory, but even rockered park skis have a bit of camber underfoot. I think the real difference is the width of the ski and how sharp your edges were and the rails themselves.
Sep 3 2013 6:05PM
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gnartogue
Posts: 1005 - Karma: 417
i get what your saying but i dont think that would make a difference

Sep 3 2013 6:05PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Really? All my buds thought I was going nuts
Sep 3 2013 6:08PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
That is a possibility with thalls and el reys being pretty close, but the el reys were sharp and the t halls were pretty dull, I mean no doubt edge sharpness plays a huge role but this was still in the back of my head all summer.. nevertheless I went for the new t halls just to be sure I'd likemy set up this year... DDon't plan on going through 4 skis again this year
Sep 3 2013 6:12PM
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werd.
Posts: 967 - Karma: 4,330
Nah I thought it was just a commonly known thing. I'm pretty sure it says it in a rocker vs camber thread I'll try to find it
Sep 3 2013 6:15PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Really? Please do. Damn I thought I looked everywhere... Oh well
Sep 3 2013 6:20PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
I just thought it was personal preference but oh well, I'm open minded
Sep 3 2013 6:29PM
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Saga.
Posts: 3812 - Karma: 45,323
I've heard people bring up this same argument with snowboards. Personally I don't think it matters. The spinning off rails thing though. There might be some science behind that. If the skis have different swing weights it can greatly affect how fast you can spin them around.
Sep 3 2013 6:30PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Yea swing weight is definitely a factor... I mean hey I'm gonna ride whatever works, but I just thought I'd throw it out there to see what people think
Sep 3 2013 6:39PM
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werd.
Posts: 967 - Karma: 4,330
Found one website talking about camber vs rocker that said jib rocker (early rise tip and tail then flat) helps grip the rail better. Couldn't find anything on NS but im almost sure i read it somewhere
Sep 3 2013 7:22PM
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gotti
Posts: 4269 - Karma: 4,548
but with more rockered skis it is easier to do switch ups/spin off without catching an edge because you don't have to jump as high
Sep 3 2013 10:54PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Damn.. and after all the years... The lies they told me
Sep 3 2013 11:02PM
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Triple_Strum
Posts: 6382 - Karma: 946
THis makes total sense to me - but how great of effect it has, I don't know.
Sep 3 2013 11:03PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Yea you know because of physics and gravity and stuff haha but yea I agree it would be hard to test to see if that is the case
Sep 3 2013 11:11PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Yea that makes sense also but I've never really had trouble catching edges buttering, surface swapping, or on a switch up with a cambered ski either. Not trying to say I'm insane and never catch an edge, I just didn't notice the difference going from a full camber to park rocker ski.
Sep 3 2013 11:16PM
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KingTaco
Posts: 2510 - Karma: 2,824
so true. its amazing how much difference a tip being flipped up 1cm rather than flipped down 1cm makes. The collective 2cm difference can be the difference between getting your tips over and the spin around, and not.

with this in mind, i still dont care and ill be using ar7s this season
Sep 3 2013 11:17PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
AR7s are dope skis, I tried them out a year ago but with me only being 155lbs I went for the t halls because they a little flexier. Same dimensions tho.
Sep 3 2013 11:48PM
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asissle
Posts: 161 - Karma: 104
There is definitely some truth here, I think swing weight has a lot to do with it because my 07 Anthems which are very dull lock on and are easier to spin off with than my 2012 Chronics even though they are narrower and sharper.
Sep 4 2013 12:23AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Yea, I think it may play a small role just because it seemed to hold true with every camber ski I used (and vice versa). BTW I loved my anthems when I had them... Almost went with the TCs this year because of it but I couldn't get over how good the t halls I skied.. I'd like to get some cheap old anthems again just for shits and giggles tho.
Sep 4 2013 12:33AM
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-WZ-
Posts: 3600 - Karma: 6,581
This makes sense to me
Sep 4 2013 12:58AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Glad a few people hear me out on this one, I guess I'm just one of the guys who's never gotten the advantage of early rise in a park ski. I mean it totally makes sense in my JJs in the deep stuff it helps you float, but for a park ski you still have the 2 main contacts at the tip and tail and longer and more useless tip and tails causing the ski to feel smaller than it is yet be bigger, for example I got 176 thalls but if I were to go for halos I'd go with a 181 due to the early rise... Kinda seems like it takes away from the low swing weight idea of those skis if you just have to compensate with length... Idk that's just my opinion, like I said before its all personal preference
Sep 4 2013 1:28AM
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mstevo
Posts: 237 - Karma: 300
this shouldn't make any difference. Think about this: when you hit a rail your skis bounce up and down because of the impact they get from the rail, so the camber on the rail is really not that stable hence it wouldn't "hold you better on the rail". It really is more of a sidecut topic.
Sep 4 2013 1:45AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
I understand your point but I feel that the ski still has a push to the center of the camber (mostly closer to the bindings underfoot where it is stiffer) whereas a more rockered ski will have more of a push off the rail due to the lower amount of camber... I'm majoring in engineering so I think way too deep about these types of things haha
Sep 4 2013 1:55AM
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powderwhore92
Posts: 119 - Karma: 24
bzturk dropping some knowledge
Sep 4 2013 2:00AM
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-WZ-
Posts: 3600 - Karma: 6,581
But eventually your skis will stop bouncing and just start sliding if its a long rail or softer impact, so then i think it may be a camber issue
Sep 4 2013 2:02AM
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mstevo
Posts: 237 - Karma: 300
notably yes, but with the most skis it's a camber-height of maybe 3-6mm (per ski) and there are always vibrations on the ski, because you also move slightly on the rail.
Maybe there is a slight impact on the rail ability, but there are some features of the ski that I think affect this way more.
Sep 4 2013 2:25AM
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mstevo
Posts: 237 - Karma: 300
haha I know what you mean, I also studied engineering and now it is my job to think deep over this sort of issues every day. But in my opinion the camber shouldn't really matter in this kind of situation. But maybe it is, would be interesting to do some prototypes with similar sidecut but different cambers and try it out.
Sep 4 2013 2:35AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Oh nice! Its a great field! And yea, I guess the only way to really know would to have two identical skis other than the rocker so there are no other variables like you said
Sep 4 2013 7:49AM
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mstevo
Posts: 237 - Karma: 300
you got it, I'll try and get something like that running.
Sep 4 2013 7:57AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
That would be awesome! I would definitely be interested to see the outcome, seeing as so many park companies are using the "park rocker" concept.
Sep 4 2013 8:07AM
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mstevo
Posts: 237 - Karma: 300
I'll keep you updated about that ;-)
Sep 4 2013 8:14AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Sounds good man!
Sep 4 2013 8:21AM
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freeskibum82
Posts: 6355 - Karma: 5,055
there is a reason that most comp level skis are not rockered. this also goes for snowboards too. shaun white rocks a traditional cambered board for park and pipe too.
Sep 4 2013 8:35AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
I noticed that also, I mean you see the pros promote the rocketed park skis (they have to, they're sponsored) but as you said you don't see it nearly as much in comps. There has to be a reason even if it isn't the one I stated
Sep 4 2013 8:46AM
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mstevo
Posts: 237 - Karma: 300
In this case I think the reason is the longer effective base and edge lenght you get with traditional camber - so better edge control and more speed. Rockered park skis are more for jib usage like buttering and pressing
Sep 4 2013 9:00AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Yea I think that is the other half of the reason why I prefer traditional camber
Sep 4 2013 9:18AM
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TheClap.
Posts: 21649 - Karma: 4,013
Live or die by the rocker
Sep 4 2013 9:20AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
That's pretty much it
Sep 4 2013 9:28AM
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Wolfgang.
Posts: 807 - Karma: 866
I've never hit a rail on a rockered ski, I feel like it would be different, but fun. I must try it.
Sep 4 2013 10:50AM
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BigScaryLarry
Posts: 1448 - Karma: 2,732
i think maybe you should learn how to actually scissor a rail then come back and talk to us
Sep 4 2013 11:01AM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Ok I'm back..
Sep 4 2013 11:41AM
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milk_man
Posts: 5214 - Karma: 6,494
I thought the title was 'am I on something or just stupid'... Anyway I used to have some threats but switched to domains and personally I like the domains better for everything. And they are about as camberless as skis get
Sep 4 2013 4:54PM
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TimRiley
Posts: 1873 - Karma: 1,327
I'm pretty sure you pretend to know a lot more than you do and post ignorant shit.

OP, your theory makes sense to me...
Sep 4 2013 5:06PM
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pat_in_the_hat
Posts: 3019 - Karma: 2,695
theory is correct, but its not a big enough foot print to make a difference. youre really only sliding on ~6" underfoot. there is not enough camber or rocker directly underfoot to cause a big enough difference. plus if you are doing the super scissor things where you press really far out on one tip to get a dec spin out your ski flexes enough to eradicate the effects of the shape of the ski.
so, youre just stupid ;)
Sep 4 2013 5:14PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Hahaha I was waiting for someone to finally call me stupid since its in the title. I kind of figured it was too small of a difference to be worth anything but just thought I'd post it cuz I haven't heard anything on it before
Sep 4 2013 6:25PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Hahaha I can see where that would happen, and yea most of my friends love their rockered park skis I just could never get into them when iI had them... The Thalls are the shit tho
Sep 4 2013 6:28PM
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Yaraelpoof.png
Posts: 1556 - Karma: 6,417
wat saga said. Also you are definitely on to something
Sep 4 2013 6:47PM
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Rayzor
Posts: 284 - Karma: 226
Thanks, glad I'm not the only one haha
Sep 4 2013 7:06PM
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mstevo
Posts: 237 - Karma: 300
wow this thread is as serious as it can get on newschoolers
Sep 5 2013 1:17AM
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