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Inner Moral Conflict

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Bart.Man
Posts: 1742 - Karma: 1,951
I consider myself to be a Christian. I believe in the teachings and gospel of the Bible, but lately I have entered a weird kind of personal moral conflict. I believe that abortion is wrong, but the Bible is clearly in support of corporal punishment, and until recently I have seen nothing wrong with the death penalty. As you can see, this is a conflicting belief. On one hand, I feel as though it's wrong to take a life, but on the other I feel as if it's justified to kill a heinous criminal. Can NSG weigh in and offer some clarification or justification, or just provide input?

I'm not here to debate the tenants of Christianity and if you believe it or think I'm stupid for doing so, just to discuss the above topic. I also realize that this is probably way to deep of a subject to succeed as a thread on NSG, just wanted some input.

TL;DR: I'm struggling to decide if the death penalty is ok while believing abortion isn't
Jun 28 2013 5:09PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
it's definitely a paradox that gets brought up a lot in political debates..

similarly, many criticize religious righties for their vociferous arguments against abortion, but general lack of any support for systems that care for children once they are born (e.g. welfare, social services etc etc)

we're talking on the large scale here, but yeah, these are questions many struggle with
Jun 28 2013 5:29PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
well, you can look at it either two ways.

1. you're a hypocrite.

2. Abortion is not okay because it is taking an innocent life, while the death penalty is okay because it is taking the life of someone who has done something horrendous and deserves to be punished for it.
Jun 28 2013 5:41PM
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HWW
Posts: 3084 - Karma: 3,436
Religion has fucked your morals, I sincerely wish you the best for the future and hope you can find a cure.
Jun 28 2013 5:48PM
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Randy_Quench
Posts: 5447 - Karma: 4,342
MORE RELIGION IS THE ANSWER.
Jun 28 2013 5:50PM
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CaptainObvious.
Posts: 5711 - Karma: 20,627
I stopped reading.
Jun 28 2013 5:59PM
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Petey.
Posts: 5736 - Karma: 4,881
An unborn and undeveloped human is not a life.
Jun 28 2013 6:00PM
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icon1234
Posts: 3081 - Karma: 1,475
Your flaw is your reading some ancient text and then hoping it to have the answer to ethical issues and have it guide your moral compass. While I am not religious, and honestly think the bible is a very poor source for defining your moral compass. The reason being is because the bible of the most part is illogical and is contradicting, which you yourself have found out given the issue between abortion and capital punishment. This makes it a very poor lens to view certain matters on, as it doesn't define things based on unbiased logical principles, it is biased and judgmental lens.

We all define how we view right and wrong, good and bad, from some source, some draw their ethical conclusions from parents/family, others religion, or simply from personal experience, etc. The reality is our morality is defined and created from all the aforementioned and not from one or the other. IMO, you are experiencing a dilemma because you are trying to define morality from the perspective of a single lens, religion. This results in a internal conflict because you are neglecting to incorporate the other factors and influences that have defined your preconceived notion of right and wrong. My advice is think of the issue from all the influences in your life, and then you will be able to define what you believe in... Not from one single vantage point, as your moral compass has been defined from many different factors and not just the bible.

Defining things absolutes, or from only one extreme point of view is a bad to live life. Which is why I think the bible can be a bad influence if you take it to be the absolute truth on how you should live your life.
Jun 28 2013 6:21PM
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Dingo69
Posts: 1330 - Karma: -171
Neither are you right now. We arent ever alive. We are and absurdly intricate mesh of chemical reactions kept in homeostatic balance by our dna. Being dead doesnt feel foreign. It feels like the way you feel in between thoughts or in stage 4 sleep
Jun 28 2013 6:26PM
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icon1234
Posts: 3081 - Karma: 1,475
And for what is is worth, here are my views and beliefs on abortion and capital punishment. I believe the living are entitled to rights, which have been defined by the Constitution. Those however who break the law, and have done heinous crimes essentially lose their right to live if they become convicted of those said crimes via due process. In my mind that is a pretty fair and I am okay with capital punishment.

The gray area for me, is if I define living to be entitled to said rights, and we all have the right to live, then abortion is essentially taking away that right without following due process of law. The problem arises when you try to define when life begins. Does it begin at conception, first/second/third trimester, at birth? How do we define where life begins? As a biology major, I know cells are considered living things, so on that principle life begins at conception, when a zygote is formed. But for some reason that doesn't seem enough, and I honestly cannot tell you where I stand on abortion. What I can say is I am so uncertain on how to define abortion and its moral consequences that I unable to say "I don't believe in abortion, or that it should be illegal". So for now I believe abortion should be legal, just because I can't say with certainty it should be illegal, and I would rather have women to have the right for something so "gray" as opposed to having it.

Whew that was way too serious for NSG, back to studying.
Jun 28 2013 6:37PM
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icculus.
Posts: 749 - Karma: 3,963
Abortion is okay.... Death penalty isn't... In abortion the baby inst a baby yet.. In the death penalty the person is alive and no one deserves to die and just make them suffer in jail and make their ads huge
Jun 28 2013 7:02PM
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Mr.Sloth
Posts: 5091 - Karma: 13,469
Make their ads huge?
Jun 28 2013 7:09PM
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Sophistication.
Posts: 665 - Karma: 352
Wait... You don't believe in abortion... But you do believe in the death penalty?
Think about it.
Jun 28 2013 7:55PM
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bigbromskier
Posts: 1175 - Karma: 330
It's shit like this that caused the founding fathers to promote the separation of church and state (I see that you aren't necessarily voicing political opinion, but I'm just sayin'). Also, thinking on such a large scale causes you to want to influence your ideas on others, which is another religious paradox in that Christianity champions both acceptance and forgiveness.

In your case, you are not accepting the fact that others have the ability to do with their body what they choose, and in a nut shell, forgiving those who don't deserve to be forgiven. Your paradox is only that much more ridiculous because both of your views tend to degrade people and society in general by one, bringing another child into a usually disadvantaged position, and two, allowing those who commit horrendous crimes on others the opportunity to commit those crimes again.

But in the end, I am of the belief that you can think whatever you want, as long as you don't try to force those views on others if they don't align with their opinion. That's why government is around to try and take a sample of public opinion and govern said public as it would hope to be governed. Note the importance of state vs federal laws here.

My advice is to not think so big picture--it's great mental exercise, but can really grind on you if you take it too seriously. Live your life purposefully day to day, and take on those big issues if you personally are forced to.

If a dog shits in your yard, or your dog shits in another's yard, you're obligated to pick it up; but if it's not your dog, nor your yard, let the respective owners deal with it! God speed!

Jun 28 2013 8:36PM
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270on420out
Posts: 7492 - Karma: 50,771
I am Christian but some of the stuff about Christianity just pisses me off. If god is perfect then why would he give us sexual temptations and tell us we can't relieve them, why would he give us people who kill,steal,rape, and cause discomfort to us and tell us we can't be mad at them.
Jun 28 2013 10:51PM
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shitpoop
Posts: 667 - Karma: 1,479
I personally don't like abortion, but I do not let my feelings govern other people. BAYUM DONE
Jun 28 2013 10:56PM
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ElMexicano
Posts: 639 - Karma: 400
Bible's all about forgiveness so even killing criminals would be wrong.

1. You're a hypocrite

2. Thou shall not kill??

That's my take anyway
Jun 28 2013 11:00PM
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Heart
Posts: 6156 - Karma: 3,462
Do what your morals tell you, not what a couple-thousand year old book says.
Jun 28 2013 11:01PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11953 - Karma: 12,292
One day you'll realize god isn't real and all these stupid rules you've been following only make you come off as weird. I hope this for you, nay PRAY this for you.

Btw once I got to christian I stopped reading your post. YOLO.
Jun 28 2013 11:03PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
are you vegan?
Jun 28 2013 11:17PM
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.qzyxya
Posts: 1479 - Karma: -26
Death penalty is hypocritical. I think abortion is wrong personally but women should be free to do whatever they want. Plus if the person actually wants to have an abortion they would probably be a terrible parent anyways. If you force them to ahve kids they'd just put them off for adoption, which would overfill the orphanages
Jun 28 2013 11:23PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
.
Jun 28 2013 11:24PM
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keatdogg
Posts: 95 - Karma: 110
Accidentally knock a chick up, that will change your stance on abortion right quick.
Jun 29 2013 12:14AM
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saskskier
Posts: 4772 - Karma: 9,984
How can one say single celled organisms and/microbes would be evidence of life on Mars, yet a growing, developing fetus that will never become anything but a human, is not considered life?
Jun 29 2013 12:50AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10622 - Karma: 7,397
because people are retarded.

also according to most christian denominations, death penalty is only okay if you can not protect the masses from the bad people.
Jun 29 2013 1:00AM
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grapejuice3000+
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 1,985
WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT THE BIBLE

christianity is a relationship with god, not the bible. the true redemption comes from love/living in a relationship with god, not following the exact words of some fucking historical fiction. do what you feel is best, not what the bible tells you is.
Jun 29 2013 1:46AM
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family_vacation
Posts: 6200 - Karma: 7,841
I'll let you know that I'm an extremely liberal guy who's against capital punishment. I also believe that women should be entirely in charge of their reproductive health from before conception all the way towards delivery. I think that the Bible is an great tool that provides basic guiding principles, but I don't think that it should be used to adress specific issues. It was written in a VERY different world, and taking the entire contents at face value simply doesn't make sense.

I suppose you could also look at the difference between a criminal and a fetus. A fetus obviously hasn't wronged anyone, a criminal has. But do you think that our justice system works well enough to carry out the death sentence? Plenty of innocent people are convicted and they are often pardoned years later. Death is permanent. Our justice system is not.
Jun 29 2013 2:20AM
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Bart.Man
Posts: 1742 - Karma: 1,951
The first part of your post is correct (in my opinion) however it derails as it continues. You claim that a personal relationship with God is possible without depending on Biblical teachings, yet that is not so. If you are to serve and love God, you must first know what He expects, desires and wants for you. My 2 cents.

To the people saying they stopped reading after "Christian" I am sorry, but to be honest, I understand. I despise what the term Christian has come to mean in recent history, and I don't blame you for wanting no part of it, but please understand that this thread was not designed to impose religious view, simply to discuss this particular issue.

I understand that the Bible was written thousands of years ago and the world has changed dramatically since then, but are the moral principles not the same as they were at the time of the writings? Was evil not the same? Was murder different? No, at least not to the best of my knowledge, they were/are not. I guess it boils down to the idea of taking an innocent life versus a tainted life. However, as someone in this thread pointed out already, a main doctrine of Biblical teaching is the idea of forgiveness. Should we be fighting towards a rehabilitation based justice system, maybe? Christ was focused on helping the weak and sick, and aren't criminals (to the extent of deserving the death penalty) not sick and demonically motivated? Similarly, why are my people (followers of Christ) pushing for abortion to be outlawed? Why can we not just know where we stand and, while attempting to share Christ, allow others their freedom of choice?


Jun 30 2013 3:38PM
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grapejuice3000+
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 1,985
so a muslim may not have a personal relationship with god? because there is no bible in islam? plz. get your orthodox nonsense out of here.
Jun 30 2013 9:01PM
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SFB
Posts: 8895 - Karma: 26,346
koran = islam bible. but i agree christianity is not about literally following whatever an ancient book tells you to.
Jun 30 2013 9:26PM
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Balbertt
Posts: 1585 - Karma: 4,723
I don't follow any religions or take part in them. I don't believe in god or any other higher being. I just have my own right or wrongs. It is easy that way.
Jun 30 2013 9:31PM
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FightClub27
Posts: 486 - Karma: 416
What is then?
Jun 30 2013 9:57PM
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_____alfredo____
Posts: 1123 - Karma: 2,503
are you stupid ?
Jun 30 2013 11:34PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,122
no not at all.
Jun 30 2013 11:50PM
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icon1234
Posts: 3081 - Karma: 1,475
My parents were mine... As well as my education. You know the golden rule talks? What things are okay or bad in school, things like that. Then personal experience helped define and shape what it is today. I think morality changes with time as well, for example I used to fully support abortion all my life, and just recently I am having second thoughts about it.

Problem is when you use the bible it is so absolute with its values, it doesn't let your morality progress with time and personal experience. And worse part is if you were to take a different stance or even a compromise on one of the bibles extreme view points you are told you're sinning and that you will go to hell for it. I really have no idea about religion so I am just speculating on that last idea.

But at least with my parents, and with school, they kind of set an idea of "okay this what we believe is good or bad" but what do you think? They give you some freedom for defining things yourself, while giving you a good direction to start in. That gives you the most unbiased moral compass, which imo is the best type.
Jul 1 2013 2:33AM
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Stickity
Posts: 7750 - Karma: 769
if you're a cold twisted fuck who rapes babies or shoots up a school or some shit, you deserve to be brutally tortured and then killed slowly.
Jul 1 2013 2:55AM
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whoa-dere
Posts: 10596 - Karma: 7,100
"Inner moral conflicts" are for bitchbois. Op is a pussy
Jul 1 2013 2:58AM
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Wall_Nut
Posts: 629 - Karma: 113
Abortion is not a public moral issue, it is a personal choice. If a parasite attaches itself to your body, and removing it would end its life, you as the host must decide what to do. Life is autonomy; therefore, what is not autonomous is merely organic matter. However, I am assuming you are a male, and so it's really a pointless thing to be against. It will never apply to you, and it just makes you sexist.

Also, the death penalty has little correlation to crime deterrence, because most violent crimes that would merit such are not premeditated, but rather, perpetrated in "the heat of the moment". Besides, living in an 8x8 cell for the rest of your life sounds like the greater punishment.
Jul 1 2013 12:27PM
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Maturin
Posts: 132 - Karma: 78
an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
Jul 1 2013 12:49PM
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