Member of the Month

PartyBullshiit
March, 2024

Online

Welcome to the Newschoolers forums! You may read the forums as a guest, however you must be a registered member to post. Register to become a member today!

New feature in the forums

profile picture
schmuck
Posts: 1974 - Karma: 53,159
Hey everyone,

Wanted to let you all know about an exciting new feature that's coming to the forums later this week...the ability to rate individual posts.

We've made the decision to add this feature because it will do much a better job of determining the best quality threads via ratings (which will in turn appear on the homepage) in a more accurate way, as opposed to an overall thread rating.

Please note that this feature will NOT change or affect the ordering of posts or threads, as we will never get rid of the ability to view forums by the latest added view. It will simply act as a way for you to determine the best quality threads and the ones that show up on the homepage.

In addition to this heads up, we're looking for some people to help us test this feature and provide feedback, so if you're interested, please send me a PM.

Thanks!



Mar 4 2013 2:15PM
1318 694
profile picture
Dirty.Harry.
Posts: 1779 - Karma: 351
I'm not a fan of the individual votes but it's not gonna change anything for me. Sort of just...whatever.
Mar 12 2013 11:19PM
3 4
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
This is an experiment. Before, we were receiving very little thread ratings, so they weren't so much as inaccurate but simply not being rated. We didn't toss the data, its still there in the form of what the OP is rated. It would be extremely easy to make this switch, and we are totally free to tweak what the scores are triggering.

The other thing to note is that very little is calculated by the 'score' that you are able to see. Everything on the back-end uses different math that just uses that data.

If you actually look at the homepage and sort by top rated of the week, you get some decent threads. I'm happy about this.

A simple switch to allow the OP score to be the overall thread score, or to have a separate line where the thread can get an overall rating is super simple. If the data still looks bad, then we'll do this.

As of right now though, all the examples (including this thread) that people are linking to look pretty freaking accurate to me.
Mar 13 2013 4:22PM
4 3
profile picture
corona
Posts: 12751 - Karma: 32,257
^ there are some great examples pointed out where the thread rating is NOT accurate.


this years NHL thread for instance is somewhere around -20

Mar 13 2013 4:28PM
3 4
profile picture
.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,466
Almost every post in this thread is bashing the new system and those posts are the ones getting up-voted. That is the only reason this thread has a high rating when in reality, if the rating were to agree with everyones opinion it should have a very low rating.
Mar 13 2013 4:35PM
3 4
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Don't worry, we aren't trying to make NS into Reddit. What we're doing is refining the Newschoolers system, and using influences from around the internet to do so. The entire thing about up/down voting holds merit because it allows people to better sort through information. Not a ton of people have the ability to troll NS all day every day to keep up on what is happening, and we are doing this to give the ability for those who come less to get an idea of what is going on with the site.

Its all designed to be a layer on top of the normal systems that we all use as core NSers. The core NS experience won't change, and we're very dedicated to this concept.

Also, NS forums aren't unique at all - they follow a very standard forum flow. Discussion is segmented, and ordering is chronological. Most people tell us they like them for the complete simplicity. This is going to stay, and I'm actually surprised at how many people think that a few scoring numbers are going to drastically change the way the community functions. The community is great as it is, and we're not trying to change that.

What we want is for there to be snapshots of different ways to sort stuff. Its exactly the way that the video system works - most of the super core users just view the 'latest' videos added. They spend their time there, and judge things up and down. Then there are other ways to view the exact same galleries, based on the sorting criteria you're interested in.

Everyone who thinks we're going to fundamentally change the community based on the ordering of this data is completely over-reacting and way off-base. The goal is not about forcing change on the community, its about providing tools to sort and browse the gigantic quantity of content flowing into the site every second of every day.

We'll keep tweaking the system, and if we can't get a winning mix we'll just toss it in the trash. The data right now is completely throwaway, and it has simply been implemented as a light layer on top. We had no way of guessing how the data would look though, so the only way to do it is to push this stuff out and see what shakes out.

I am impressed with how much people care about the ratings of their posts. I'll be honest with you, the fact is right now its just a number - it does absolutely nothing anywhere on the site. The amount of hostile reaction in this thread alone lets me know we're onto something.

Needs work for sure, but I don't believe its a total throwaway idea.
Mar 13 2013 4:39PM
5 3
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Yeah well right now anyone can go and give everyone in a thread a 0 karma, and they can sign into 15 different aliases and do the same thing.

As well, how much each down vote affects Karma isn't a fixed and unchangeable thing - hell it doesn't even do it yet.

You can easily drop the weighting of something when its easy to do a bunch of that action.
Mar 13 2013 4:48PM
4 4
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Scoring internet points is totally irrelevant. We aren't building these systems so people can show off the length of their karma dicks, we're building them to offer sorting options of the massive quantities of content on Newschoolers.

If you're 30 then you probably have the same issues as most others our age... life starts to get serious and you don't have the same amount of time as you used to to troll Newschoolers 16 hours per day. Of course, this doesn't mean that you don't like the site or want to be part of the conversation.

So for people like you, what we want to do is give the ability for the core community to rate absolutely everything there is on the site, and then give you some sorting options for how to view it. As I said in my other post, its just like the video galleries. You might like watching edits, but you don't have time anymore to go through every single new one added to find the best - you just drop into top rated and check the good stuff.

Funny piece of history, I actually opposed the Karma system for a long time. I thought internet points were dumb, but the community actually brow beat us into doing it. Now that its done, I do kind of see the point.

Look at how much people care in this thread about completely meaningless numbers. Shit, we're barely even storing this stuff in the database right now, its really truly just a layer of experimenting. People are freaking the fuck out over some numbers on the screen.

I like the idea that some numbers can make people accountable for their actions. Its good that some might think twice about posting something utterly fucking retarded in a thread. People are way over-glorifying the 'stupid' posts on Newschoolers - there's tonnes of it that is completely useless garbage.

I also think that people are over-stating how much the people who make those comments will care about negative internet points. I'd bet anything that the real villans would wear their negative points as a badge of honor just as much as those who had positive points would do.

The free flowing conversation is about the community. I don't think that a few extra numbers on the page will have any affect whatsoever on the conversation, but what I think will happen is that people like you will be much more able to find and partake in the conversations that you care about.

Mar 13 2013 4:58PM
4 4
profile picture
k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,890
again, none of these numbers actually matter at all right? your karma doesn't affect your ability to post, your post rating doesn't affect whether or not people see it, your thread rating doesn't affect the forums, and the front page doesn't save your preferences. so yeah i think it's kinda dumb, but as it stands i have no reason to care whether it stays or goes.
Mar 13 2013 5:00PM
3 3
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
I'd define positive conversation as something that the average NSer wants to talk about. That doesn't mean it has to be all butterflies and lollypops, but I'd debate you that I think there are conversations on here that are totally fucking useless all the time.

So Positive might be the wrong word - poignant maybe would be a better one. Its totally off-base to think that the point of this rating system is to kill debate on the site. In fact, it would be to bring much more focus to it.

As for people voting and not posting - the general internet rules state that this doesn't happen. If you're a poster, you're going to make a post to get your opinion heard. Who will be doing the voting is the people that are just reading the debate.

We often forget that on here, for every one person posting, there is a hundred watching. So those who are loud and complain a lot with their words get over-stated when the actual opinion of the site might be totally against them. This allows those loud talking people to state their opinions, and the masses of the ski community as a whole to have an easier way to show their agreement or disagreement with the sentiments presented.

Hell if anything, this will have way more fuel to dissenting opinions. If someone is mad about something and it gets upvoted to the heavens, then they will have a very valid point that can not be ignored.

I see just as much negative stuff being upvoted as positive.

Mar 13 2013 5:04PM
4 3
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Right, so that makes it a good thread, and it totally highlights both the posters opinions and that of people reading it?

So it is therefore a massive glaring success.
Mar 13 2013 5:06PM
4 3
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Please tell me why you would leave the site because there is a rating system that doesn't do anything?

Just literally help me see this. I don't get it - why does it enrage you so much?
Mar 13 2013 5:07PM
4 4
profile picture
panojibber.
Posts: 1041 - Karma: 683
YES, thank you. I love it for this very reason.

I often neglect posting in threads because I don't want to get involved in a stupid argument or called an idiot for my opinion or something. The arrows are nice because I can just up/down vote posts based on what I think of them. It feels like I'm getting an opportunity to get my opinion in there without having to post. I like it.

Sometimes I think "meh, don't really want to respond to this with anything other than 'no', oh well guess I'll just have to settle for rating them 0/10". This prevents that, and is a better way to get everyone's opinions out there. The loudest voices will still be the ones posting, but it gives others an opportunity to get in there too.
Mar 13 2013 5:09PM
4 3
profile picture
k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,890
now that i think of it, the new front page is almost an exact replica of the one on pornhub...
Mar 13 2013 5:09PM
4 3
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
I'm sorry I let this discussion get so out of hand. TBH I had a baby 7 days ago, and haven't been here to explain our side of this. As such, I think that you guys have really gone off in a super negative direction and haven't looked at any of the possibilities here.

Let me make this deal with you -

Because of the new voting system, I'm now not able to write people off as the 'vocal minority' - as negative opinions can have tonnes of upvotes. So we'll use this thread as a discussion and a perfect testbed - if you can convince me that this feature absolutely must go - and lots of people agree with their upvotes - then we'll just nuke it and never speak of it again.

However, what I would like you to do is try to see that there are benefits to what we're doing. Look at it like the video galleries, where latest is only one way to view it, and the voting simply helps sort stuff. We can absolutely tweak anything about the system right now, and the idea would be to get it perfect by next winter. It can literally work in any way we want - including being completely tossed out.

So please, feel free to keep making points about why you think it must go, but also please try to see the future potential, and make suggestions that might address some of the issues you have. We'll work on this together, and I have a strong feeling that we can create something absolutely beautiful.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We launched this, its in beta and needs a ton of tweaking. Nobody in our test group gave anything but positive feedback, so we weren't able to fix it before launching public. Now we have your attention, and if you work with us its going to be magic.
Mar 13 2013 5:14PM
4 3
profile picture
.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,466
Isn't that a complete contradiction though? The way I see it is that if all the posts in the thread are disagreeing with the OP then they would most likely vote the thread down, not up. So a thread like this should have a negative thread rating not positive. Idk maybe it's just the meds i'm taking
Mar 13 2013 5:17PM
3 4
profile picture
.Hugo.
Posts: 17360 - Karma: 28,466
I think (and most people here would agree) that the only way this system can possibly work is if the rating for the thread and individual posts are not connected. Like it has been said one bad post in an otherwise good thread (or vice versa) can completely ruin the rating and misrepresent the quality of the thread.
Mar 13 2013 5:21PM
3 4
profile picture
t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
I'm just going to go through and downrate every post in this thread to make it less positive. I invite everyone to uprate every post in this thread to balance out of my act to bring the thread back to it's natural equilibrium.
Mar 13 2013 5:30PM
3 4
profile picture
k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,890
seems to me the only reason people don't like this feature is because they care, when there really is no reason to care at all. unless you think getting your thread on the frontpage is cool, but that's equivalent to getting a video on the front page of pornhub, as in, only lazy people with no real preference or opinion of their own are going to click on it anyways.
Mar 13 2013 5:34PM
3 4
profile picture
t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
Last week I down rated every post a hot page thread to see if it still be on the hot page. It was still on the hot page and the kid made a thread bitching about it. I though it was funny.
Mar 13 2013 5:37PM
3 4
profile picture
t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
Doug, you're playing both sides of the system.

Down rating a post with a positive opinion is not the same as uprating a post with a negative opinion and vice versa. The system doesn't recognize that, it just sees the postive and negative votes and can't register what the posts mean.


Really, the best way to fight this system would be to not vote anything ever.

Mar 13 2013 5:41PM
3 3
profile picture
t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
Doug, this thread now has a -162 rating which according to you means this is not something that NS likes. #seeya.


But really... You get the point right.
Mar 13 2013 5:43PM
3 4
profile picture
--ski--
Posts: 1670 - Karma: 817
I haven't been on NS enough lately to see results of this new feature, but, to me at least, it seems that it could make the site a lot less impersonal; and isn't the personal aspect what makes NS what it is? People can manipulate threads etc. without the wider community ever knowing. There are members on this site whose comments/opinions are far more provocative than others, now instead of engaging in a discussion with them, people will just down vote them
Mar 13 2013 6:09PM
3 5
profile picture
Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
Why was this post at -2? Who would down vote this?

Oddly enough, it's a good example that the up/down votes don't make any sense. Doug gets congratulated for his new born baby and people down vote it? It just doesn't make any sense, which to me makes the whole thing seam irrelevant and unnecessary.
Mar 13 2013 6:18PM
3 6
profile picture
B.Aussie
Posts: 5851 - Karma: 4,522
Every single
Post in this thread has at least 2 down votes
Mar 13 2013 10:38PM
3 4
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Why not? What does 'good' mean?

Lots of people are arguing that part of what makes NS great is the fact that there is all kinds of random negative shit.
Mar 14 2013 10:18AM
4 0
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
That is an extremely simple change, and I actually tend to agree that this was a bad idea on my part. As evidenced by today's rating on this thread, I imagine someone wanted to prove me wrong by mass downvoting.

Super duper simple change.
Mar 14 2013 10:20AM
4 0
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
You have proven that mass downvoting ruins the overall thread rating.

Thanks - we'll change that.

Mar 14 2013 10:21AM
4 0
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Well that depends on your philosophy of why you should up or downvote something. Personally, I could see a negative opinion that deserves an upvote - one that was very eloquent and a good point.

The ide of fighting this system is in itself flawed. The key is to only use it for the sake of either upvoting a good post, downvoting a bad one or leaving it be if you dont care.
Mar 14 2013 10:23AM
4 0
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
No, it does absolutely not make the entire system irrelevant. Right now there are tonnes of people in this thread trying to break the system to prove a point. Right up there you saw an invitation to downvote the bejesus out of the entire thread.

So we're experiencing two things here, which are common with new features:

1) Growing pains. New features get huge reactions and people try to just break them to prove a point right when they launch. When things settle into more natural habit, it functions much better.

2) Incorrect incentives. This is the big one - right now we have too much incentive to downvote every post, as it affects the overall rating. People don't realize that it only affects a number and that it has no affect on the thread ranking. They want to change that number though, and the incentives are there to do it.

Really we can combat both things by simple tweaks. The first would be to separate overall thread rating from individual posts, and the second if needed could be that each account gets a limited number of votes per day/thread/something.

I have a feeling though that when people settle down and realize that I'm back and listening to their concerns, the heat on this is going to die down and more of #1 will resolve itself.

You can watch this thread explode over the 7 days I have been away, and the opinion practically turn into a lynch mob. Please try to wash away that mob mentality and have a quality discussion with me about this feature.

This is a fantastic thing to have on the site - we just need to perform a few tweaks on it.

Here's a good one - since nobody was rating threads before, where should thread ratings be located?

Mar 14 2013 10:28AM
4 0
profile picture
t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
Oops. I was referring to how individual post ratings make up thread ratings. In that scenario a thread in agreence would havr all positive ratings, a thread shitting on someone would have all negative ratings, and a thread with mass debate could have an overall thread rating of zero. These ratings could come in all over the board. I know I want to read the debates so I just look for threads that have a lot of ratings each way? I think the system became too complicated and a little backwards.
Mar 14 2013 11:06AM
4 2
profile picture
Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
https://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/739041/

Here is a good example of a thread where people are shitting on each other and has a pretty negative vibe overall, yet makes for a great thread. To me, threads like this is what makes the NS forums hilarious. I wonder what the rating of the thread would be if the post votes didn't affect it.
Mar 14 2013 11:35AM
4 2
profile picture
t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
Doug, you're expecting everyone to use the system te way you intended it. This is not the presidential election, it really doesn't matter to me which way I click that arrow. The system needs to be able to handle full scale assaults. This is NS, since when is there an incentive or a right way to do anything.. We will always try to break the system. Your job is to see how we're doing it and how it's not working the way you intended it to. You need to change the system to a way where it works given our inputs. How much of the rating community is involved or actively viewing this thread? My guess is low.

How's it going outside of this thread? In here we're in a vacuum and I'm preaching corruption which seems to be going quite well since the overall thread rating has dropped 500 points from yesterday.
Mar 14 2013 11:43AM
4 2
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Basically what I define as good is what the community deems good.

The goal of the ratings system is to establish more of this exact type of thing. With the 90/9/1 rule of the internet ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture) ) the idea is that about 10% of the people who visit NS would dictate what that 'good' is. I'm fine with its definition being whatever is deemed good - even if that is bashing the Tall-T sizing, or whatever it may be.

My main objective with newschoolers as a whole is to make the core community have the ability to decide what is good and what is not. That is then presented to the larger masses in easier to digest formats, but there is no editorial influence in between these two things. I think you'd be surprised what that 30 year old person would be into. People don't actually all of a sudden turn lame at the age of 30 - often they actually love it almost more because its a great break from what others usually give them.

The key about the data is that you need enough of it, and you need to get small bits from the most number of people possible. When we increase the granularity of the data collection, it allows us to have a ton more stuff to work with in the promotional ability. When no one person can affect things too much, it does a drastically better job of representing the thoughts and philosophies of the ski community as a whole.

Mar 14 2013 12:17PM
5 1
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
The system didn't get too complicated and backwards, the system is in total infancy and isn't even close to finished. REmember, NOTHING is being affected by this yet.

What this would do is allow you to do sorting things...

So you could say, man I would like to see some really awesome and positive discussion. Click "Top Rated of the Day" and blammo, the best threads of the day would come up.

You could also say, Man... I would like to see some serious debate. I'd then click on "Most contested of the day" and blammo, stuff with equal up and down would come up.

You could also say, Man... I'd love to see the fucking sewers of NS. Give me "Worst rated of the day" and balmmo you'd get results.

Perhaps you as a core NSer might never, ever, ever use this feature - but it would be cool for people that visit slightly less to find some of the real NS gold.

Mar 14 2013 12:21PM
5 1
profile picture
Drail
Posts: 14011 - Karma: 10,001
https://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/739587/

I think this thread is about the best example as to why I think having the post up/down votes connected to the thread's overall rating is a bad idea.

But I guess to play devil's advocate to myself - if the general public that is NS likes crude hand drawn pictures like that, who am I to say they are wrong. Maybe that post DOES make the thread good? If so, I think it's the first time I truly feel out of touch with this site.

Mar 14 2013 12:53PM
4 1
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Well there's two answers there -

The 'score' isn't what stuff is ranked by when we rank it. That is just the upvotes minus the downvotes. We use the Lower bound of a wilson score confidence integer for a bernoulli paramater to rank the threads. That is a number out of 10 that you don't see, and is calculated by the up and down votes. This of course only applies to top rated.

We use Newton's law of cooling on the homepage, which calculates based on the speed upvotes are received with a decreasing rate of return for upvotes based on how long its been up.

The problem right now is that people are mis-using the up/down voting. In a perfect world they'd use it to vote up stuff that are GOOD posts and downvote BAD. They would not use it to agree or disagree with the post, only to rank its quality. That was the philosophical mistake that I made when coming to this decision. I thought that more people would instantly embrace the idea of upvoting for quality vs. upvoting with emotion. I do believe that in enough time the cultural change will take this into account, but I think I jumped the gun on people being ready immediately.

You also have to ask yourself, is that really a 'good' thread? Its a funny thread, its an epic thread, but it may not be a top rated thread. The system would pick this out, where stuff with lots of negative and downvoted would come up as controversial vs. top.

We haven't built anything that ranks forum order other than the homepage. You can see a bit how its playing out if you just look at the hot and top filters with only forum threads. I actually think it gives a decent cross section of some of the stuff going on right now, and some of the better gold over the last while. Perfect? No. However, that is part of why we needed more data. The rankings systems don't work when there isn't enough data in the system.

Mar 14 2013 12:54PM
4 1
profile picture
blindside
Posts: 5619 - Karma: 1,199
I think it's become evident that this needs to be done.

I understand your intent to make threads sortable, and I commend it. But a thread's value must be determined by an overall rating. Within a highly valued thread there will most likely be extremely low and high rated comments, hence the thread's value (i.e. heated debate, controversy, random epic posts). Such a thread should be highly rated and promoted/publicized to the community, and not restricted by the downvotes inherent to it.


Also congratulations on becoming a father!
Mar 14 2013 12:59PM
3 1
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Yep, already in the pipeline to be done.

Now, here's a question - the way it is right now is basically the OP is linked to the thread as a whole. So you'd vote on OP same as you'd vote on the entire thread.

I think its fair that the original post can't be downvoted without the thread being downvoted, as I feel like they are one and the same.

This also means that strategically we will use post voting for something different.

We'll also store both the individual post voting that makes up an overall score, and the individual thread rating - see if after people extinguish their torches and hang up their nooses that the two become closer together.

Mar 14 2013 1:51PM
4 1
profile picture
blindside
Posts: 5619 - Karma: 1,199
I disagree, the original post of a thread and the overall value of a thread are separate. For instance, an otherwise useless original post can for whatever reason result in a fantastic thread. Why should an entire thread's potential be hindered by a single post (the original one)?

So no, a downvote for the original post should not be a downvote for the thread as a whole, since the former does not necessarily reflect the latter.
Mar 14 2013 2:25PM
3 1
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Right, but the OP of a thread IS the thread. Its not just a post within the thread.

Mar 14 2013 2:26PM
4 1
profile picture
blindside
Posts: 5619 - Karma: 1,199
Well initially yes, but after others post it is only the first post of a thread. A thread is the system of interactions among participants; the discourse. The OP is just a post within a thread, it's the first post in it. An interesting thread may digress entirely from the OP, but that doesn't diminish the thread's merit, it only renders the OP's rating irrelevant. Thus why it shouldn't count towards overall thread rating.
Mar 14 2013 2:42PM
3 1
profile picture
Holte
Posts: 10730 - Karma: 7,744
To that regard, the number of replies to a thread is a pretty good indicator of the quality of the thread, or at least whether or not it deserves discussion (which I would define as "good quality"). Obviously NSG the exception here, but a quick glance through the first couple pages of the other forums shows that the majority of threads with more than 50 replies are pretty decent. Problem is that a lot of them are a few days, month, even years old.

But the truth is that after a week, I've mostly stopped noticing individual post ratings. Just like karma. They're so seemingly arbitrary at this point that they've become meaningless. Nobody is playing by the rules so the ratings are just white noise.

And congrats Bishop! Best of luck squeezing in a few hours of sleep here and there.
Mar 14 2013 3:17PM
3 1
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Right, but the way its set up (not philosophically) is that the OP starts the thread. The thread is a groupings of responses under a statement. So Currently its much easier to have OP tied into the thread and not ranked differently.

We can separate this though, and I do philosophically agree with you.

Mar 14 2013 3:25PM
4 1
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Thanks! This time I'm contributing a new girl skier to the industry. Maybe she can help push the sport in a few years. :)

Ratings individually are almost always white noise. That is actually the point of the way we do them now. Each rating is almost meaningless, yet when you use that data in aggregate it ends up being super good.

I will admit they actually do ever so slightly assist with ranking stuff on the homepage. If you're paying attention, there have been some decent threads make their way a bit further up as of late.

Mar 14 2013 3:30PM
4 1
profile picture
Mag
Posts: 8155 - Karma: 14,809
This thread is proof that in some cases(although it is ski gabber, which is just about as bad as nsg) this new voting method is just fucked up, skierman posts something correct, and gets destroyed, eheath posts something right, -40 instantly.

https://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/739533/
Mar 14 2013 3:36PM
4 3
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Skierman 'correct'?

That is pretty subjective. I think the new system proved flawless in this thread. The people reading the thread did not agree with Skierman's post. He was still able to make it, and still able to inflame responses - however people were able to express that they felt the point was not made in the correct way. Eheath and skierman are getting downvoted because they're being aggressive and angry. Drail is getting upvoted because he's being poignant and defending his position with maturity.

You can see that the more insightful posts are receiving upvotes and the negative without eloquence are getting downvotes.

Additionally, due to the flurry of activity within all posts, this thread has pushed up to the current hottest thread, and has made it to the top fold of the homepage.

I honestly think that if you stand back, you couldn't pick a thread that is a more perfect example of the absolute immaculate glaring success of this idea. Sure the display could be a bit more tweaked, but damn that is an absolute piece of perfection.

Additionally, everyone stating that negative opinions won't be said anymore because of thread score is proven completely wrong. People will get negative score when they're being negative and probably love every last second of it. Hell, likely it will amplify the stoke of a negative position.

I think everyone is reacting without actually stepping back for a quick second and looking at the big picture. This is working amazingly well.

Mar 14 2013 4:24PM
4 2
profile picture
Mag
Posts: 8155 - Karma: 14,809
"The very definition of hucking is throwing your spins really hard... and feel free to consider touching the ski for a split second as "grabbing"."

- skierman(-12 for that post), nothing subjective about this, people just downvoting cause they're pricks and disagree with something else in the thread/dislike him, another flaw.

"Additionally, due to the flurry of activity within all posts, this thread has pushed up to the current hottest thread, and has made it to the top fold of the homepage. "

This is a MAJOR win



It's just resulting in people downvoting eheath and skierman(people known to argue and not be a gentle pussy about it) just because they disliked them in the past

Call it what you like, but I just get the idea it caters to the newer members rather than the loyal members that have been here for years and years.
Mar 14 2013 4:32PM
4 3
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
Yeah but you can't say that the tone that skeirman is using is eloquent. He's being argumentative, and if you look at it in relation to the conversational thread its referring to, its just arguing back and forth.

"and feel free to consider touching the ski for a split second as "grabbing"." is passive aggressive and I downvoted it too. The wording of 'feel free to consider' is designed as a passive aggressive attack, and does very little for doing a good job proving the point.

There's an argument going on in there, and I fail to believe that its a vendetta against specific people causing the downvoting. Its the fact that the opinions are being expressed in an angry and hostile fashion - which is very typical eheath and skierman. Hell I'd downvote the fuck out of those guys too most of the time, because most of the time their being fucking cocks and deserve it.

I also think that its very backwards to think that its the new members that this caters to. Massive amounts of older and more mature members refuse to get involved in arguments with posts, as many times arguments are unwinnable. This gives everyone a fair playing field to score the discussion as they see fit, and for others to get a sense of whether popular opinion agrees or disagrees with what is being said.

Again - I strongly debate that this thread is a glaring success of the new system. Its working perfectly. The only thing that could be debated is if this should be considered 'top rated.

You can see its the hottest thread right now:

https://www.newschoolers.com/home/?view=discussion&sort=hot

It however is not 'top rated' of the day.

https://www.newschoolers.com/home/?view=discussion&sort=top,day

You can see that the threads that are top rated are good threads, but they are all about more positive topics, or include more elloquent discussion. The thread we're talking about is much more controversial, and it is a 'good' thread - but its good for the fact that has about 9 out of 10 available drama llamas assigned to it.

What I would be very interested in is if you unlinked the thread ratings from the post ratings and could see what the rating would be. I bet that lots of people would downrate the thread because of all the stupid bitching going on. Its gone out of the realm of good conversation and into people just fighting - and I'd be torn as whether to upvote because I liked the video or downvote because the thread has gotten super fucking annoying.

It is interesting finally to compare the top rated of the day threads (which are positive) to the triple 1800 thread (which is controversial) to this (https://www.newschoolers.com/readthread/739478.0/Future-style) which basically nobody cared about.

If you ask me, they are all ranked quite accurately.





Mar 14 2013 5:00PM
6 1
profile picture
Mag
Posts: 8155 - Karma: 14,809
God you sure put a lot of thought into your posts, impressive.

""and feel free to consider touching the ski for a split second as "grabbing"." is passive aggressive and I downvoted it too. The wording of 'feel free to consider' is designed as a passive aggressive attack, and does very little for doing a good job proving the point. "

I get what you're saying about the aggressiveness, but it seems eheath in particular is easily pissed off sure, but only when he sees something that's wrong(in M&A anyway) but I guess you're right, in this case it's subjective, and he's still pissed, idk.

"drama llamas"

Click for larger image

The hot thread/top rated thread is pretty cool, I thought it was only rated by however many upvotes it got.

I can't help but think there could be some way of having the OP rating as a different rating towards the homepage(I worded that badly but can't think how to explain)
Mar 14 2013 5:08PM
4 2
profile picture
Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22671 - Karma: 75,830
We actually put a huge amount of thought into everything we do on the site. So when I make the big posts that analyze everything like that, I'm just iterating what we've gone over for months and months (sometimes years) to make the development decisions that we do.

The hardest part when building stuff for a community like this is analyzing what its going to need next, which is often different than what people like about it right now.

I think the thing that happens is simply human emotion. Most people get really angry when they get into a debate on the internet, and then allow their hate into the post they're making. The second one person starts fighting, things just explode.

I actually write most of my long posts in a google doc for just this reason. I write them, and then edit 1-3 times to remove all hostility. I sometimes even have to walk away from the computer and calm down. The fact is though, nobody listens the moment you start slinging insults.

For the most part, I don't think there is a solution. This is something that is prevalent absolutely anywhere on the internet... hell try making a political post on facebook. Shit its human nature... if you're at a party with friends (whether pub, dinner or house) and you're engaging in off-the-cuff conversation, one wrong comment can explode into hostilities all over the place. Try loudly expressing your political opinions at the next party you're at.

This is a large reason why I think the rating system has merit. It will allow us to have a better idea of what opinions the ski community agrees with and doesn't agree with. Doesn't mean we have to do anything with that data, but we at least will have a better idea of knowing.

I do hope that more people are encouraged to express their points in a more elloquent manner. There's lots of stuff we should be talking about - especially whether touching your ski is a grab or not - but we don't get anywhere by fighting.

As for the hot/top stuff - that is where the magic comes in. We've now become conscious of a lot of really cool ways to use math to get good stuff out of our data. Most people think we're ripping off the philosophies of Reddit, when in fact its mostly just the math we're using.

As for the OP/Thread thing... we'll look into this. Its not like that in the database right now but we might be able to make tweaks.

I actually think the forums are due for an overhaul, so we can include these types of thoughts in there.

Mar 15 2013 10:34AM
5 1
All times are Eastern (-4)