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Right to bear arms?

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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
remember, when this amendment was written, everybody had a single shot, 6 foot long rifle that took a minute to reload.

that amendment would never be re-written today with the guns we have now.

it's a stupid law, and nobody should have guns but soldiers and officers of the law.

end of story.
Dec 14 2012 4:29PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11953 - Karma: 12,292
You raise a valid point. But it's the same as me going "Canada should raise tuition fees because of reasons A, B, and C." I'm voicing an opinion that ultimately will affect me in no way if changes were made. I know that's not the best example but it's the same principle.

I still don't know what the ultimate argument in this thread is since it has just degraded into a clusterfuck of legislature and opinions being hurled around.

My stance, civilians should MOST CERTAINLY be able to own guns, BUT I think our gun control legislature needs a huge overhaul. No civilian needs an automatic weapon, those are designed for the sole purpose of killing people. But civilians SHOULD have the right to own hunting rifles, side arms, and any other gun that has a justified purpose other than killing humans. I also think ONLY LICENSED MUNITION SALESMEN should be allowed to sell guns. No unlicensed bullshit. Finally, there most certainly needs to be a stricter screening process in the acquisition of firearms. No more grandfathering in.

Ultimately people need to earn the right to have a firearm. These WEAPONS demand respect, especially since they are capable of taking lives. A person needs to give them that respect and has to prove they are capable of rationally handling sed weapon.
Dec 23 2012 1:18PM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
What the US needs is armed volunteers to keep people safe. Guys like george zimmerman!
Dec 23 2012 2:02PM
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Snowboards
Posts: 42 - Karma: 35
Dont know if this is the place to ask.


Can anyone give me one reason why anyone besides military needs assault rifles ?
Dec 23 2012 2:32PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
The reasons they gave me when I asked this question was because A they are shitty hunters, and B they're fun.
Dec 23 2012 3:05PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
i know, but your opinion doesn't become invalid just because it is about something that isn't directly related to you, does it?

agree completely with all of that. i have no problem with people owning guns for hunting, sport, self-defense in their own house, etc. but i think laws need to be changed big time. the aurora shooting, virginia tech shooting, and this one were all done using legally owned weapons (yes, i know this kid took them from his mom's house, but she owned them legally), and it's unacceptable that our laws allow this to happen. yes the black market will always exist and you can't make laws to stop criminals from getting guns illegally, but it's seriously disturbing that our laws are so lax that people as mentally unstable as these shooters have easy, legal access to weapons that can do a ton of damage in the wrong hands.
Dec 23 2012 3:29PM
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Sparta
Posts: 226 - Karma: 313
I guess it comes down to who tells the story:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

either way, it demonstrates that gun related deaths and gun ownership are closely linked together. it just is ridiculous that people who argue for having the "right" to own guns are the ones with the biggest problem with guns and personal responsibility
Dec 23 2012 6:11PM
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scandy101
Posts: 460 - Karma: 19
or maybe you're retarded..
Dec 31 2012 12:11PM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
he has a point though.

listen to the rationale of any gun owner, and they just "like guns". that's why they have them. hiding behind the "safety" excuse is bullshit. you want guns cause you like shooting. admit it. guns are cool. just like to some people video games are cool, or skating is cool. it's a hobby. sadly, this hobby is costing lots of people their lives.

guns are not a method of transportation, they're not a personal safety device that guarantees your protection at all times. they're a past time that makes you feel like a real man and when in the wrong hands, cost lives in the blink of an eye.

you can argue that cars kill people too, but that's not a valid point because cars also get you from point a to b. for the hundreds of billions of car rides in america every day, there might be a few accidents. sure. but there is no real point to guns. guns are like a grown up toy. hunting is a past-time hobby. find a new one. safety isn't guaranteed with guns. find another method of protecting yourself (or start by realizing that you arent the center of the universe, nobody gives a shit about you, nobody is coming to rape and murder your family. it's ok, dont be scared of your own shadow).

your fun little past-time bullshit protect my family guns are cool mentality costs a lot of people their lives. and if people want to illegally obtain weapons, it's up to law enforcement to control them. saying a criminal has a gun therefore i should get one too is a silly argument. criminals have explosives too. so should we arm every house with c4 around the entrances so that if your door opens in the middle of the night you can detonate it? you fucking yanks make zero sense. none.
Dec 31 2012 12:26PM
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.frenchy
Posts: 18212 - Karma: 12,256
Why make fast cars that go over the speed limit then?
Dec 31 2012 12:28PM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
guns are solely used for target shooting and killing.

cars are too fast, therefore they are the same as guns?

wat?
Dec 31 2012 12:32PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,500
He says, not giving me another reason why you need one.
Dec 31 2012 12:36PM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
any way i've made my argument. i have yet to hear anything that can refute it. im all for this back and forth friendly banter, but i still just dont see a purpose to giving everybody a gun. i see a much safer america with zero guns than i do with every household having a gun. would there still be crime? of course. that is really unstoppable and up to law enforcement to control. but giving soccer moms, shmuck dads, and raging angry teens/young adults full access to them doesn't make your neighborhood any more safe.

would there be responsible gun owners out there? absolutely. but you can't realistically determine, up front, who is responsible and who isn't. you just can't know. and you also can't give guns to some people but not to others. cigarettes are legal, everyone has access to them. you dont have to show a health certificate to buy a pack of smokes. cars are legal, everyone has access to them. you don't need to take a motor control or reaction time physical examination at the car dealership. likewise, with guns being legal, everyone gets access to them. the responsible and the irresponsible. and i'd rather take guns out of the hands of responsible people in the "no gun scenario" rather than put guns into the hands of irresponsible people in the "legal gun scenario".

would you not agree?
Dec 31 2012 12:41PM
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scandy101
Posts: 460 - Karma: 19
i dont think you're understanding where the problem actually is. its not americas "gun loving culture" that causes the crime. its not the rural towns where everyone owns a gun and shoots and hunts that are where the death and crime come from. thats not even close to the issue, like that video posted earlier said, most of these rural areas and parts of the country have a lower gun crime rate than most european countries with strict gun control.

its concentrated in areas that are full of crime and gangs, ive said this a million times already but people dont seem to want to acknowledge it. 80% of our gun related death comes from gangs and organized crime. you take that out of the equation, and for a gun loving country, our stats would actually look pretty damn good...

its a cultural problem, not a problem with regulations and laws. look at places like chicago and DC, with the strictest gun control laws in the country, yet they have some of the highest gun crime rates in the country. im not saying that the crime is a result of the strict gun control, im saying it doesnt matter. these gang members and career criminals that are 80% of our problem arent going into gun stores and getting a background check so they can purchase their traceable gun.

people do not realize that we have a gang problem thats as bad as some of the most gang ridden countries in the world. most of those countries are a prime example of how strict gun control does not work. we arent comparable to canada and most of europe. we have 1.4 million gang members.

stricter gun control will keep the rednecks in nebraska from acquiring an AK to shoot cans with. but its not gonna do shit to address the actual problem. we have a fucked up culture in our inner cities that breeds gang members and criminals, we have a huge problem with mexican gangs in socal and the southern US thats growing our gang count like crazy, and we have drug trade violence as bad as anywhere. id like know how taking billy bob's AR away so he cant shoot critters is going to effect the gang and criminal violence in chicago, where our regulations dont mean shit to their illegal gun trade.
Dec 31 2012 1:00PM
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scandy101
Posts: 460 - Karma: 19
i need one because i target shoot and hunt. my guns arent used for murder, they are used for perfectly legal an acceptable activities.

can you explain to me why you would only need an "assult rifle" if your a shitty hunter?
Dec 31 2012 1:03PM
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PASKIINGSUCKS
Posts: 9097 - Karma: 777
I would not agree. Taking away rights of any kind simply becuase of the abuses of few is just absurd.

In my eyes guns are a tool for hunting. Ban thirty round mags fine. Tighten laws for buying and carrying fine. But to put forth the idea of taking away all guns is just close minded.

Look at all the death they cause??? Why don't you look at all the good that comes from hunting by millions upon millions of americans. Food on the table sir that I don't have to pay for. Millions of hours of family bonding, outdoor education, and wildlife conservation. All from a sport that teaches people how to be respectable individuals.
Dec 31 2012 1:08PM
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MNS
Posts: 5386 - Karma: 3,241
Life isn't fair. Deal with it.
Dec 31 2012 1:18PM
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scandy101
Posts: 460 - Karma: 19
this. ish.

taking away guns and tightening gun control is just another way to take away the citizens responsibility and self accountability, which i think is a big cultural problem thats partly fueling our crime problem. regulating the shit out of people to the point where they arent responsible for their actions, and feel entitled, wont keep people from commiting crimes. instead of you fucked up, its your fault, heres your punishment. now its you fucked up, what caused you to make this decision? its societys fault, what do we as a society need to do to make sure this happens again?

unfortunately we are already at the point where its no longer the individuals fault, its our fault, our culture made him do it. people have this "you owe me" mentality where they feel the government/others need to be responsible for taking care of them and keeping them from making bad decisions, and now its no longer your own fault if you screw up.

Dec 31 2012 1:24PM
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MNS
Posts: 5386 - Karma: 3,241
Umm, sorry but I listen to lots of music and disagree with the lyrics. It frightens me that you have inferred you agree with all lyrics of songs you listen to. I hope you don't like "pumped up kicks"
Dec 31 2012 1:24PM
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scandy101
Posts: 460 - Karma: 19
only problem here is... guns exist. there is no such thing as a zero guns in the US. especially not with the gang and crime problem we have. it will be far from zero guns and we will still have a huge gun crime problem.
Dec 31 2012 1:26PM
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act.resist
Posts: 8875 - Karma: 513
I wonder what the world would be like if guns were never invented
Dec 31 2012 1:28PM
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scandy101
Posts: 460 - Karma: 19
probably the same, we would still be killing each other like crazy just like we did before guns.

problem is, humans are smart, and we make tools, we will always try to create tools to accomplish tasks effectively.
Dec 31 2012 1:35PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
Buyback programs work super well and are most effective in relieving the groups you're concerned about (i.e. low income urban populations) of their guns... just saying. If you were to limit the market for new guns and take steps to remove the ones already there from the market, it would gradually be harder to get ahold of them. The point being, this is not by any means an insurmountable problem. It'll just take a while. The fact that you can't solve a problem overnight doesn't mean you shouldn't take steps to solve it in the long run.
Dec 31 2012 1:43PM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
do you think there's any more good that comes of hunting that couldn't come of taking part in another hobby or sport with your friends and family?
Dec 31 2012 1:51PM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
well said.
Dec 31 2012 1:52PM
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act.resist
Posts: 8875 - Karma: 513
True, the problem is never gonna be solved. I mean mass shootings can be stopped. But mass killings will still happen.
Dec 31 2012 1:52PM
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scandy101
Posts: 460 - Karma: 19
gangs arent going to give up their guns, and any buyback program wont eliminate the black market gun trade. even if it were somehow possible to eliminate every gun in the US, you would still have guns being brought in illegally, and it would only fuel the illegal gun trade. you somehow eliminate the gang and crime problem completely, and then i guess we would be pretty much gun free, but thats impossible.. and if we did rid the country of every gang member and career criminal then hey! we wont have a crime problem, so no point in gun control!

buy yeah basically, you cant eliminate guns just like we can stop drug trafficking and just like prohibition didnt work/created crime.
Dec 31 2012 1:54PM
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scandy101
Posts: 460 - Karma: 19
eh i dont think mass shootings can be stopped, regardless of any regulations people will still be able to access guns.
Dec 31 2012 1:57PM
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act.resist
Posts: 8875 - Karma: 513
Oh yea, for sure. I was talking about if they had never existed
Dec 31 2012 2:06PM
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Anathema
Posts: 21048 - Karma: 5,061
you're right. and that 80% of criminals who disobey the law will be there regardless.

it's the other 20% that would be eliminated if you remove accessibility. and that is something that we can control. the accidental deaths, the crimes of passion, the violence between citizens who otherwise wouldn't kill had guns not been available to them.

these are the crimes that are the most pertinent in society any way. the school shootings aren't done by criminal masterminds who go through the black market to obtain their weapons. they're done by angry kids whose parents have guns in their closets. parents who wouldn't have had guns laying around had they not been allowed to legally purchase them. they're done by shmuck everyday guys who go home one day and snap, grab a gun, and go on a killing spree. these tragedies are facilitated solely by the easy access of guns.

and you're right about the cultural part, but you can't change the cultural mindset. all you can do is take away the tools that are being incorrectly used. if someone has a history of cars accidents and dangerous driving, they dont put the person back in driving school and try to re-educate them and teach them to be safe. they just take your fucking car away. you cant fix stupid. all you can do is not give stupid people dangerous shit. i hate going back to car analogies, but "dangerous tool" comparisons continue to appear in this thread.

and yes, the responsible people are going to suffer the acts of a few stupid people. that's the way it works in an all-or-nothing society. you've collectively proven you dont know how to use them, so collectively you lose your privileges. that's the way i believe it should be, and i also believe that you have collectively shown that you are more irresponsible with guns than you are responsible, so they've gotta go. sorry hunters and target shooters, find another hobby. too many people have died as a result of incorrect gun use so that you can have grown up playtime out in the forest.
Dec 31 2012 2:12PM
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TinyTigers
Posts: 484 - Karma: 213
Bear in bind I haven't read much of this thread, so I'm most likely repeating a bunch of points that have already been mentioned. That being said, I respect your argument and understand it has validity. However, like someone else pointed out, the amount of guns that exist in our country is absurd. The reason the policies you talk about in countries like Japan work so well is because that's how it's been for a while. Trying to enforce a policy to take away or ban guns in a place where they're so abundant is going to be extremely difficult.

Now, you talked about the convenience factor for these kids and how having easy access to guns helped facilitate these mass shootings. I certainly agree with this, which is why I strongly believe gun ownership in this country is something that should require a license, proper training, and more regulation than what currently exists (much like hunter safety). But what you said about shooting and hunting being a hobby simply is not true. I wish gun owners could go find a new hobby, but that simply won't happen. Most gun owners, including myself, are extremely passionate about shooting. If they're not passionate about guns, they're passionate about the right to own them, which leads me to my next point.

You mentioned that the second amendment was written when guns were primitive, and that the same thing would not have been done considering the firearms that exist today. The second amendment has absolutely nothing to do with the guns themselves, but the principal of defending against a corrupt government. This lady says it much better than I do (I'm sure you've seen this before). I'm sure this video will also spark a shitstorm.



Dec 31 2012 2:58PM
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scandy101
Posts: 460 - Karma: 19
So, knowing we have around 12,000 gun related homocides per year, 20 percent of that is 2400, so thats 2400 deaths out of 310 million people. im not sure what the statistics are for the 64 million registered gun owners, id assume they account for only a percentage of that 2400. im 100% fine with living with the risk that ill be one of those 2400 deaths if it means 310 million people have the right to bear arms. and how do we know if many of those 2400 deaths wouldnt happen? with another weapon, or with a now illegally acquired gun? there would surely be more criminal/gang member's killing citizens, knowing that civilians are now pretty much guaranteed to be unarmed.

id argue that taking away the tools that are being incorrectly used is only contributing to the cultural problem, its trying to regulate the responsibility out of us.

i would also argue that we have not collectively proven that we dont know how to use them, 64 million law abiding gun owners have proven that collectively we are pretty damn responsible with firearms. unfortunately we have whack jobs like this school shooting kid, who id hardly classify as your typical american gun owner (just a pissed off kid who stole his moms guns) that get all the attention and make the huge responsible majority of gun owners look bad.

speaking of proving we know how to use something responsibly, does the same not go for cars (yes i know the car analogy again, but i think its very relevant considering cars account for a huge amount of death and misuse) have we not collectively shown that we cant responsibly used cars more than we have with guns? everytime somebody drives drunk, they are knowingly endangering peoples lives, same goes for people who text, talk on the phone, drive reckless etc..

anyway, i think we should be able to own guns, drive cars, drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, fly in planes, etc.. even though these things collectively have killed millions, id rather live in a world where im free to do as i please rather than be restricted up the butthole just for a perceived sense of safety... im also a huge believer in that the government needs to fear the people, and the people need to have power over the government, not the other way around. unfortunately its already the other way around, and i see no sense in making the problem worse. and implementing questionable gun laws would make that problem much much worse.

i can tell you've got your opinion on guns and it doesnt seem like anything will change that. but my main point is that guns in the hands of legal, registered gun owners are not the problem, and regulations are not the solution. banning guns or implementing stricter gun control is only an emotional response to create a false sense of safety and say we did something about it. and its probably a consideration because we dont know how to fix the actual problem.
Dec 31 2012 3:47PM
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7springsprod
Posts: 2661 - Karma: 3,181
Just bought myself one of these:
Click for larger image
Dec 31 2012 4:08PM
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