Fate

are you blasted?





(zach)


help me get an iPod!

The problem with your argument, (which is very interesting and well broken down), is there are infinite variables. With a person in a closed room and a ball maybe you could predict there reaction and actions by your reaction analyzing. But still even in that closed situation you may not be able to tell what memory might pop into their head and what they might start thinking about besides the ball.

As for in the real world, you can make any decision at any time, making vast numbers of possibilities, and then any other person can make decisions that will eventually effect you. So with your infinite paths, and someone elses that will ultimatly effect you (your parents, friends, people you know, people who you run into) you cannont accuratly use your reaction equations beacuse as soon as you put in infinity, there is no way to know. Dig it?

Good point. I thought about infinity for a while and how it could be the source of randomness that would lead to not having a predestined fate. But the problem is that matter is not infinite. All the matter in our universe has a definite mass. The only thing that I can see that actually is associated with Infinity is the size and the borders of the universe and the temperature and denisty of true black holes. So far those are the only anomolies, and if i then thus believe them, then there is no fate and I have a true choice. But then how do these infinities interact with me and my brain when i go to make a decision? It doesnt seem like they are related at all. I would have to have some source of random behavior to produce these choices. So is there an infinite on the very small scale? Quantum? Or can that be predicted by variables too?
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Rowen

'Aren't you Buzz Lightyear?'
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'URAAAAFWAAAGAAA!!!'

i like to believe in true choice and free will; that there is no pre-determined course and that you can shape your future.

but in my own experience, i think i'm fated to fail. my life is a story of nothing going right, even against my attempts to correct it. and so, unfortuantely, i have to conclude that fate, in whatever mathmatical, formulaic sense, has royally fucked me.

i'm not one to bitch usually, but this has gotten me thinking on the bigger scale. i guess i'm just applying your thinking to my screwed up excuse for a life, but now that i think about it, i have no explination for my always, always getting the shit end of the stick.

i guess nice guys do fininsh last, eh?
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you cannot say that 'if you know all the variables' ...they are called variables becasue they vary, therefore, you cannot know them. The equation is unsolvable...and an interesting quote from a great norwegian author to sum it up...

'If out brain was simple enough to understand it, we would be too stupid to understand it after all'

(I might have butchered it a little, but you get the point)




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haha copy and paste

Sookhon De'Snutz

yeah...I read the book like a year ago (in a different language too)




*******************

EUROPE KICKS ASS
___________________
Useless Fact of the Moment:
'The starfish is one of the only animals who can turn it's stomach inside-out. '

^hahaha ONE of the ONLY ahahaha lmao

hmmm I had to turn off my music to concentrate on this. And open another window so I could read what you wrote and think as I replied.

True, matter is finite, but since we do not know the amount of this matter, or how it reacts or in any way how it behaves, it may as well be infinite. Also, the possibilites of reactions, occurences, and happenings of the particles are as i believe, infinite.

Now as a matter of predicting reactions you would have to be able to predict everything in the universe happening, earthquakes, stock markets, supernovae and such. You would have to completely understand all matters of physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, business etc etc and know what every person is thinking and about to do at every moment. And if you have to know what every person is about to do at every moment, then you have to have already invented your mindreading predictor machine that will determine your fate.

What I mean is, if two people are talking, to know exactly how one person will react, you have to know how the other will react, and so you are trapped with a lack of knowledge. In a one person, closed situation, it would be much easier to tell the reaction, but in the real world, next to impossible.

Sorry this message changed so much, I was thinking while writing.

You inspired me to start a cult. The philosophical cult...message me to join. Rekker you're in.

It's a unfortunate truth that one might have to accept, but the fact of the matter is, you have to choose, fate or choice. In the ideal of fate, which is so rigid, everything is governed by that single rule. Which would conclude many things: time and space as we know it is a linier plain of existence travelling in ONE direction. God or some higher force must exist, because if your fate was chosen randomly, such a concept would be useless and would simply exist because we exist. And who is to say that that higher force is not also governed by fate aswell. Which brings to point the idea that perhaps the hierchy of power goes on forever, or that there is one person or thing up there actually making a descision or choice...

Another restriction of fate is that if you were to learn your fate, or perhaps predict it through science, then there would be nothing you could do to stop it. Or more to the point, anything that you would try to do to stop it, wouldve already been in the plan anyway. Fate is all encompassing. Which means that if you were to learn your own, then that would still be within in the bounds of your own destiny. Or more simply, you were meant to learn your destiny. Ultimatly it is a 'total' argument. Meaning that there is no dispute to it's existence.

Now the real question is, is there a purpose. When it comes to infinity, if fate exists, infinity cannot. But only if there is a purpose. A plan for us or the stars and planets or whoever. And for their to be a purpose, there has to be a 'planner' a force that has this plan in mind. I like to call this the force of nature. Something that extends past the world of plants and trees and animals, which transcends even into space and time itself. And knowing the patterns of nature on earth through evolution, we can deduct that the force of nature must be intelligent. It can adapt, it can grow and it can eliminate that which is hindering its progress. Extend this possibility to the idea of space, time and fate, and you have a bonified G-O-D. Knowing this now, there is someone makeing a choice (albiet a very uncompassionate one) to ensure something...or perhaps prepare for something, or even create something.

The idea that there is nothing behind fate would just boggle me, only because there would be there is no meaning to existence at all. We are given a destiny...for what!? But the idea that there is someone running the machine of fate, is hugely ironic, because even if those who govern us are being governed themselves, there must be a top, and end,a big boss. Someone has to be makeing a choice.

I am a chronic believer in fate. Here are my reasons-
everything happens because of events preceeding to these events, which happens because of events preceeding to those, etc. If you look at it, you cant change the same past that creates present and future events, so therefore you can never control what will happen in the future or right now.
This is where logic contradicts itself, because you can prove there is a fate through logical deduction, what i just did preceeding it, but fate itself is an illogical concept. It is illogical because if the general past creates the present, then wouldnt everybody be pretty much the same? The reason being environment. Environment changes your set options of what you can do in the present, and it also prepares you in the future for the understanding and looking at what options you can do for certain situations. So in a way it's a bit of a snowball effect.
HOWEVER, the way you deal with different situations through optionizing is not technically 'free choice' either. We have all heard that all of our cognitive and understanding processes are just acts of physics(including the probabilities of quantum mechanics) and chemistry melded together in biological limits.
So if this is the case, we have no free will to make decisions. These decisions are applied to occurences that we cannot control because we cannot control the past. These events, and our dealings with these events soon become past, and since we cannot change the past they will become the next present or our future. In other words, we cannot control ANY aspects of our future. Therefore fate must exist, pbly by accident.
The biggest argument against the 'no free-will theory' is simply this. Our decisions are limited by physics and chemistry, yet all of the decisions that we must make involve but do not surpass these limits. Yet anyway.
I find this example is done very well in 2001:a space oddyssey. For the first time ever, a person is being given a thought that cannot occur because of these limitations, and he must be reborn.



Cuddle? You fag!

well done guys this is actually a very good thread

i myself like to believe that i have free will and have the power to control my life and destiny. whether this is at all possible is yet to be seen. if there is a God and we were put here for a reason/purpose there goes free will because what we are put here for is already predetermined (this is all i got i just realized i have a philosophy paper due tomorrow i havent started well see ya later)



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in response to gmac03, what you say is kinda ironic if you think about it.
I am a believer in fate, but i also think our deathbed choice is the only real choice we will ever make. It could be a number of things, acceptance, epiphanies(they can be a choice as well), or your beliefs as you slowly fade away.



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who thinks there is such a thing as 'luck'
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