Are contests going to be all about triples?

here is my opinion.

I don't think that freeskiers doing triples is "turning it into aerials". If you think about it, what makes aerials so lame? Is it what the athletes are actually doing? I don't think so. They are skiing off some of the largest jumps and doing multiple flips and spins. That is pretty badass if you ask me. What makes aerials lame is the rules. You call a trick, which is subject to limitations, you hit a jump that has been shaped to exact specs, and you must do it the "correct" way.

You know what happens when we say "you can't do triples"? Skiing becomes aerials. We can squeeze right in there between moguls and aerials. We absolutely cannot use rules to limit what a skier can do in a competition. Our sport was pretty much born from this principle and we must keep it.

I think there is some physical limitation do what a person can do. If we want to limit this there are other options. I think the best one is changing up the courses. We do a pretty good job at this but still how many slopestyle comps are like two or three non-technical rails or a cannon box, followed by three or four tables? What will probably happen if we keep three huge tables in a row is people will start throwing three huge triples. I think we could think up some awesome courses that have no features that can only be hit one way. Something where skiers will be able to get creative with their trick but also with their lines. We have been seeing some crazy new ideas with weird angle landings and could totally do away with some generic tables to put in new features.

the best analogy I can think of is NASCAR. When the cars started going to fast to be safe they did two things. One was put on restrictor plates to slow down the drivers. This leads to racing that is boring as hell. It's all about the stragety and not about the racing. The other thing they did was put smaller tracks. Instead of limiting the drivers to essentially a fixed speed, they limited the speed the drivers could race at by an indirect method and the racing remained exciting...

i agree with the general consensus that trips will be everywhere and win golds this year. and that this is probably not the best thing for our sport. but how can you judge style? style is too individualistic and i think that idolizing one particular style, or way of skiing, would be more detrimental to our sport

People will inevitably be throwing triples now that they have been done, but I really hope they don't take over the slopestyle scene. The problem right now is that the judges' have a 'spin to win' mentality, though they should meet in the middle between style and tech. The thing about style based judging is that it is totally opinionated, so one judge may give a run a 70 while another judge will give it a 90. Tech based judging is much easier to reach a consensus on. I also think that if style based judging comes into play and the only winners are the ones throwing a certain trick, then that trick will win every comp. (Example: if Henrik wins 4 comps this year with a nose butter dub, then the following year all we will see are nose butter dubs.) I want to see a judging system where someone doing super stylish zero spins and cork 5's can have a chance against a guy throwing a dub 14 octo grab.

I also think changing up the courses a bit would help. Then line choosing would be just as vital as the tricks being thrown. There could be lines that cater to the big spinners (not ridiculous mega-jumps that people can easily get a triple on, mind you), the rail jocks, the style-focused guys, and hybrids of all of them.

Lastly, I think X Games would have to be run by someone other than ESPN. ESPN will keep the judging as 'spin to win' simply because of the draw to non-skiers to see someone do a triple cork 1440 and risk their life in doing it. A style based comp would not draw nearly as much revenue from those outside of skiing, leading to a significant loss in revenue and the possible withdrawal of ESPN from skiing.

inb4 delorme hucks a quad backy into pow

Actually... VERY interesting point. Subjective style could be difficult. However, see back to my amped 2 analogy, and watch that video closely. They calculate style by fluidity of movement.

Personally, I'd say that you could judge it by fluidity and smoothness of motion, with total lack of 'flailing'. One wave of a finger and you're docked massive points.

So if you just do everything extremely slowly and smoothly, and completely flawless. You'd have to go huge too... so like for a 540 to beat a dub 12, you'd have to land two inches before the end of the landing and stomp the balls out of it.

I am DOWN! Let's make this happen, newschool needs this.

Heres the thing Bishop.

Quick interjection - what an awesome discussion.

Everyone on here should start and take part in more awesome discussions.

Alot of contest judges now are X-mogul or aerialist judges and never really were freestyle skiers. I think that down the road when our current generation of pros become judges they will be able to judge style. Freeskiing is too new, it doesn't have an older generation that was immersed in it who will be capable of fully understanding style and technical tricks.

don't scare me like that

i feel like big air is going to go for triples. and i think that slopestyle is going to basically stay where it is know.

i think you get tom wallisch qualifiying second and bobby first and Tom comes in with a 94 and Bobby Brown wants to beat it, well see a triple attempt. It just takes the right situation. I bet Henrik will try dub 7 in big air as well this year.

Also I think video contest should be more prominent as major comps. Like JOSS or the one that Dale always got ripped off at.

I think triples are as far as we are going to go in terms of common tricks a.k.a. tricks that can be preformed in comps. People aren't going to start hucking quads in comps, because there is simply not a practical way to get the perfect run-in and jump needed to preform one. Sure you could have a massive booter, and have people bomb the whole mountain, but a jump like that could never be incorporated into a slopestyle run. Bottom line, there is no practical, safe way for people to throw anything greater than a triple in a comp.

i think it would be the greatest thing if china comes to the olympics with a bunch of young kids who havent done anything but train in the 4 years preceding the olympics and can throw crazier tricks than anybody else...but then lose because they literally have no style. if the judges hold to a standard like that i would be a happy person

all i know is i'm going to continue to ski in the way that is most enjoyable to me. if future spins take over and there is no style then i won't watch comps anymore. boo fucking hoo. i ski for fun and the lifestyle of being in the mountains, and thats what i will continue to do till i die

Pretty soon there are going to be futureflips.

its already been said a few times, people have different opinions on style, some people love big slow cork 5 blunts, some love stomped dub 12s, i love both, i also thinks it makes more sense for the dub 12 to win because, well, its a comp!

But why does a comp HAVE to score moar spins higher?

On the topic of style
One aspect of it is the element of smoothness and effortless and smooth you make a trick look.
But i think the other one that trumps it is that through style and creativity skiing can be more then just a sport or activity, it can be a form of expression. It can allow people to differentiate themselves from others and also build themselves a foundation that can turn skiing into almost an art form.
what i love about skiing is how much fun i have doing it and the feeling of accomplishment and progression but the creativity that can be involved in it is what i really find makes it the best sport in the world.
I LOVE SKIING
if they wanna do triples let them see if i give two fucks

because thats how comps work?
i mean i dont know much about this example but there must be a reason there is no footage of andy and pep in the x games with hellbents and no poles.
i always thought that comps were about showing the top level riders in a our sport ( not to take anything  away from the other crowd) to the general public. i honestly doubt skiing would be in the next olympics if everyone was throwing cork 3 and 5 variations in all the big comps

couple things, i think that it would be rad if comps had a judge for technicality and a judge for style, each one would have the same amount of say in the riders score, one judge could score a 90 and the other a 70 and the rider would have an 80 point run. This would allow both aspects to be judged equally and make the athletes focus on both style and difficulty. Another topic to address- why does everyone feel like style is smoothness and needs to be judged on it? Style is individuality, putting your own spin on a well known trick. Style should be scored in terms of originality, individuality and freshness. Also cooler slopestyle courses would allow for a way cooler and more viewer friendly comp scene. Courses with multiple lines, more rail setups and different jumps (hips, huge stepdowns, 40 foot park "cliffs" ect) would make for better slopestyle skiing then just tripples quads and all that. Newschoolers should have a massive comp. Rail jam, slopestyle, big air and vid comp, 50,000 dollar purse and a winner take all type deal. Have a unique judging format and slopestyle course. Between that, NSTV and the website itself you guys could take over the sport...

yes please

bingo.

I bet there will be quads in 2014/2015, it'll just take someone to build a big enough jump.

You're missing the point entirely.

 First of all, this is your logic: That's the way it is because that's the way it is. Well, the purpose of this thread is to suggest that comps could be different than they currently are, so you reiterating how contests are presently judged doesn't contribute.

Secondly, you're creating a strawman in saying it has to be either dub 12's or cork 3's and 5's. No one is suggesting that less spinning or flipping is inherently "better", or that a well executed cork 3 should be scored higher than an even "mediocrely" performed dub 12 (does such a thing exist even?). Bishop is pointing out that it's possible to in essence quantify "style" which he holds to be the quality of execution, control, fluidity and lack of extraneous "sloppy" movement. Now, I'm not saying he's got it just right, nor am I unequivocally agreeing that it's feasible to pull off in a realtime judging environment, but I think it's important to look at the failings of our closest analogs and learn from them and it's a good question to ask (even if it's been done A LOT).

For example, if you show someone, even a novice, two cork 7s with the same grab, but different landings, levels of amplitude, and different body positions, done by different riders, I bet there would be something approaching consensus about which was better. I think this fact alone, writing off the need for "algorithims" for the time being, suggests that it is actually possible to judge style. Obviously it isn't nearly that cut and dry, and that doesn't account for difficulty diffs between different yet similar tricks—nor does it solve the problem of accounting for preference or taste— but I think it still suggests that competent judges can spot subtle variations.

You're RIGHT about one thing, comps should be about showing the top level riders in our sport, but it seems that you and I and others see how that should be done differently.

Simply put, I don't buy into the idea that the person who performs the most rotations around any number of axis is by default the "top level rider". I think creativity in terms of grabs, body positions, adding modifiers like butters and shiftys, and variety/"uniqueness" of axis should be more heavily weighted. Stressing those things, along with flawlessness of execution (and I don't mean robotic execution, or that there's a "right and wrong" way to do tricks) and fluidity would fundamentally alter contests. Judging in many sports, particularly Olympic ones, is based on "overall impression" and is mostly subjective, and I think style can be judged in that way. Basically, I think style and tech difficulty can coexist, and that a refocusing on style and execution could be a really positive thing.

And, I disagree with yours and others suggestion that casual audiences will only tune in if people are doing the biggest, fastest, and most spinny flippy tricks. If that logic held, aerials and diving would be hugely popular spectator sports, and yet they aren't. Even at XGames, Dumont's dub front beat out PK and Jon's superior tricks (in terms of tech diff, and degrees of rotation and flip), and while his USA nationality was certainly a factor, the bottom line was that his trick was smooth as fuck and looked perfect, and had a degree of effortlessness.

A huge part of the reason that the audience seemingly responds to MOAR SPINNYFLIPPY!! is because we've conditioned them to do so! All the hype surrounding X is about "who will do a triple? Who will add that extra 180?!" They've been TOLD to value those aspects of our sport over all others, likely because it's easier to stress that aspect in 30 second contest intro packages. If instead, announcers, commentators, and judges stressed other factors, there would be a shift. In fact, encouraging diversity in tricks and runs would inject the sport with more excitement, because I'll tell you that right now, casual onlookers can't tell riders a part, not at all, and thus because everyone is doing the same thing, it becomes less impressive and monotonous.

I'm not trying to come across a comp hater. I enjoy them, I'm a faithful viewer and have watched each and every comp that I possibly could/can since 2000, but I would love to see something of a comp revolution as would many others.

holy shit i have no idea what you just said
i re-read the 2nd paragraph like 3 times, please include a TL;RD and ill try to respond, im a ski bum not a professional intellectual debater

yup.




but my prediction: triples will become standard for big air, a quad or two will be hucked on some massive booter, and that will be about it. In the comp scene I don't think we'll ever see quads. slopestyle will stay dubs, but will be crazy dubs like dub bios and shit with tweaked as fuck grabs. Although I bet there will be the odd slopestyle course that will build an 80 foot booter at the end so trips will be possible.

sucks to be illiterate. His post makes a lot of sense to me. Well reasoned. Style isnt one certain thing, but it is possible to judge

i hate future spins and all that shit, i didn't even enjoy watching xgames as much this year. i could predict everyones run...double double double. oh hey big air comp...double double double double double...GAY

I know this is kinda off topic but i was reading that some smart people did some math and figured out that a sextuple cork (6 rotations) is the biggest physically possible to do. This would require some gnaar air though. They were talking about snowboarding but im prety sure the calculations would be about the same. If the sport continues to head in this "the more spins the better" direction we might someday be looking at sextuple corks

k bro, i just really could be fucked to read all that, maybe later

It's not illiteracy it's the difference in language. Thredboskier speaks purely Australian and that post is in American. American is a hard language to learn. Australian schools only teach British and basic Canadian as second and third languages.

jesus christ.....what the fuck happened?

could a mod help and delete all but one of these novels? My apologies to all.

haha yehas pretty much, Australian and internet talk, thus that post was just a big wall of text to me :p

Are the differences really that pronounced?

I read my post back, and it's definitely wordy and a bit much given the subject, but it wasn't intentionally so, and I don't think it's that tough to understand. I'll give it a shot....

TL;DR:

Saying "comps are what comps are" in a thread about what comps could/should be doesn't further the discussion.

It's not all dub cork 12's OR cork 3's, lots of room for grey (I used the UK spelling just for you guys!), and further, Bishop isn't saying that slower/less spinning should trump faster/more, just that it shouldn't be the be all end all.

Casual viewers would respond to style focused comps as much as, if not more than, they do now, which is admittedly very little. They value big spins and tricks because that's what commentators and judges have told them to value. Dumont proved that crowds respond to stylish (smooth?) tricks.

We should look at aerials and moguls and learn from the mistakes those sports have made in attempting to both appeal to outside audiences and control the sports direction.

I tried.

Also: I think it's perfectly legitimate for people to take the stance, what with the growth and the ease to produce ski media nowadays, to write off contests as a "necessary evil" for the sport. They just don't effect us, the diehard skiers, and our day to day enjoyment of being on skis. It is though a nice way for athletes to make some dough. I personally wish they could support themselves in filming, but it is what it is.

i think that slopestyle contests will face more rules and resitrictions in the future. e.g. with a 4 kicker jump line, you`ll have at least one jump that will only be judged on style, so riders will be forced to push towards this direction. maybe also taking creativity into consideration on the rail features or give a "creativity" score at the end.

BTW - mega newfound respect for you on this post. Extrodinarily elloquent and well put together. Bravo sir, more discussions should go like this.

You actually bring up an extremely interesting point as well - and that is the announcer's job in guiding the audience to know what is exciting. We've all somehow conditioned ourselves to think that people want that last 180 or that last flip that is one more.... yet there are massive sports which are boring as hell that don't do this.

Baseball, Golf and figure skating are three sports that come to mind, where people are perfectly well entertained (and in massive scale) by super subtle nuances to the sport.

Of course, there is a lower barrier of entry to those sports, and more people have grown up with them (well, maybe not figure skating) but still, there is some proof here that elegance can get a TV audience.

So in fact, its not only the judges its the announcers and the entire production that would need to be geared toward making style matter.

One thing that is also interesting is that if you actually sit down with some of these 'regular people' and force them to watch a big air contest (of course my research is not scientific but anecdotal) - what I've always seen is that they say "Why does everyone do the same trick all the time?" Boredom in fact sets in faster due to the crazy flippy-spinny-crossy tricks they see. You even might be able to infer that they crave the extra rotation because at least it is different from everything else they are seeing.

On the point of the viewing audience - I'd even gander a substantial bet that you could have people entertained more if you were able to get the athletes to do all kinds of different tricks within the contest. Classic aerials is an order of magnitude more difficult and they achieve insane amplitude in comparison to what we're doing... yet the viewing audience is bored to tears.

There is a flaw there. The viewing audience doesn't think that there is a difference between the mechanics of classic aerials and the new form. Likely (again inferring) its the cool attitude of snowboarding and the hype around it that makes them prefer the drastically simplified tricks in big air for both snowboard and ski.

It would be super interesting to do a blind test with a total gaper to see what they prefer.  Like would a gaper think a super tweaked out octograb switch 7 was cooler than a hucked dub 12 mute grab? 

We already know that gapers go ape shit for straight flips ("CAN YOU DO A BACKFLIP? DO A BACKFLIP! ERMEGERD DO A BERKFRIP!!!!!11")

It would be super interesting to see what corked and regular axis spins gapers prefer.

Triples are dope cause they make everything else look so much better

Some student should do a blind study about the visual appeal of off axis and regular spins.  That would be the coolest paper ever. 

Right!  Figure skating banned back flips and flips.  I remember thinking how stupid it was to do it.  But, they took charge or their sport and kept skiing jocks from "crossing over".... and now figure skating has NO PLACE FOR ME AND MR. BISHOP. 

Everyone is making very valid points with regards to this discussion. Unfortunately, because I'm at work I won't be able to add a wordy and well thought out opinion on the subject.

Right Again.... but... history tells us that this can backfire too.  "BALLET SKIING"...  Ballet was the most diverse competitive skiing genre EVER!  Then as the '88 Olympics came into view, the judging criteria changed and some dudes and gals on the side of the hill (judges) had to figure our how to score choreography, difficulty and "over all impression(ie style)."  The formula was each trick was put into a category.  If you invented a trick you had to "qualify" it for the judges.  The result was that people who did big tricks and a formulaic form of choreography that looked like "bad aerobics" won.  Gone were the days of speed ballet, funky skiers throwing cool tricks, and styling skiers who remind me of "street skating" of today.  In other words, trying to "be" an Olympic Sport killed what was cool in Ballet AND the general public found the "new" ACRO to be ridiculous.  So judges judging style can be dangerous, BUT not impossible.

Steele Spence and his crew have had some victories.  Duncun Adams making the podium at the Copper Mtn Grand Prix in Half Pipe is an example of style and unconventional difficulty getting some love.  But, it is difficult because judging style means that the judges have to have a clue about many different styles and reward it justly.  Another point is that STYLE IS DIFFICULT.  So, it should be awarded as difficult.  Switch straight air, killer Zero spin can wow any crowd and if the announcers and judges get on board then we can see more diversity in contests.

so why hasn't there been a contest judging revolution yet? and when/how will it come about?

Great example:  She could relate to that hand drag 3.  It was accessible to her.  Skiing has been so focused on "pushing the limits" that we've alienated most of the public anyway.  People love to imagine themselves "being a pro."  We can have contests where "style" out weighs difficulty, but the X Bull crowd is determined that excessive risk is the draw.  I say no...STYLE is king.

Yo JUDGES!  Steele, Phil, Chris, Mike... you're getting called out!  Where u at?

we need more versatility of double, Double rodeo from (Harlaut) double bio (Gagnier) double mi

Sombody else will start doing butter dubs, more guys needs to start throwing gnarly grabs like the Gagnier brothers, and yes, more trippels will be seen,cause regualer dub 10, 12 is over used!

Did people se the screaming C OCTO from Vince Gagnier at Lodonfreeze.. it was nuts!!