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presidential debate (DAMN SON)

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fourdskate
Posts: 1119 - Karma: 10
from my point of view, Kerry is ripping Bush a new one. Kerry has presented a lot of points about Iraq that are really legit and that Bush isn't defending that well.
'I would do it, but i threw my back out humpin your mom last night, nooch'-Jason Mewes
Sep 30 2004 7:49PM
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ESB
Posts: 9273 - Karma: 10,647
'kerry isnt laying down any plan for if he was elected, i wont vote for ANYONE who cant do more then just tell the american people what the other guys doing WRONG..i want to hear what a canidate is gonna DO..and i think Bush is much more clear on what he wants to do then kerry'

H3O made this comment earlier and there seemed to be a lot of support behind it. Bush may be more clear on what he wants to do than Kerry, but I surely wouldn't vote on that alone. You might want to look at just what it is that he plans to do, because conviction doesn't mean shit if you're convinced to do something stupid. I would base my vote more on a candidate's ability to effectively respond to crises, threats, and political impasses.

Wayne: 'I don't own a gun, let alone many guns that would necessitate the use of a rack. What am I going to do... with a gun rack?'
Sep 30 2004 11:19PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
^You know, I wasn't satisfied with the format, but for a different reason. The extensions weren't well planned out. They basically gave the rebutter a free cheap-shot at the guy answering the question, and they seemed to be granted to Bush whenever he wanted them. Kerry didn't seem to want them very often. Anyways, I think if they were asking each other questions, that those questions would be pretty damned loaded, and worded in such a way as to inevitably influence people's opinion of the other guy. Plus, they would have been written up by the aides, not the candidates, and suddenly the whole thing is less objective. Dan's questions were, on the whole, not too shabby. I liked the one about the personal character flaws of the opponent.

------------
In a haze
A stormy haze
I’ll be around
I’ll be loving you
Always
Always

Here I am
And I’ll take my time
Here I am
And I’ll wait in line
Always
Always...
Sep 30 2004 11:21PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
My post was for the guy above kami, who I agree with... Bush seems to be saying that his opponent is immediately unable to be president because he hasn't got firm convictions, and right or wrong, Bush sticks to his. That's like saying it's ok to drive a bus full of people into a brick wall just as long as the driver doesn't blink (as someone recently pointed out).

------------
In a haze
A stormy haze
I’ll be around
I’ll be loving you
Always
Always

Here I am
And I’ll take my time
Here I am
And I’ll wait in line
Always
Always...
Sep 30 2004 11:23PM
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SchweitzerSki
Posts: 4479 - Karma: 11
thos debates actually showed a lot. i am going to vote for kerry. I think bush needs to go


did that make any sense?
Oct 1 2004 12:25AM
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Barmski
Posts: 4342 - Karma: 811
This just in Kerry: 78% Bush:18% and Equal say 4%.
___________________

Keep, Keep on truckin' Yeah....Good Stuff

NO BRIAN, its I before E except after C, an when sounding like a in a neighbor in weigh and on weekends and holidays and all through out may and you'll always be wrong no MATTER WHAT YOU SAY!

You all take luck now! You take luck and care!
Oct 1 2004 12:54AM
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Ice-Is-Scary
Posts: 0 - Karma: 87
jarjar why do you keep saying my name I havnt posted anything in like 70 posts


We pay our debt sometimes.
Oct 1 2004 12:55AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
^That's only one poll, and it's pretty Kerry-Minded... most I've seen put kerry somewhere in the 50s, Bush somewhere in the 20s, and tie somewhere in the 20s percentage-wise.

------------
In a haze
A stormy haze
I’ll be around
I’ll be loving you
Always
Always

Here I am
And I’ll take my time
Here I am
And I’ll wait in line
Always
Always...
Oct 1 2004 12:55AM
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Ice-Is-Scary
Posts: 0 - Karma: 87
how many debates are left?


We pay our debt sometimes.
Oct 1 2004 12:56AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
2 more between the Canidates, next one is a week from tomorrow, I believe. It's supposedly some kind of town-hall format, though I kinda doubt that considering how restrictive this one was. There's also one between the Vice Presidential candidates on tuesday. I kind of expect that one to be a bit of a bitchfest; lots of potshots taken from both sides. But we'll see.

------------
In a haze
A stormy haze
I’ll be around
I’ll be loving you
Always
Always

Here I am
And I’ll take my time
Here I am
And I’ll wait in line
Always
Always...
Oct 1 2004 1:05AM
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SmoKinSkier
Posts: 5501 - Karma: 20
Yea the VP debate will be a mess! Ill tune in but doubt i will watch its entirety. Tonite was a good debate Bush wasnt on the attack that much but really doesnt have to be.
I think for him his main obcetive SHOUD BE to refute all of senator kerrys marks on him. He doesnt need to prove himself as much as Kerry. We know so little about the actaul plan KErry has for Iraq. He needed to be more clear on his plan cuz like it or not this election is mostly about iraq! Obvioulsy the President has a plan so to overcome this Kerry needs to say THIS IS MY PLAN didnt hear that tonite. But i look forward to the other debates they usually get better on each 1




Pete is currently sulking around Mt. Hood, shooting with Poor Boyz Productions and hitting on Kristi Leskinen. She hates guys, Pete lamented, so it’s not going good. Apparently Canada isn’t the only thing that’s tough for Pete to get into.
-kamikaze
Oct 1 2004 3:17AM
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Justo8484
Posts: 3905 - Karma: 204
what really stood out to me, when bush brought up the fact that kerry initially voted to allow military action but now does not support the war in iraq, trying to portray him as flip flopping or whatever, kerry responded that initially he voted for the war because he did feel saddam hussein was a threat, but he voted in favor of the war if it was conducted under certain circumstances and conditions that he had clearly laid out at the time. so to me it seems that its not so much he is against the war altogether, he said he supports the troops, its just that he is against the way it is being run. did i get that straight or do i have no clue whats going on?
Oct 1 2004 8:10AM
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Smithy
Posts: 1886 - Karma: 11
my point of view was that kerry was more lecturing and bush WAS in fact speaking to the people... just as the host claimed at the end of the debate. What grasped my attention the most was when John Edwards spoke about Kerry's plans that made them more clear because Kerry really had trouble responding and rebuttling to Bush's responses. they were, infact, like JD said... repetitive. I believe Kerry would have given us a more laid out plan of what EXACTLY he is going to do for the war if he had the ability without Bush's lame rebuttles. Although, Kerry claims to be able to fix this and this and this and blah Homeland security. Where is he going to get the money for that? hes going to tax the shit out of America. Think about it, hes the senator for Mass. Mass is the highest taxed state in the US... shit sucks around mass. I would never want to live here past college.






T'as pas d'amis. C'est con pour toi.
Oct 1 2004 8:43AM
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Smithy
Posts: 1886 - Karma: 11
basically, I like Kerry's idea of creating more alliances and strengthening homeland security. But HOW the fuck is he going to do it?






T'as pas d'amis. C'est con pour toi.
Oct 1 2004 8:45AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,141
^The Iraq war is very, very costly. If other nations are brought in, the cost is more evenly distributed. Same with other war fronts. In theory, anyways. He still has to bring the other nations in, and it still won't be enough money. Although he has said he wants to repeal Bush's tax breaks on incomes over $200,000 annually... Anyways, some people have declared it financially possible, but he'll have to do a lot more convincing on that one. Anyways, that's for another debate. I'm sure it will come up.

------------
In a haze
A stormy haze
I’ll be around
I’ll be loving you
Always
Always

Here I am
And I’ll take my time
Here I am
And I’ll wait in line
Always
Always...
Oct 1 2004 8:51AM
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SchweitzerSki
Posts: 4479 - Karma: 11
yeah he really doesn't say how, but he said he had a timeline with dates and everything last night. Why can't we see it though? I wish homestar runner was pres. The debates were really interesting because I never watched them before because I was never old enough to vote so I didn't really care.


did that make any sense?
Oct 1 2004 8:54AM
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SmoKinSkier
Posts: 5501 - Karma: 20
Yea Kerry feeds us alot but never explains it he will have a hard time winning over any intelligent undecided voters if he doesnt start givng us examples and ideas on how all this is goin to get paid for and run smoothly. Not saying he cant but mostly likely we are just goin to get taxed to hell and back! PErsonally id rather have a large defficit.




Pete is currently sulking around Mt. Hood, shooting with Poor Boyz Productions and hitting on Kristi Leskinen. She hates guys, Pete lamented, so it’s not going good. Apparently Canada isn’t the only thing that’s tough for Pete to get into.
-kamikaze
Oct 1 2004 10:18AM
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Smithy
Posts: 1886 - Karma: 11
JD yeah i knew that was the answer but i dont know how Kerry is going to make wine out of water.






T'as pas d'amis. C'est con pour toi.
Oct 1 2004 10:20AM
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NBCskier
Posts: 3877 - Karma: -289
kerry is to complicating that is why he is gonna lose
Oct 1 2004 10:31AM
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bitchassphatz
Posts: 6171 - Karma: 107
but there are so many dumb ass voters, kerry might actually win.

i know plenty of people who jsut don't like bush and that's their reasoning for voting a different president. hopefulylt he people who are educated will vote and the dumb ass won't. then we'll have bush as our president again!

YAY BUSH! BOO KERRY! YAY NADER!



**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

d-loc's wit & wisdom at its best.
Oct 1 2004 1:19PM
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Itsbackfliptime
Posts: 18901 - Karma: 75
I only watched about 45 minutes of the debate. It definitely seemed like kerry was repeating himself. I also just don't like listening to him talk. It's really boring. Bush at least has a little personality.

Mac 'n' Steeze Movie
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Oct 1 2004 1:56PM
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B-Wald
Posts: 8113 - Karma: 96
bush repeated himself just as much as kerry did.

and bitchassphatz. so everyone who has the opposite view on this is a dumbass?

a lot of people will vote for the 'guy other than bush' because they think that bush is a bad president. who would you rather vote for? someone who you know you dont want as a president? or someone that you think might be a better president? i think i'd take my chances on this one. kerry has shown progress towards a lot of things that i feel would make a better president. that's why (if i was a month older) i'd be voting for kerry, not bush.
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- Andrew Berwald
Oct 1 2004 2:23PM
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CTD
Posts: 6300 - Karma: 348
but you forgot Poland! how could you forget poland!?! -Bush

last time i checked, poland didnt have much of a military, and the french are pussies. bush got OWNED last night. i dont care who you support, you have to admit that kerry blew him out of the water. i dont particularly like either, but i will be voting dem. cause nader isnt on the ballot here. plus nader votes hurt kerry, not bush.

I.L.I.A.G.A CREW!


I drink pepto bismal like its water.. -PJO
Oct 1 2004 2:29PM
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punk_rider
Posts: 2327 - Karma: 10
WHO CARES? GEORGE IS GONNA WIN THAT'S ALL!!
democrats do not thik that Kerry was good or that he was better than Bush. it's just that they thought he would be totally ridiculous, and was just not that bad. greaaat victory for democrats!!
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! GEORGE IS GONNA WIN!!!



*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
Oct 1 2004 2:40PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
No lets all be honest. Of all the people here voting for kerry, who is actually really just voting against Bush? I really would like to know.

As far as the debate went, I dont think that either side made a real convincing blow to thier opponent. Its all about your mindset going into hearing it. If you like bush, you thought that he killed kerry by pointing out that he is a flip flopper. If you like Kerry, you thought that he killed bush on being wrong on everything. I thought that it went right down the middle. Nothing really new came out at all. I say screw all of the formatted shit and just let the two brawl.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Oct 1 2004 3:22PM
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Smithy
Posts: 1886 - Karma: 11
AMEN! let those sons of bitches go at it! that would be hilarious... i think theres a website somewhere that actually allows you to witness a virtual form of the candidates battling eachother.






T'as pas d'amis. C'est con pour toi.
Oct 1 2004 3:32PM
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coolcat410
Posts: 882 - Karma: 11
I was thinking about what was said.
Kerry wants to Train Troops in Iraq.
Kerry wants to spend more money to pay for better home land security.
Kerry leads us to believe he would like to take action in areas such as Korea instead of just Iraq (more troops).
Kerry wants some people on the line between the two warring countries that 'are running back and forth blowing eachother up.'

Ok, that sounds all great. But would Kerry get all this money?
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Team Fresh
Oct 1 2004 3:46PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
from my paycheck
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Oct 1 2004 3:47PM
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asac
Posts: 12485 - Karma: 17
if you think bush won/dominated that debate, you are an idiot.





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Good Fun With A Hand Gun.

NO MORE BU** SH**
Oct 1 2004 3:48PM
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asac
Posts: 12485 - Karma: 17
'but there are so many dumb ass voters, kerry might actually win.' - bitchassphatz, you're kidding right.





---------------------
Good Fun With A Hand Gun.

NO MORE BU** SH**
Oct 1 2004 3:49PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
If you think kerry won/dominated the debate your an idiot too.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Oct 1 2004 3:58PM
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bitchassphatz
Posts: 6171 - Karma: 107
if you think, you are an idiot.



**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

d-loc's wit & wisdom at its best.
Oct 1 2004 4:09PM
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midwest_rep2
Posts: 1096 - Karma: 10
Here's my take: Congrats to Kerry for putting up with Bush's 'changing positions' phrase. I bet Bush said that over 20 times and Kerry never lost his cool or lashed out in retaliation over that topic. Instead he coolily and calmly stated his position on Iraq. It's just unfortunate that most voters don't know the whole '87 billion' situation and don't know there is a reason why Kerry voted against it the second time, as did many senators. I think it comes down to ability in the end, not conviction, morals, or heart. Bush said the same things over and over, very simple phrases aimed more at the emotional, less that intellectual American. He keeps repeating words like 'spreading liberty' 'freedom' 'hard work in Iraq' etc. but these phrases are not being backed up by concrete facts. He is playing off people's emotions and that is why some of you on here have posted that you supported Bush during the debate, because it felt like he was talking to you instead of lecturing. But in talking to you, he also did not say anything. He said catch phrases, how many times did he attack kerry over flip flopping even when that wasn't the topic? Bush's strong suit, and his advisors said this before the debate, is not the issues, but it is playing to the hearts of americans and swelling them with pride because they are at war. I think Kerry will hopefully catch on as people listen to his ideas and realize he is saying things of substance. People will realize 'strong moral values and a good heart' is not the way to lead a country, intelligence and problem solving skills are the way to lead a country. Bravo to Kerry for not getting into a character debate with Bush, despite being lured in at almost every question. But props to Bush for playing off the hearts of Americans, he has a way with simple words and short phrases that make you think he is a war hero.
`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`


'haha he told his parents ahbout his ginormous cock.... what a fag' - linemaverick540

'I wonder why haters tend to be idiots?' J.D._May
Oct 1 2004 4:17PM
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bitchassphatz
Posts: 6171 - Karma: 107
hey ^ you, shut up.

VOTE ROSS PEROT!



how could you say no to those ears?



**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

d-loc's wit & wisdom at its best.
Oct 1 2004 4:21PM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 125
theres no need to get pissed off and accuse anyone who votes for kerry an idiot.
moving on...
first of all, i think the whole 'flip flopper' shit is just retarded, and i cant believe people actually take that as a good argument against kerry.
and bush really did not talk well last night, he stuttered, had many mental blocks, and just repeated his catch phrases over and over. i in all honesty, think kerry really did kill bush last night.
________________________
-this post dedicated to matt-
'see, this is what's wrong with newschoolers these days, i try to start a shittalking war, and nobody bites the bait'-noteefa
Oct 1 2004 4:22PM
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midwest_rep2
Posts: 1096 - Karma: 10
^ Hey YOU, vote Eugene Debs for Socialist!
`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`-=`


'haha he told his parents ahbout his ginormous cock.... what a fag' - linemaverick540

'I wonder why haters tend to be idiots?' J.D._May
Oct 1 2004 4:22PM
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bitchassphatz
Posts: 6171 - Karma: 107




**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

d-loc's wit & wisdom at its best.
Oct 1 2004 4:27PM
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punk_rider
Posts: 2327 - Karma: 10
^Man!! i always was sure of this! now that's the proof!!!!



*******************

PUNK'S NOT DEAD!
RAILS SUCK!
POWDER SKIING RULES!
Oct 1 2004 4:31PM
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twix_182
Posts: 9248 - Karma: 27
the only reason kerry can say all those good things is because he is not president and has not done any of these thing he 'promises' to do. if he gets into office, he may do sum of those things, but at the cost of higher taxes for us. he talks about bringing more money into the war for the soldiers, yet he says hes gonna use the money to help out on repairing things in the U.S. And wheres that money gonna come from?


Take me to your special place
Close your eyes, show me your face.....I'm gonna piss on it
Oct 1 2004 5:51PM
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bitchassphatz
Posts: 6171 - Karma: 107
your paycheck DUH!

not mine though, cuz i'm voting for him.



**Proud member of the d-loc fanclub**

d-loc's wit & wisdom at its best.
Oct 1 2004 6:05PM
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Nickskier
Posts: 1761 - Karma: 13
i hate when people say 'your just voting against bush'. yeah, you have everyone all figured out don't you. if you honestly think that george W is perfect and everything about him is great, you probably can't think and have no real opinions. democrats may not think kerry is the ideal canidate, but that's because they have viewpoints that aren't simply clones of their canidates.
Oct 1 2004 6:40PM
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twix_182
Posts: 9248 - Karma: 27
^^haha yes axactly. and for u(guy right above me) kerry also isnt perfect, so same goes for u


Take me to your special place
Close your eyes, show me your face.....I'm gonna piss on it
Oct 1 2004 6:43PM
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ESB
Posts: 9273 - Karma: 10,647
I personally have no problem whatsoever with higher taxes, but that's beside the issue.

I see a lot of harping on Kerry for not having a 'definite plan' on Iraq. Can someone fill me in on what Bush's long-term plan for Iraq is?

Wayne: 'I don't own a gun, let alone many guns that would necessitate the use of a rack. What am I going to do... with a gun rack?'
Oct 1 2004 6:49PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
Nickskier- What the hell? I never said that Bush was a perfect president. Fuck you. And how the hell do you say that I have no real opinions and cant think? Stop trying to suck your own dick and think about what you are saying. I think that it is quite apparent that Bush isnt a perfect president, but I think that the whole mentality of voting for the other candidate just because you hate the other one is wrong. What is to say that Kerry would have done any better in Bush's situations that he has had to deal with.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Oct 1 2004 7:12PM
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NBCskier
Posts: 3877 - Karma: -289
fuck kerry. first off, you wanna talk about iraq? how hes so much different than bush? you know what!? HE IS! because he wants to send MORE troops into iraq. oh, he also stated that he wanted to maintain a higher level of security by developing a stronger SECURITY progam at home, not send troops... hmmm. sounds conflicting. hey fucker, IT IS. i call bullshit on this guy right here and now. kerry tries to cover too many bases and ends up looking like a wavering puss of a liberal that cant even stick to his own reformative ideals. id rather go with someone who has the nuts to maintain a given position in the face of opposition. go bush, fuckers.
Oct 1 2004 7:49PM
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GVAR510
Posts: 1037 - Karma: 10
god, you kerry fans are ridiculous! all you do is ask questions here. u wanna know why we say, 'ur just voting for kerry bcz you dont like bush?' Its bcz you people cant tell WHY you like kerry. all u say is bush is bad, bush did this, bush did that. well if bush did that, then what is KERRY gonna do? as others have already stated responding to your petty inquires, he is going to send more troops, raise taxes, and try to get other countries involved, which just isnt gonna happen. why dont you guys focus on what the next possible president is going to do for you, and not just every flaw bush has, or anything he does wrong?




Red Sox rule
Oct 1 2004 8:42PM
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asac
Posts: 12485 - Karma: 17
'If you think kerry won/dominated the debate your an idiot too.' - i'm sure thats why bush's administration felt as though they should say he did not do well because he was stressed by the damage caused by huricanes in florida. if you think bush won, you went into the debate refusing to even pay attention to kerry. did you cover you ears and yell everytime he talked or are you just an idiot?





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Good Fun With A Hand Gun.

NO MORE BU** SH**
Oct 1 2004 8:55PM
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asac
Posts: 12485 - Karma: 17
...for utahpowerski..





---------------------
Good Fun With A Hand Gun.

NO MORE BU** SH**
Oct 1 2004 8:56PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
What the hell did you think I said asac? I didnt once say that I thought Bush won this debate. I dont think that either candidate really made a great case for themselves. I wasnt saying that Kerry did or didnt do anything. I just think that there are people from both sides saying 'yeah, Kerry kicked Bush's ass' or 'Kerry ripped Bush a new one' when it just wasnt true. That kind of comment is idiotic. I know that you are accusing me of blind belief in rhetoric and spin of the Bush campaign, but its the exact opposite. I looked at this debate with a very neutral eye and took in consideration of what each candidate said. Maybe you yourself have gotten caught up in a little bit of the spin factor, eh?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Oct 1 2004 11:19PM
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coolcat410
Posts: 882 - Karma: 11
I dont know who won the debate. I'd say Kerry looked more in tact, he seemed to me to present himself better and from the image he was giving off he seemed to be the better debater. But Kerry never said anything that i really liked. Bush stuttered, stammered, seemed too nervous. But then i thought, heck who wouldnt be. He's up infront of millions of views trying to make sure he words everything perfect to make himself look more intelligent.

Notice all the big words he put into play. Then i think damn...i get nervous talking in front of 24 of my class mates with an english paper. I would be stuttering my face off too. I've decided i no longer am all for Bush, the debate kind of changed my views. I dont love the guy anymore. But i believe, if i were able to vote, that i would still vote for bush. I see empty promises with Kerry.

And the part that would mostly get Bush my vote would be because Bush would do a better job getting what is needed to be done in these forien countries. It seems to me Kerry wants to send troops all over, Korea, Iraq, Afganistan, and Isreal borders. That's a multi front war. Then i think well terroism is all over the world it should be a multi front war. But then i realized that Bush is right in what he is doing, get one of the major terrorist countries (Iraq) out of the way.

With Iraq out of the way terrorists will know we mean bussiness. That we will respond to threats made against us or our allies. That we will take immediate action against anyone behind these threats. That scares the shit out of terrorism. I no longer am all for bush im for ending terrorism because that has plagued earth for too long, and 9/11 was one of the worst moments in American history. And i believe that Bush can successfully do this in a faster and more safer (for our troops believe it or not, and for our home country) fashion. If anyone disagrees with me, show me your points. I would like JD to respond to this cause he can prove me wrong. And i wanna hear it.
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Team Fresh
Oct 1 2004 11:32PM
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B-Wald
Posts: 8113 - Karma: 96
to all of you that keep playing the 'you're just voting for kerry because you don't like bush' card, stop and think about what you're saying. logically.

all right. first, we don't like bush. so obviously we're not gonna vote for him.

secondly, kerry is the only guy running against bush, and has shown that he has a good chance of being a better president (in my mind) than bush. can you seriously not see the connection here?

if i think bush sucks, i'm gonna support the other guy that has a chance of winning. not bush. it isn't that hard of a concept to grasp.

but really, anything i say doesn't matter because i won't be able to vote anyways.
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- Andrew Berwald
Oct 1 2004 11:37PM
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