The difference between republicans and democrats

the minority party/non-presidential party will ALWAYS be absurdly overly critical of the other team.

Holy shit. Stop blaming presidents for everything. They can't just shit out an idea and make it happen, that is not the point of this system of government. The idea's must go through other people too you know. So it is not COMPLETELY Bush's fault that Iraq happened and it is not COMPLETELY Obama's fault that there is no change. You're blaming the face of the government, when you should be blaming the brain.

yay for using massive generalizations and a wholehearted lack of facts, coupled with some nice personal anecdotes to counter an argument.


man, im so glad i dont participate in these threads any more, its so much more fun to sit back and laugh.

give up both parties, they're no good. anybody trying to bring back the whig party?

Lol. Another ignorant person in our country, surprising? no. Sad? yes.








Both sides suck balls. People said all kinds of shit about bush, all kinds of shit about clinton. People seem to be too stupid to see things from both "sides"

Jesus. Why is everyone so fucking stupid these days?

why don't you call me out on the gross generalizations that your seeing and give me a chance to defend them even further with more evidence instead of taking a jab at me and then "running away" into the dark abyss of internet anonymity.  Why don't you bring something to the table instead of just criticizing?

Easy answer:

The problem with your post is emotion > rationale. This is one of the things fox/msnbc is so good at catering to. They highlight political talking points in order to justify correctness and suppress people's rationale. For example, what you said about the welfare slugs that sit on unemployment and have 6 kids. That directly pertains to an emotionally charged argument. If you were rational about it you would say hey I wonder how much of this money is coming from my hard working family's money. Then thinking about it would arrive you to the conclusion that it is so minimal it is barely considerable.

finally a post i can agree with.

Perfectly well said. Look above your post.

made me lol real hard +k

Fair enough, I'll respond.

First of all, we do not have socialized healthcare. Even with the healthcare bill, we are nowhere near a Canadian style system. We don't have a single payer system, we don't even have a public option. We have a set of new regulations and rules, one that would be more easily compared to how the FAA regulates airlines, or FDA keeps your food safe. It isn't a government takeover, that just sounds really good as a sound byte on your designated partisan news source. The government does not provide healtcare, corporations still do. Do you really think they would have backed the bill as they did if it was a "government takeover"? Of course not, there's a reason why they were giving massive amounts of money to people like Senator Baucus. What the bill does do is make it slightly more difficult for insurance companies to drop coverage, refuse coverage, or hike rates astronomically for no apparent reason. In fact, CBO projections estimate that the bills will reduce the deficit by about 140 billion over the next decade. http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/health.cfm

The Tea Party does not believe in limited government, and they certainly aren't a separate division from the rest of the Republican party. If they were, you would have seen them rallying just as ferociously when Bush past HIS stimulus. Only they were nowhere to be seen. They are simply a new way to display displeasure with the Democratic party. While they are certainly not an entirely racist organization, you would have to be blind not to see that there is certainly a race element involved.

Not sure where you were going with that immigration quip, you are going to have to elaborate if you want a response to that.

The final paragraph. Ah the wonderful word socialism. Please look up a definition of the word. In fact, look up several. While it sounds fantastic, it quite simply isn't true. The US is considerably closer to the laissez-faire side of things than even a nation such as Canada, which is certainly not a socialist country, not even close.

I have already addressed your misnomer of a "government takeover" of healthcare. Sounds good, simply isn't true.

The government taxes heavily? In fact, many tax rates now are LOWER than they were under the most beloved of conservatives, Ronald Reagan. Not to mention that a large portion of the ever hated stimulus was EXACTLY what conservatives clamor for, tax cuts. State taxes are a seperate issue, and certainly can't be blamed on Obama. I can't really comment on New York taxes, I don't know enough about them.

Cool, the income tax has only been around for about 100 years. The amount of infrastructure the government provides has also grown, and needs to be paid for. Roads, public education, medicare, social security, they all need to be paid for. And have fun getting elected if you want to mess with peoples medicare or social security. It needs reform, but its here to stay.

FDR did get us out of the Great Depression. Aside from a few partisan hacks who call themselves economists at USC(? I think it was, but i recall the study), the VAST majority of economists and historians agree that the economy had stabilized before we entered the war. While WWII certainly accelerated the economies growth, it had stabilized by 1939, 2 years before we entered the war.

Im not even going to address your anecdotal evidence about your "friend". We all conveniently seem to know someone whose experienced something that supports our cause.

If I missed something, please let me know.

All good posts by Ben, MitchPee, and um sorry I can't remember your username but someone else replied to me and I've read your posts and I have things to say about each of them but I can only do one at a time.  My long post took me awhile It may not even be tonight, as much as I really want to  I have school stuff that is way more time sensitive than this.  It's definitely on my to do list.  I'll try to organize my thoughts better in my reply.

Wow, you don't even know where to start?

upon reading up on this thread i have found that it still bites the big one.

is it cool if i just imagine you're che guevera when you post?

They both make shit decisoins and sometimes good decisions. the problem is they always forget what made the country great which is why we will litereally get fucked by china. We pretty much belong to them since almost all our debt is owed to them.

I read you post fast because I just finished writing up replies to other people's posts.  I'll get to yours eventually but I will say I have never spent months at a time or anything in Canada, but I have traveled there many times, probably a couple dozen times at least from Montreal to Ottawa to Quebec City and others.  I have a personal connection to a nurse that works in the Canadian health care system and she agrees that it is not efficient and just plain not good.  Also my previous university was 15 minutes from Canada and as a requirement I had to take classes on Canada, technically I did have a few other options but I love the country of Canada and thought it would interesting.  My term paper was between 10-15 pages long and it was centered all around health care.  Unfortunately I wrote it about 4 years ago and I don't have it anymore but if that's not enough to have an at least somewhat educated opinion I don't know what else I can do besides move to Canada.  I'm considering McGill actually for grad school so who knows it could happen.  Sorry I didn't get around to the rest of your post but I will do my best to get to it soon.





@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; }

Casual, you say that “I am so thoroughly entrenched in my beliefs that to suggest anything else would be a waste of time.”  It may seem to you that way from my 20 minute rant session, but I don’t think that’s a fair assessment of my character based on so few posts.  In fact, one of my better qualities (some people might say “that doesn’t say much ha. But that’s for them to decide) is being able to see both sides of arguments.  More often than not I can be very indecisive but I find politics to be one of those thing where you have to more emphatically define your lines.

“give me a chance to defend them”  You say that sells me out right there because only thoughtful people consider other idea’s  from a neutral place… I don’t know what you think I really meant by that, but I just wanted Ben to get a little more involved instead of just saying I used gross generalizations.  He posted and I’m glad he did because I respect that, even if we may be bound to disagree.

As for your wiki searches being passed off as being well-informed, I’m not going to say that I don’t ever search the internet for some facts and figures.  In fact I do it often if I need to, unlike you perhaps, I cannot retain and off the top of my head access things like the exact percent of General Motors that the US and Canadian governments own or that the health care bill is over 2,600 pages long.  And as for your “plagiarize the ideas of infinitely bright people than myself” comment, that right there is a mirror image of education?  You go to school, you read books written by smarter people than myself, and then regurgitate them back to professors that assess how well I’ve learned what those smart people thought, and thus you get graded on that.   Do you see my point?  Everyone here is regurgitating either directly/indirectly or intentionally/unintentionally words already spoken by other people.

 I believe in lots of things that have been around long before me, and there will always be people much smarter and wiser than me.  This is fact that is true for almost every human being. I don’t understand your aim there because it’s so overly obvious that people get their information from people that they believe are smarter them.  Where do you get your information, because they are most likely smarter than you.  My post was overly long but that’s because by nature I just want to type and type and type without organizing my thought in any particular way.

Other than that you didn’t do much other than pick apart the style my post was written in.

Now MitchPee, there is nothing wrong with emotion because without it I don’t think anything would ever happen.  Call me overly patriotic if you want but it was emotion that made our country independent and it was American’s emotions that decisively took back the House last night.

My example of the welfare is isn’t so out of touch, especially in New York.  New York is the only state I believe that people can stay in the welfare system for life.  As long as they stay within the requirements, honestly I don’t know exactly what those are, but they can stay in basically forever, on everyone else’s tax dollar.  There’s absolutely no incentive for a large group of people in New York to provide anything for themselves.  Now in 20 years when people that have been used to getting child welfare for example, those parents are going to look to the state for help.  It may sound farfetched but it’s a harsh reality. New York along with California that has way more people on welfare than NY, are already cash-strapped states. I recently moved to western New York and the welfare rates over here are just as bad.  I had the opportunity two weeks ago to speak with a Vietnam Vet. that ran a soup kitchen here for over twenty years.  He finally had to be done with it because he was sick and tired of seeing multiple generations of the same families rely on their operation for food.  A good functioning economy has some level of unemployment and that is an economic fact.  Anyone that is or has gone to school for business or economics I believe would agree.  Philanthropy and charity are good things, but when you give so many people money to live off, they grow accustomed to it and have no need to try to better themselves.  As opposed to saying, we’ll give you money to live for 6 months only, after that you have to provide for yourself.  This is what some state welfare policies do.  Flat screen tv’s are pretty cheap, I’m not saying people on welfare can go buy a tv with food stamps, but you can set yourself up pretty nicely with not that much money.

The amount of money that comes from my family or myself personally may be miniscule, but it’s no doubt a fundamental flaw.  I found a USA today report from last year that claims 50 million Americans receive welfare between state funded welfare programs (4 mill.), federal food stamps (37 mill.), and unemployment (9 mill.).  Even though unemployment is a slightly different category that’s still 20% of the entire country.  I may be on the stubborn side but you can’t tell me that 1/6 of the country is meant to be getting sustenance from of the hard work of others.  These numbers vary slightly from source to source, but the NY Times published an article saying that 1 in 50 live off absolutely nothing but food stamps.  2% may not sound like much but for a country with over 300 million people that’s more than 6 million people.  I’m copy/pasting this last bit because I’m really sick of typing and I need to study for a test on the ethics of a global economy, much more fun..not.

I’m sure I missed points I wanted to add but I can only do so much and honest to god my fingers hurt a bit.

I’ll be back in a day or two to comment on the other guys.

uhhhhh. There are many reasons. From how he shoved healthcare down our throats(although that goes out more to congress with that shit last christmas), everything I said before about the stimulus package, how 8% of his cabinet had jobs in the private sector previously(as opposed to a average of around 30-40%, and Im being generous), how he deals with foreign leaders, his economic policies, the promise for higher taxes, how he cares so much about himself, about his legacy and all that, and I can go on and on into more personal things that dont have a basis in policy, but those are retarded. Its not emotionally charged, but driven by core ideas and policies that are so far away from my own.
Believe me, my dislike has a foundation unlike my hated for Ohio state, UGA, michigan state, notre dame, purdue, wisconsin...

My point about people hating Palin is I dont see a point to it. If she ran in 2012, I would see a point. There is a strong point to dislike obama, bush, and any elected official. they are affecting people lives. Palin is just sitting there, not really affecting policy or anything. Maybe I've just been around a ton of people that just go on tirades when you mention her name, but the hate for palin seems extravagant.

I read the first block of text, where you, uhh....cited your Canadian street cred. No comment, don't care, anecdotal and irrelevant for the most part.

There are many reasons? There are many reasons Bush could be categorized as a horrible president. Obama shoved healthcare down our throats but we don't have nationalized healthcare? Bush shoved an Iraq war and the initial bailout down our throats. Everything you say about how his ideology and core ideas are different are exactly an excuse to have a preconceived notion. Just please take a step back and read. Nobody in here is providing a logical basis for hating Bush or Obama just merely reciting low grade catch phrases.

Sorry but everything in here is a logical fallacy. Telling me it's okay to vote based on emotions and that is why the Republicans won the house is a really bad argument.

Please find me the gallup poll that shows that 30% of republicans call obama a terrorist muslim who is foreign born. please.


No that is not the only gauge. One of many, but first. It is not free. You pay for it in taxes. And youre ok with the majority of the country not liking something that congress and obama shoved down our throats? Btw, the polls on that are 51% against it, more like 70%. Other reasons are it costs far beyond what they though. They ignored CBO estimates and it will cost far more than that, and we are very far into debt, more than $13 trillion dollars. The spending by the left is absolutely reckless.

Why do I give people credit? Dude, our country is about fucking people. I know its not a full on democracy and we elect people to vote on things for us, but thoughts like that are central to liberal thinking that they know whats best and better for everyone and if everyone in the country has a problem, its because they are stupid and we know better.

How would healthcare work better if people got on board? They dont have a fucking choice. And the answer if they did have a choice, is still no.


Find me the republican adds that are racist and calling obama a terrorist muslim. Please.

Republicans and conservatives have a huge problem with spending, social issues of the left and many other things. Most of the people of this country agree and are dissatisfied, thats why the election went the way it did. If you're talking presidents and candidates here, I dont know what youre talking about...things are lost in these quotations on here.

The republicans are great, but you're talking about biased voting records? Dude, everyone is biased. And who the fuck are closet republicans? You can be a conservative, but not a republican. Im not a republican.

The palin thing...I mean that was mistake from minute one. By taking on someone who's only experience is a governorship took away one of the best arguments we had against obama: his experience. A lot of it is over the top, but i understand it and I knew it was coming. There strategy to totally destroy her worked. She could have been presidential material in 4-8 years.



Dude, I live in fucking Georgia. We were the 5th state to secede and join the Confederate States of America. I've been to 2 tea parties to see what was up. there were no crazy people. Only funny signs. black people were there (i know OMG) and prominent black speakers came to talk about the problems in government. I highly doubt you've only been to one. Instead you just accept not only the party line thought of democrats on tea parties but the media's portrayal of them where they take a few instances and make it look like its happening everywhere.

I watched FOX last night, and they referred to Palin as a King Maker over and over again.

What?

Im not getting this.

Ok I understand why people dont like Bush cause of Iraq and what not. That's fine. I dont think the same way as the left on Bush(I dont hate him, but I do not like him), but I think they are justified in most of their reasons. btw, Bush didnt shove the bailout. that was a democratic congress(yes, weve had them for a while), and bush was stupid to sign it and abandoned traditional conservative ideology to try to appease people and make it look better politically.

Alright, maybe I should make it clear that I dont really hate obama. I dont like him at all and think hes a bad president. i dont understand why if he institutes policies that I and many other people think are not helpful or are hurting the county, why I cant dislike him for bringing about those policies. Who the fuck isnt going to have preconceived notions about political issues. There is no way to have a full on open mind about everything. Its a rational argument to not like someone because the policy they have enacted is not only against the ideals you have, but also proven to not work and are a waste of money.


I understand the obama narcissist thing is not a great argument. I wasnt saying that it was. That was something to tack on to the end and was a transition to my last sentence. I think I forgot a sentence about how I didnt like personal things, but those arguments were just as unjustified as my hate for certain college football programs...


as for palin
There is a difference to delivering speeches and signing legislature.

my point is that she is not doing things with legislature. She isnt voting things into law.

Sure she can be like rush limbaugh and other people and try to persuade people to think differently. But my point is she does not have the effect on people than, say, your congressman. Which mine is a fucking idiot that though guam was gonna sink into the ocean. Fucking district 4 voters with their heads up their asses.

As for your comment on the economy.

You understand it was a bad argument yet you tacked it on? That is emotional appeasement. It is proving you are tacking stuff on just because you have no reason or justification and hold ontro grudges of your preconceived ideas.

.

I am down for health care reform, I believe that all people have a right to healthcare in some shape or form. But your friend who needed to wait 5 months for knee surgery... what if he had a brain tumor and he needed to that wait long. In addition, what if a doctor suspected he had a tumor or something and he needed a MRI, add another 3 months to that, before they can even schedule a surgery. 8 months could be the difference between life or death.

that was for Gnartron that posted solely about the Canadian Health Care system, he assumed that I knew absolutely nothing about it and may have never spent any time in Canada.  I was just trying to show him that I may not have my own first hand experience inside the canadian health care system, I'm not completely clueless to it, no matter what you or anyone maybe post or say I'm not just some kid posting my a condo in Florida having no ties to Canada at all.

Casual, I've never seen Terminator so I don't quite get the reference,  and I assume that you don't need a lecture on the fundamentals of education.  Your reply to my post was also overly literal so you're right, I don't see you point.  Whether you get your news/facts from Fox News or the NY Times, it's reasonable to assume that they are "brighter" individuals than I.  Not that I care what political or social lines you've drawn for yourself, they come brighter people than you and your just "regurgitating" it back at people.  I know my first posts weren't nearly as clear as I would've liked but I think you sound a bit ignorant yourself there when you call me out on the same thing.

and MitchPee, emotion is not always a temporary solution just as it is not always a positive thing.  It seems pretty obvious that many Americans do not "feel" the current Administration is doing what it's supposed to, so it voted for some "new" change.  Not that it's going to happen overnight, it's a small step in a much bigger challenge of getting Obama out of the White House because he's already said since the elections he's not going to give up on socialized health care.  And that has been shown in polls over and over again that it's not what the people really want. 

I see what you're trying to saying emotion getting us caught up in Iraq, and I agree with you there.  Just like you can get a puppy for your girlfriend, some pedophile can try to lure a child to his van.  It comes down to how they're used, and yeah we basically had the wool over our eyes when we invaded Iraq, because Bush played on our emotions.  I hope your not confusing my definition of emotion as some form of impulsive action type of emotion.

For whoever said there we are providing health care to the 300,000 American troops in the Middle East?  Prove it, because I think you've exaggerated that claim by like 300%.

Back to MitchPee, to ATLskier I think you said something to effect of "Obama shoved obamacare down our throats and we don't have socialized health care?"  Well the type of overhaul theyre asking for?  There's been enough opposition so far to delay it, as you i'm sure well know.  Signing bills into law takes time.  If the house remained Democrat it would make it that much easier to pass.  Republicans will not vote to pass that bill, but as long as Obama is in office people are going to talk about it.  It was the cornerstone for his entire campaign, he's not going to give up on it now.  If he accepts defeat in regards to health care, people would lose complete faith in him if he abandons the platform that he so vigorously ran on.   I hope there are good candidates in 2 years because I see Obama as a one term president. 

There's already Medicare and Medicaid which in 2008 got 330 and 204 billion dollars respectively out of the federal budget.  Add the 610 billion in social security for that year, half of the federal budget goes to social security and health care.  Pretty substantial numbers, I know you weren't advocating Obamacare in your post but that was said to a little over 700 billion dollars for Obamacare and that's probably a low estimate. 

http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/health.cfm

Ben. I haven't heard of those bills but that's good, it seems they are trying to reform the system to cut costs.  But it takes a lot more I believe, we run a deficit over 500 billion a year for the last few years.

That IS the healthcare reform bill. the one that passed this past March.

oh sorry, I've always just called it Obamacare because it's easier that way.  Either way I don't see it going into effect any time soon.

I don't see how Republicans could overturn it. Even if they could pass it in the House and Senate, it'd get vetoed and they will never get 2/3rds majority.

You know there is somewhat of a priority system that is prevalent in our heath care..

I'm pretty sure if you have a brain tumour, your waiting time is lowered to no more than a month, because let's face it, you may not be long for this world.

Also, my grandmother recently underwent a full hip replacement.
She only had to wait a day.

They probably won't get rid of it but they will still try to change parts of it.

Just hope they remove the part about student loans... which naturally they won't.

look what i missed with my internetz being broken all day.

Imma sit this one out guys :)

Well I don't live in Canada, and I really don't know shit about your health care system. But i was basing this off some documentary i saw where some guy from Canada had a brain tumor, ended up going to the states to get the surgery instead of waiting.

well then..

I'm not totally aware of how it all works myself, but I thought that would be a rare scenario.

My God, you dont fucking read. I said in my fucking post it was a bad idea. Fuck. I know its fucking appeasement. God, the other ideas are fucking good enough.



Obamacare is much different than the healthcare systems in other countries. We have almost 300 million people. All those countries have FAR less than ours.

Ok, so you're fine to spend hundreds billions of dollars when we owe 13 trillion? I could bring up the statistics about death rates from cancer, treatment numbers, number of MRI's per 10,000 people, and many other facts that show our healthcare works now, but that wont do anything from you.

Want to know something that didnt work(that I already stated)? The fucking stimulus package. Look at our economy. I dont feel like repeating myself again.


Besides, you can have arguments and ideas on politcal ideas, because a government takeover of healthcare and car companies is not what this country was founded on and it shouldnt be be changed.

I dont fucking care if I get your little argument. When I have a president that doesn't want to change the constitution(and use it to wipe his ass), I will not be so against him or her.

Yeah they've already said that they're going to try to pick away at parts of it, until they can get someone in office that will repeal the entire thing. 

To be clear, could you be more specific about what you mean by the student loan part.  All I know is that there was a takeover of student loans but it helps me right now tremendously.  It's a good time to go to college with such cheap interest rates on loans.  Since the takeover I know SallieMae had to layoff about 3,000 of it's employees, and the loan I got through them 4 years ago was at 6% interest.  3 months ago when I applied for another loan the best they could give me was 11.5%.

I just don't like how the gov't is in charge of the student loan process. I know banks suck but I don't trust the gov't... with anything that involves MY money or my well-being.

Why don't we just stop bickering? It doesn't get us anywhere.

point is i am 15 and bush fucked us hard because he made us believe he was doing good for the country and he lied than he passes his shit to obama and obama can't live up to the expatiations because he doesnt lie. but i really dont think he has done much i mean he has like health care but he isnt really living up to what he said so..

I never, ever, thought I would see a post this respectful and intelligent in a political thread on NS. Thank you so much.