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DSLR vs regular HD cams

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MatRich
Posts: 4789 - Karma: 1,812

ok so I am realy considering buying a canon 7D DSLR as my next camera. I have been against the thought of this for a long time but now I have changed. there are drawbacks to DSLR's but I think that they arnt that bad so I want to know why people still are against them. I want to know the reasons for not buying one.

Pro:

Transportable

Easy photo/ video switch

Bigger chip: short depth of field, low light performance

Interchangale lenses: win

cheaper: yes it is cheaper... I will explain

The dissadvantages which I am about to mention have a counter argument which I think make it worth making the switch... so why not?

Light, camera shake: it is very easy to build a shoulder mount or stedycam system which will make it much more stable than a regular un equiped dv cam.... and for next to nothing.

Bad sound: the 7D has a mic input which means I can get myself a splitter and mixer to have a mic.

Expensive..... sorry its not. To get the short depth of field wanted from a dv cam, you need to buy a 35mm adaptor.... this costs about 1000$ plus the lens, plus the rods. DSLR's come equiped with the look you will pay thousands to acheive. Its expensive if you consider all of the extra accessories you need to get to make it function like a dv cam but to make a dv cam function like in cinema or a DSLR, you are also going to spend a lot of money and no one seems to realise this. I can make rigs that will stabalise my DSLR but I cant make rigs that will get me the film look on my DV cam.

Follow focus: Im sorry but the way I focus my Panasonic DVC 30 is exactly the same as how I will focus my DSLR. no serious filmmaker uses auto focus very often so why complain. Once again followfocus rigs are easy to build for free.

Here are now the only cons I have found which are not counterable by homemade rigs or quick fixes. these, to me are the only factors which bring me away from the cameras.

Jello effect: this is caused by the way the images are digitalised in horizontal lines. Basically the top line in the frame is processed before the last line so there is a progressive lagg which creates a jello effect.

wait actualy thats the only drawback I found since everything else is fixable. for example the LCD viewer flare is fixable by buying a 100$ viewfinder adaptor. This is 100$ but its nothing compared to an adaptor kit with rods and lens.

 So with this "in depth" look from me about the pros and cons, I want to know what I am missing. THis is not an attempt to show that Im smarter than you for getting a DSLR, far from it! I want to know if I am missing anything that could make me reconsider this important investment.

thanks for your time!

May 16 2010 11:39AM
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*Fujative*
Posts: 8554 - Karma: 183
Most people never bring up the "jello" effect or rolling shutter. There is software for fixing it, but I never looking into it. I love my 5D I would say go for it. For audio look into getting a "JuciedLink" I'm going to buy one soon. Enjoy.
May 16 2010 12:09PM
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gordie.
Posts: 2014 - Karma: 84
im thinking of selling my 50D and buying a 7D.

the more i read, the more im convinced

i really want to talk to someone who actually uses it for photography though, because that would be it's primary use probably.
May 16 2010 12:18PM
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p.hawks
Posts: 2832 - Karma: 581
also on the 7D you get an amazing camera
18 megapixels at 8fps
May 16 2010 12:26PM
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butteredpretzel
Posts: 1484 - Karma: 845
threads
May 16 2010 12:52PM
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TomasAa
Posts: 585 - Karma: 699
Id say go for it! I love My 7d-t2i combo, and for audio use a zoom h4n or juicedlink. I  still have my canon xha1 though, mainly because I do a lot of tv/interviews.. But for shortfilms,  commercials, musicvids etc. Id pick up a DSLR!

Also I like the idea of PL-mounting the 7D, really expensive though but a Pl mount will give you access to some of the best 35mm cinema lenses out there!
May 16 2010 1:31PM
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zisforzachary
Posts: 879 - Karma: 87
++ karma on this thread, ive been thinking the exact same thing, i dont know if you saw my 7d edit thread earlier. I was looking for all the reasons NOT to buy one, because i was wondering the exact same thing, if they're so great, why isnt everyone switching to a video-capable dslr cam like the 7d?
May 16 2010 2:54PM
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J-Evs
Posts: 6387 - Karma: 1,615
are there any handles other than like a glidecam that will suit a dslr's needs while filming during skiing?
also
whats a good all around lens for making ski/skate edits?
May 16 2010 3:20PM
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1337
Posts: 31038 - Karma: 29,003
a glidecam 2000 would work pretty well, i don't fly one yet but am probably going to get one soon, I know paul b. uses one with his 7D. As for an all around lens, the 28-135 kit lens would be good if you are just starting out, but if you are willing to commit, the 17-40 4L lens is great, again, paul b. uses one and it great for all follow cams and other shots.
May 16 2010 5:14PM
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Jwenz
Posts: 8893 - Karma: 7,633
well not every kid going out and filming wants to put lots of effort (and from what i have heard filming dslr takes LOTS of effort to get what you want exactly). I know personally, i have an hvx, and there are just some days that you want to go out and film friends and cruise and make a fun vibed edit. Now in order to do this you have to switch of filmers and even with my camera it becomes an issue even with a few manual controls that effect lots of the images. Granted if i was filming all the time and had no interest in skiing or trying to progress I would for sure invest in a 7d or t2i or one of those dslrs...but for now I like how my camera can get a real dank and i mean REAL dank picture with almost no effort, and when i do put in some effort shit really comes out epic. See if I had a dslr I would have to put in that lots of effort all the time it seems to get a dank picture. I dont know, its really all personal prefernce as far as what you are using the camera for and whether or not you want to put in lots of effort.

You talk a lot of about features of the camera and yes a DSLR is much cheaper in the long run for the shallow DOF and what not, but the workflow for mycamera (p2 cards) couldnt be easier. Yes my camera retails at 6k but who is counting. I HAVE A HANDLE!!!

sorry for the rant. i dk, i like dslrs cause i see some of the shit that comes from them and its just fucking epic. but at this time I dont think i will get one for video. kthxbi
May 16 2010 5:38PM
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MatRich
Posts: 4789 - Karma: 1,812
good reply and I see what you mean. At first I was worried by the manageability of the cams with sports shooting but now I realised Im more interested in serious filmmaking so this is why I want to make the switch. Its true that p2 cards are a shit tonne more simple to manage, however I see it this way: p2 cards>DSLR> mini dv. Basically, even though p2 cards are the simplest in simplicity, the DSLR cards are still a good stretch from log capturing mini dv tapes and the hasle that comes with it. P2 seems to just be choose your clips, drag and drop. whereas DSLR seems to be choose your clips, convert them and drop. I am still saving the workload of dealing with timecode breaks, error files, queueing tape, the whole shitty process of capturing a tape!
May 17 2010 11:16AM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459
Simple solution.  Pick up a cheap HD cam to pass off for edits with friends.  Most will shoot 30p now.
http://www.circuitcity.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5682580&SRCCODE=CCDCNET&cm_mmc_o=2mHCjC2WHaCjCVqHCjCdwwp

Bang

May 17 2010 12:04PM
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MatRich
Posts: 4789 - Karma: 1,812
yah well im actualy making the switch from High quality dv to DSLR so I will keep my other cam for sports and simple shoots
May 17 2010 3:13PM
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gordie.
Posts: 2014 - Karma: 84
Man i don't know about you, but I personally have to fight to the teeth to keep the noise down on my HVX

mind you mine is used and fairly heavily used to that point. but it still produces amazing content.

plus i got it for a KILLER price, so i can't complain. it's a great camera.


i'd really like to see how it could work with a 7D, i think the two could really compliment each other. I'm hoping to upgrade my 50D soon, hopefully someone will buy it for a decent price
May 17 2010 3:28PM
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gordie.
Posts: 2014 - Karma: 84
The whole P2 system gets alot of acclaim in terms of organizing

while it is really a simple process to get your footage in the place it needs to be, the clips metadata and categorizing is done in such an awful way. If you're just using standard folder organization, you're left with hundreds of clips which sometimes fall out of order and have a seemingly incredibly illogical way of numbering.

besides that, p2 really is amazing to use. I can upload a full 32 gb of footage (a full card) in literally 15 minutes max.
May 17 2010 3:33PM
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eheath
Posts: 61098 - Karma: 118,247
How do you have problems with noise on your hvx?

And you know how to deal with the numbering problems? LABEL it sometimes amazes me how many people don't label clips sometimes...
May 17 2010 3:45PM
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gordie.
Posts: 2014 - Karma: 84
I can't believe you don't have noise problems! The HVX is known to be a noisy low-light camera without taking steps to reduce the noise. shooting in the dark with auto gain, anything except b. press and other things like high master ped creates stupid amounts of noise. if i had time i could shoot some comparison shots to show you on my camera specifically. it just tends to have noisy blacks i find. if you're shooting in the sun on a ski hill however, there's no low light noise whatsoever. it just looks absolutely awesome in the sun with a nice polarizer.

and if you mean labeling as in labeling manually, i do that, it's just a hassle. besides that there's no way to label the clips in the camera other than the sequential numbering. one of hte annoying problems though is that when you open the clips by their sequential numbers, it puts some out of order because of how the numbering is done. it's not a huge problem to avoid though.

i was meaning to ask you too, when you fell with your camera did you break your battery clips? i broke mine a couple months ago and made a pretty good velcro system to secure everything, just wondered if you did the same and found a better solution. not a chance im paying the like 450$ to get a new back console, and they're barely valuing the warranty at all now. i know you broke something, like the mic bracket or something, but was just wondering about that too.
May 17 2010 4:45PM
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CoachG
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 448
Anything except b? I'm kind of confused with what you mean here. Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't A and B just meant for personal pre-sets? And why use auto-gain? I've never had noise issues with an HVX when i take the time to properly adjust the settings manually.
May 17 2010 10:18PM
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eheath
Posts: 61098 - Karma: 118,247
Mine was already really worn out and my battery stays in but falls out if bumped, i used duct tape, it works like a charm.
May 17 2010 10:23PM
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Alkyy
Posts: 2839 - Karma: 149

^yeah id never use auto gain, i have an xh and its always a 0 or 3 if i can help it urban sometimes requires a boost to 6 but i try everything in my power not to let that happen. 

as for the thread.  I was very intrested in the switch, i purchased my camera before there was decent comperable dslrs, if i was to make the purchase now id go with a 7d, unfortunatlly at this point i think if and when i sell the xh im going to be done with it.  i honestly see next to no disadvantages to using a dslr as long as you have the time to set it up (im not speaking for experience but lugging around a rull rail system matte box follow focus eye piece and everything doesnt look fun) you have to really learn it and get all the nessisary add ons for it.

My big con for these cameras is the battery life when shooting video, i shot on a t2i (could be very differnt from the 7d) for about an hour one night and the battery was dead, not really an issue just have to factor in a battery grip or two when getting everything for it

May 17 2010 10:31PM
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gordie.
Posts: 2014 - Karma: 84
no you misunderstood. anything except b.PRESS. that wasnt a typo, it was part of the same sentence.


b. press, stands for black press. it basically just crushes the blacks giving you a roughly 40-50% low light noise reduction. it's pretty much a must for the HVX with it's noisy blacks.

and by A and B as personal presets, do you mean AWB- A and AWB- B? or the user 1, user2, etc. pre-sets? because those are the personal pre-sets you could say on the HVX, unless you mean something different.

and if you read again, i actually wrote:

"shooting in the dark with auto gain, anything except b. press and other things like high master ped creates stupid amounts of noise"

entailing that i would never, neeever use auto gain. it just looks terrible, like a friggin sandstorm. I was just listing the steps pretty much required to get clean blacks and low light footage with a fairly used HVX. there's some speculation that the high noise has been linked to age of the camera, but this isnt really justified.

also the model you have makes a big difference. lift up your viewfinder, underneath it does it say "HVX200A" or "HVX200P"? that has a large bearing on how your camera performs with noise as well.
May 17 2010 10:34PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459
7d and 5dmk2 have bigger batteries than the t2i.
May 17 2010 10:35PM
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eheath
Posts: 61098 - Karma: 118,247
And auto gain? really? im always at 0, always.
May 17 2010 10:38PM
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gordie.
Posts: 2014 - Karma: 84
i was forced to tape for a while, i don't know how you film often and deal with it. i shot all of 4 different occasions and was already fed up of the tape.

the velcro system is pretty good, i jsut got little dot velcro tabs that sit inside the hanger as well as on the battery itself, the only reason i ask is because theres been problems happening with people who use velcro and warm weather. can damage the batteries apparently or something of the sort. I'm trying to find a more permanent, not shitty solution.
May 17 2010 10:39PM
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Jwenz
Posts: 8893 - Karma: 7,633
i love my hvx and never really have noise problems unless its fucking pitch black out with no light and i am forced to use auto gain..hvx ftw. dslr is too much work for me :)
May 17 2010 11:12PM
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CoachG
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 448
Yeah that's what i meant and what i thought you were referring to. Now that you re-worded your statement i understand what you are saying.
May 17 2010 11:27PM
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eheath
Posts: 61098 - Karma: 118,247
I often reuse the same tape, but i keep a roll with me in my bag, takes 10 seconds to get a new strip, i can rip the correct length piece every time now haha.
May 17 2010 11:36PM
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Holte
Posts: 10730 - Karma: 7,744
You've clearly done your research, and I'll agree with most of your post, but I should point out that if you plan on shooting a lot of phrenetic handheld shots (especially with rapidly changing lighting), you should plan on spending a lot of time fixing rolling shutter issues in post. Don't underestimate the time it takes to fix rolling shutter issues.

The Foundry makes a great plugin for AE and Nuke called Rolling Shutter, but it still requires a lot of rotoscoping and spline work to avoid artifacting that the plugin causes on the hard edges of the objects in your shots. A ten second shot with significant rolling shutter takes me about an hour to fix, and I've fixed quite a few shots in the past year.

You're not going to find a digital camera that looks closer to 35mm film than a 5D/7D/1D, but their few problems do come at a price in post (and that's assuming you're a decent cinematographer).
May 18 2010 3:26PM
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A.Eberhard
Posts: 4426 - Karma: 415
Threads very interested in switching to DSLR.
May 18 2010 3:57PM
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DBeck
Posts: 1275 - Karma: 63
What about balance on a tripod? I've never used one, but I'd imagine DSLR's could get pretty front heavy. Does it feel like its any more work or hassle? I mean most things I've seen with DSLR's use pretty limited movement (also cuz of focus too, i know). Anyways I'm pretty happy with my DVX right now and have no intentions of getting rid of it anytime soon.
May 18 2010 8:29PM
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DBeck
Posts: 1275 - Karma: 63
sorry, kind of a small concern, but I could see it possibly being an issue for some people.
May 18 2010 8:32PM
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