Knee bindings

JSM

how would you compare my dynafit ft12s that weigh 2 pounds and tour to your knee binding?, i can release the FT 12 laterally with an ice axe or by kicking the heel with a heel thats out of the binding. they also release vertically because i ate shit and went into tele mode on them once.

also i am wondering if you are worried about lawsuits if someone blows their knee out with your binding on, there is a reason that ski companies say this binding doesnt help shit. its to avoid that thing called a lawsuit.

also you say your binding reduces pre release. salomon also used to say their bindings dont prerelease (914 era) and i felt like i would double eject on the regular in those bindings until they finally exploded.

like everyone has said you need to hook up some people on here. its a HUGE market. i have officially started a gear test program of independent companies that need help and exposure to an audience like the internet skiing forum world. I will send you an email to discuss some details if you have time.

thanks!
jon fay

in most cases i would want to try gears for myself after seeing your clothing thread
but you are too legit knee bindings... i would give this guy a try he will write a fair and good review on your products and we can finally see what your product can do for us...
you have nothing to lose because sorry to say right now... everyone on this thread is a bit skeptical of your bindings but if the review is good who knows your bindings might have a breakthrough in freestyle skiing

they could all hook me up with skis to test them on too, but it looks like smuggs wants to do somthing with bindings also so he can take them.

oh my bad, haha. ya if its all plastic that doesnt seem like itd hold up at all

plastics make it possible. most of your favorite bindings are mostly plastic like has already been mentioned. your ski boots are plastic. i have a few bindings in my quiver that are mostly plastic. though i prefer the longevity of an all metal binding like the fks. longevity = confidence.

bumping because i recently tore my ACL.

I REALLY would appreciate it if you, KneeBinding Representative, would step up and respond to the requests in this thread to provide a couple pairs of bindings to NS members for review.

You are a salesman. I understand this. Unfortunately, however, this makes it impossible for us to trust you on things such as how well these bindings will work for freestyle. This is why it is necessary for you to "sponsor" a few select, trusted NS members and let THEM write reviews for the rest of us on NS.

Personally, I like the idea of your binding, but it seems like it caters to recreational skiers more, and would not stand up to the abuses that the NS community puts on gear. I would love it if you would prove me wrong!

First let me say thanks John for responding to this thread.

Second...


Are you guys serious? You want him to just hand out bindings in their first year of production to random NSers? What makes you think you're oh so entitled?


I'm really disappointed some kids are so quick to judge something as trivial as a bindings durability without even seeing the product in person.

FKS bindings are all the rage, but to be honest, they're not that much better than any other high end bindings from salomon and tyrolia, I've ridden them.

And they DON'T save you from tearing your ACL. Bindings haven't really changed in 20 years, this company solves a big problem no one else is addressing and you guys shit all over it. Pathetic.

OK JSM. Its great to see you replying to this thread.

1) A couple people in this thread have seen them in person, and said they look reallycheap.

2) You're proving our point. We don't want to have to judge them without seeing them and seeing how well they work for park and backcountry, which is why we would like to have someone reputable and unbiased test them out in challenging terrain.

3) I am BY NO MEANS shitting on the bindings. I just tore my ACL, and am looking for anything that will help keep my knees in shape in the future. I would love for these bindings to work well, but I am slightly skeptical about their performance in expert freestyle skiing like we all do. Seriously, I will say it again, I really want these bindings to be sick, but unfortunately I can't tell until I've seen someone unaffiliated with the company post a good review, along with a video.

seems to me like a fks would do the same because of the turntable heel

your going to have to put a higher din range before 50% of ns will even give these a chance

Let me get this straight. You want this guy form KNEE to send you Bindings to "demo"? lol  hahahahaa

 Its like me contacting GM and Ford when they came out with the Airbag.. "hey can I try that Airbag thing out?" hahahaha 

Maybe thats something for MTV. :)  Lets throw Vito from Viva La Bam on them :) the ultimate test.

 I just blew my knee last week. Close call on Fischer Binding set at "8" Din. No joke.
I use to use LOOK PIVOTS (originals from 1993)... never exploded.. and yes they lasted this long..
(set at 8 Din".. had a few borderline pre-release.. but NEVER blew a knee.
I had a few falls after a few FAST SG turns on bumps/crud... but, I got right up and continued skiing like nothing happened.. it was really funny. Never took falls serious with those. As long as you dont become a tree hugger or some idiot gets in your way..

Note: There's a BIG difference between a Din 8 on a LOOK and a Fischer Free Flex Pro.

Going back to what i was saying. If I were to make a safety product.. that's supposed to help prevent something.. I would NOT give them out to Skiers and have them test them... to see if they can blowor break their knee..
It takes time of natural use and falls.. for the kneebindings to be tested.. if this guy improved on LOOK's design.. and invested all this money on marketing and selling it..  you would think that there was a lot of  R&D behind it.  Nothing is perfect. Nothing always works when you need it... but I am still walking without a limp after years of daredevil skiing on LOOKS. One thing that he is wrong about.. you CAN blow your knee by falling Back... They way it happend with me was I had a lot of G-force down hill... my body kept wanting to go down from momentum, but I cut fall with a strong hardcore turn and Compessed into the back of the ski and fell to my side... My head pointing up hill... i cam e to a stop but my body wanted to keep going down,,, the built up momentum kept putting a lot of force on my knees.. even after I came to a stop.

I might just buy a pair if I can slap them on my current skis.. take them out on the slush-snow.. and try some hard turns.. see what happens..   BTW: Fischer World Cup SG 193cm kick @$$!

Thanks for making a thread that just took up most of my time in class.

JSM, you should let someone from Newschoolers try them out. If they work, then you will gain a lot of customers from here.

Either you are like 14 or just pussy shit.

Welcome to NS.

First, no one here really cares if, "Fischer World Cup SG 193cm kick @$$!". Second, no one here will trust anything you say because you just joined and your first post is a rant. Third, it would not be very outrageous for a new company to give away or let people test their brand new products. Companies big, small, new and old do this all the time. Ski companies demo, beverage companies allow taste test and drug/contact companies give out samples all the time. BUT, these binders are 10 din and plastic. They are not made for the kind of skiing that is done in the NS community. That is why it does not make sense for NS to test the model that they have out right now.  This dude should not be on NS trying to market his product to us though until he has a binder to market to us. Rossi wouldn’t post about their carving skis. End Rant.

I'll try to make a twitter version next time.  The first 3 lines made the point the rest was info for JSM and people who can read. ;-)

From the way you talk you sound 14. it was a typo. GS not SG (obviously).. If you take a SG ski out on slush/crud like this and idiots in your way who want to smell the roses in the middle of the Black dianond slope (right under the horizon), your just looking for a few good accidents and a lynching..

I do have 210 ans 215.. but not taking them out in this kind of weather.

Before commenting on the way somebody types, maybe check the way you type first? Kind of a fail on your part.... Because at least I can spell properly.... NS even has a spell checker... so that must make you sound like a 10 year old eh?

Thanks for the welcome (i think).

 It's not a rant. and I don't care if you listen lol.  From what I hear, those who listen show signs of higher intelligence.  It's Darwin theory.. what works, works.. Making the right choice in the gear you buy and how you use it, will determine whether you (or anyone else) will be able to walk at the end of the season, (to say the least). God forbid! I wish the best of luck on the slopes to everyone!

Ski company DEMO things to get PERFORMANCE results in... not "how many legs did we break?"
If I had a Ski gear company, there's no way in hell would send out Bindings or Helmets and tell people to go to town... lol  your just asking for lawsuits their even with waivers.. no joke.. Ask any European what they think about us Americans and our lawsuits... e.g. "McDonalds and Hot Coffee" lol.

 I'm not saying KNEE is the SH!7!  I'm saying I had a close call after years.. of skiing.. I was emphasizing LOOK, not KNEE, if you read what I wrote.. LOOK saved my !!! many, many times.  What made me consider getting new FKS or KNEEs, is last weekend. KNEE does look like it has one additional release.. But I don't know.. if I want to go with a low din (and yes plastic)..  But the dude says the innards are Stainless steel and lighter.. that's what counts.. plastic aint gonna break cuz its gonna let you go before it does (in theory) from what I think. Unless of course you wanna throw them out the window at the pizza guy.. yea i'd stick with the FKS if you want more peperoni, next time. ;-P "dude!"

I think he was replying from what I saw.. If someone took a shot at me I'd stand up to them professionaly, too. wouldn't you?  -end essay

you got me there.
I meant what the person is saying, who cares about typos? you get the point,

Your posts are full of fail. 

Stop trying to redeem yourself (it's not working). 

Yea I wasn't thanking you. You have the dumbest posts in the whole thread. Of course, they did give me a good laugh.

You 3 got this confused with Pre-School. lol

I'm 15, and I dislocated my knee last winter. Lost 2 months of my season. I know it's "no joke", but these bindings are not made for freestyle skiing.

Why do all of you guys think that companies should send you their products to use and abuse for free? Companies do not need to prove themselves to the 'elite members of newschoolers.' They can let their products speak for themselves.

Just because one person managed to get a few outwear companies to send him a kit does not mean that every new and independent company needs to or will.

You obviously don't understand. Sending one of us product would HELP the company KneeBinding. Right now, KneeBinding is getting 0 sales from the NS community, because we all look and go, oh, DIN 10, plastic, new company, I'll pass. If, however, someone reputable tried them out and gave a good review, there is a good chance that a percentage of Newschoolers would buy them. This would be worth it for KneeBinding, because the profit from all the bindings bought by Newschoolers would far outweigh the loss of giving away one set of bindings to the initial tester. Do you understand now?

No, I completely understand. Kids on NS think that their reviews are so priceless that they think they deserve free gear to "review".

These bindings aren't marketed to the demographic of NS. Any sales generated from NS would be such a small percentage that it really wouldn't make a difference.

Haha did you even read my response? Let's think through this. Pretend KneeBindings cost $350, and they give away one pair. They are down $350. Now, let's say the bindings get noticed and approved of thanks to the review, and even 0.5% of all newschoolers buy them. There are 100000 members at least, so this would give them 500 sales. Assuming about a 10% profit margin (lowballing here, again) per binding, they will make 17500 dollars off of this. 17500 minus 350 equals $17,150 of pure profit. What about that is bad? Any sane business wants to make money and experience growth.

Not all 100,000 are active.

Ive stopped buying bindings, i use duct tape instead, much better for your knees and your steeze. Send 350$ to my paypal and ill let you demo my duct tape bindings.

Trew, LDC, Saga, and First Drop all gave out demos to be put to the test. I think its fair that this guy does as well, even if it is his first year, he should probably expect not to bring home a payload, this is where his company will make the most errors anyways. My grammar is horrible i just read that over myself abd im too tired to fix it.

Clothing costs are retardedly lower than hardgood (skis, boots, bindings, etc) costs, so it's a lot easier for those companies to do that but I still agree with what most people are saying here.

hmm, k i should have thought of that logical point. but yeah, i just think some sort of evidence or point of reliability would provide us with a lot more respect for his company. whether it is a product demo, or a team of respected skiers. plus, if his product is as awesome as he says it is, then its definitely a smart move on his part, i mean look at jiberish, they got this website on lockdown and i bet a hefty percentage of their total sales are to NS'ers.

btw. im so tired and stuff right now, if i say something stupid feel free to call it out.

i'm still waiting for this guys reply, these binding look innovative to say the least, but a product as an image is a lot different than a product that has been tested by somone you trust. i home this JSM guy comes back with some more answers

I know JSM and I was rather pleasantly surprised to see him on here (he's an older gent, so not the hippest of types).. He definitely is aware of some of the talked about shortcomings and his team in Northern Vermont (where the bindings are all made by the way) is probably whipping something up. If you want to, I would check out the website and send him an email. I bet he would come back on here if politely invited.

this. nobody is saying we are entitled to free product to test, or that we want to test how many knees can be blown with the knee binding.

nobody is going to buy a binding for park/bc skiing that is:
a) a "cheap feeling" binding and doesnt seem durable
b) employees in shops that carry the binding say they havent sold any/havent sold any to park/bc skiers
c) there is zero park/bc testing with results as far as any of us know
d) there are cheaper alternatives that are proven to work for the kinds of skiing that we do.

i am not trying to make a hateful comment, but post some honest feelings that i have about the product. "dont knock it until you try it"? yeah, i would if the marketing and presentation of the binding made me want to go out and spend my money on it rather than any other freestyle oriented binding.

in addition, this binding may not be suitable for park/bc skiing, but we have the chairman of the company saying that it is better at preventing knee injury than the most popular park/bc oriented bindings on newschoolers, and they are just as effective at keeping you on your skis when you want to be.

my last point, Mr. Springer-Miller if you indeed want to market your binding towards our crowd, i suggest making a bit of a stronger effort, no offence. there are countless threads every day with kids asking "what binding" and i have yet to see anyone suggest knee bindings. if your product does work effectively in a park/bc skiing setting, then by marketing your binding more towards ns you will be attracting more customers and create a larger market for your product.

again, no hate on your product, these are just my feelings towards them with the little knowledge we (newschoolers) have about your product in regards to use in a park/bc/freestyle environment.

threads for the response

yo man relax its not like he can produce a team to test them on the get-go. But I do agree with you and team of skiers to test them would be legit marketing. I am hesitant to see if they would work for experienced park riders seeing that the binding din only goes to 12. Personally I like a pretty rugged binding like markers or look/rossi pivots.

So you guys want to know how these bindings hold up for park skiing demands? Here ya go.

lol inb4 someone tears their acl using these pieces of shit.

Finally. This should have been here at the beginning of this thread.

Probably because you post like an illiterate toss-pot.

JSM deserves some huge props for coming on here, defending his product, and not turning it into a total shit fest.

Lets face it, debate on this site is downright brutal and turns into a huge shit fest that can rattle even the most seasoned NS users.

He came on here and tried to explain as best he could (cause lets face it that shits tough to do on here) and kept his cool, even when some people didn't.

I understand for the most part what he said and I do have my questions (maybe because I have been riding/repping head/tyrolia for a few years now). I would like to see some videos on the engineering of these and try them out before I make a final decision. But for the most part I feel from what I read that these things are solid. Maybe not for our demographic but there is definitely a huge demographic that would love these (think the older folk with less skiing ability and worn body parts, or less athletic).

I bet they could make a binding that even NS could love, but right now thats not their focus. Nothing kills companies quicker than expanding too quickly.

So JSM keep doing what your doing, I think your on the right track. Do whats best business wise, which will probably mean a freeride binding a few years down the road. But don't rush it just to placate us. I understand we are not your target demo.

a gem among a shitstorm +k

threads old, i know, but i want to add. the knee binding guy and i exchanged some emails a while back with me politely pointing out every concievable problem from recognizable names supporting the binding to aesthetics to marketing strategy, he had great counterpoints, and after a few emails, i sort of realized that the only point that he had that wasnt a draw, was that anyone that would qualify as a recognizable name to us, would crank the din and render his product pointless. that led me to the conclusion that we are just not his target demographic and the reason we have so many problems with them is because they arent made for us.

old ladies dont complain about the lack of ankle support on a skateboard.

Hello again to all - this is John Springer-Miller, Chairman of KneeBinding, Inc. with an open letter to all NewSchoolers.

I have previously posted some factual information here (at NS) about our bindings. My goal has been to clarify what we do, and why we do it. In the interim, we have heard from many of you, individually, through our website, through e-mail and even by phone. For the most part, these conversations have been solid, constructive discussions, and we greatly appreciate them. Your questions, as well as your conclusions, tell us a lot about the things you care about. Please keep the feedback coming. KneeBinding’s mission is to make the sport safer without compromising performance. The company came into being specifically because the knee injury rate has become such an epidemic, and because none of the other binding companies have done ANYTHING about it for thirty years. This is a tall order - especially when confronting all of you. We work constantly to try to get the right balance between release and retention. And so do you. When you decide to crank your heels up one more setting, you are choosing to move toward increasing retention at the expense of release. In most cases, this is at the expense of safety. You have CHOSEN to increase the risk to your knees in order to get just a little more retention. But you really have nothing but “gut feel” to help you choose when you have too much retention. It can be very frustrating when your bindings release during a trick – especially when you can’t feel any reason that they should release. So, you crank ‘em higher. What else can you do? A great many of you do this – and so, as a group, you experience a significantly higher knee injury rate. Generally, one binding set at a DIN of 9 will release with the same overall force as another binding set at a DIN of 9. And - the DIN setting is really the only tool YOU have to increase retention. But there is a LOT more to retention than the DIN setting. But we would argue that you have to increase the DIN on most ordinary bindings (all brands other than KneeBinding) in order to overcome design weaknesses in those bindings. We engineered a binding that doesn’t have the same pre-release issues that ordinary bindings have. In doing so, we created a binding that would allow you to ski at safer DIN settings. The KneeBinding boot platform has a lot of advantages. It is the ONLY one on the market that is, front and back, the full width of the boot sole. While others are curved, uneven, moveable surfaces, ours is hard, flat, and straight. It gets you up off the snow – with the highest rotation point for brakes in the industry, and brake ends that fold in higher than any other binding. We also have the widest screw platform in the industry – even more important as skis get wider. We offer a true toe-height adjustment, eliminating the kind of slop found in “automatic” toe height adjustments, and a variety of other engineered advantages. All of this dramatically improves leverage edge grip, and reduces unwanted release. And THAT means skiers can ski at lower (safer!) DIN settings, without coming out unnecessarily. As always – we aren’t hard-selling. We’ll tell you what we’re up to, but you’ll make your own choices. It isn’t easy to start a new binding company. It is especially difficult in the current economic climate. But we have succeeded.

I'll buy these bindings when they come out with a warranty that states in the case that i due tear an acl while using this product they cover the medical bills. Or i'll consider them after someone has taking them into the park, off some cliffs, and submits a review or video. But it's nice to see a company on the site forums. :)

JSM here:

Dear John,

 I wasnt being serious nor do i expect for you to have such a warranty. I was merely just joking around but i really would like to see these bindings in the park before i'm going to drop cash on a pair. Also would like to take the time to say thanks for trying to improve the sport and reduce injuries. Keep up the good work.